Abortion: Ayn Rand Institute

[FFC]

If that is the case we should set off a nuke and blow the whole world up since we are told in the bible that we are all conceived in sin.

Then why is it a good thing we send certain people to jail? If we are all sinners, shouldn't we all go to jail, then? Or do you disagree with the judicial system?

Is it irrational to think that we can determine morality based on the situation? Why do we have to make so many people suffer to conform to what one ideal says?

You are saying that we would be doing a service to society by killing the offspring of rape victims. I'm just saying that with that fatalistic logic then everyone should be killed.

The judicial system convicts and sentences those who break the law...not those who could potentially break the law.

Also I agree with you. We shouldn't make so many people suffer to conform to an ideal...especially innocent unborn babies. However we as Christians do not conform to an ideal we conform to the living word of God. You can do what you want with that, but I as a Christian would rather answer to you than fall into the hands of the living God with murder of His little ones on my conscience.

[bizzt]

If that is the case we should set off a nuke and blow the whole world up since we are told in the bible that we are all conceived in sin.

Then why is it a good thing we send certain people to jail? If we are all sinners, shouldn't we all go to jail, then? Or do you disagree with the judicial system?

Is it irrational to think that we can determine morality based on the situation? Why do we have to make so many people suffer to conform to what one ideal says?

You are saying that we would be doing a service to society by killing the offspring of rape victims. I'm just saying that with that fatalistic logic then everyone should be killed.

The judicial system convicts and sentences those who break the law...not those who could potentially break the law.

Also I agree with you. We shouldn't make so many people suffer to conform to an ideal...especially innocent unborn babies. However we as Christians do not conform to an ideal we conform to the living word of God. You can do what you want with that, but I as a Christian would rather answer to you than fall into the hands of the living God with murder of His little ones on my conscious.

AGREED AND AMEN!

[RoyLennigan]

However we as Christians do not conform to an ideal we conform to the living word of God.

I don't care if i get banned from this site, I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes. In no way is the bible the absolute word of god. It can be the individual interpretation of the word of god, as experienced by those who were there. But even if god himself wrote the pages in the bible, it would still only be as true as the individual ideals of the person reading it. You cannot gain truth from the bible. The bible puts truth in order.

The most important thing to remember when reading the bible is that the images and ideals that you get out of it derive from your own experience, not from the bible itself. Reading and comprehending are a way to associate memories in different orders. But the information comes from your own experience. In this way, it is impossible to read anything, even the word of god, without interpreting it in your own way.

The only information that is absolutely true are unobserved action and reaction, but as soon as it is experienced it becomes interpretation.

If you truly want to hear the words from god himself, then listen to the natural rhythms of the human plight, and listen to the way that all things relate to each other. God called for the bible so that humans would have something to cling to and call their ideal. We would be forced to take part in its aid to communal living merely by our reverence towards it. But we do not need it. We did not need it before. Perhaps it is here simply for us to learn, as a collective species, that we do not need it. perhaps it is merely a stepping stone in our path of advancement. perhaps we do need it, but we are missing some other vital piece of the puzzle, something not in words.

I don't know. But what I do know is that to cling to only one ideal and not even look around you for more, that is stagnation--rot.

Sometimes you need the curtains thrown wide open, even if the light hurts your eyes from being in the dark so long...

[FFC]

I don't care if i get banned from this site, I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes. In no way is the bible the absolute word of god. It can be the individual interpretation of the word of god, as experienced by those who were there. But even if god himself wrote the pages in the bible, it would still only be as true as the individual ideals of the person reading it. You cannot gain truth from the bible. The bible puts truth in order.

The most important thing to remember when reading the bible is that the images and ideals that you get out of it derive from your own experience, not from the bible itself. Reading and comprehending are a way to associate memories in different orders. But the information comes from your own experience. In this way, it is impossible to read anything, even the word of god, without interpreting it in your own way.

It is true that people can get different messages and ideals when reading the bible, some even diametrically opposed to it's message...such as your view on killing babies of rape victims. However most of what is written in it are not suggestions up for the vote of the individual.

You are obviously not a believer in the one true God who makes Himself known through His holy pages, so I am not surprised that you spend so much energy trying to tear it down. You can do nothing else and be true to your own personal ideals.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

[YLTYLT]

from: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... b0007.html

If an unborn child seems at greater risk of being deprived or abused because of his or her socio-economic situation, he or she may grow up to commit crimes. For this reason, it is beneficial (certainly for society, anyway) that these children be aborted. We don't know that children in this category will grow up to commit crimes, mind you, and we don't know how serious their crimes might be. Still, we'd better execute them. And this is all because somebody else was judged likely to beat them or deny them the latest Nikes for Christmas.

I might be accused of exaggeration here; but Dr. Morgentaler probably wouldn't think so. In the Vancouver Sun article, he argued Paul Bernardo, Clifford Olson, Adolf Hitler, and Josef Stalin all fit the profile, and that in such cases, “prevention is better than a cure.”

Unfortunately for social theorists such as Dr. Morgentaler, one can cite other notables who fit the future criminal profile, but who, thank God, were not aborted.

Like the boy whose parents had 14 children already, and lived in grinding poverty.
Like the boy whose mother had tuberculosis, and whose siblings were disabled and ill.
Like the girl whose mother was raped at the age of 13.
Like the boy whose teenage mother found herself pregnant, but not by her fiancé.

The first child was the great Methodist evangelist John Wesley the second was Ludwig van Beethoven; the third was gospel singer Ethel Waters; and the fourth was none other than Jesus Christ.

Anyone who may be considering abortion because if was out of wedlock, should consider who their unborn child may become???!!!!! Remember, God uses those that do not have the greatest advantage.

Which of course may a mute arguement, because it could very well be anyone considering abortion has not trusted the word of God, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread:

1 Corinthians 1:18 says "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

[godslanguage]

I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes

You have, indeed, but make sure you do one thing though, open up your eyes!

[bizzt]

However we as Christians do not conform to an ideal we conform to the living word of God.

I don't care if i get banned from this site, I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes. In no way is the bible the absolute word of god. It can be the individual interpretation of the word of god, as experienced by those who were there. But even if god himself wrote the pages in the bible, it would still only be as true as the individual ideals of the person reading it. You cannot gain truth from the bible. The bible puts truth in order.

The most important thing to remember when reading the bible is that the images and ideals that you get out of it derive from your own experience, not from the bible itself. Reading and comprehending are a way to associate memories in different orders. But the information comes from your own experience. In this way, it is impossible to read anything, even the word of god, without interpreting it in your own way.

The only information that is absolutely true are unobserved action and reaction, but as soon as it is experienced it becomes interpretation.

If you truly want to hear the words from god himself, then listen to the natural rhythms of the human plight, and listen to the way that all things relate to each other. God called for the bible so that humans would have something to cling to and call their ideal. We would be forced to take part in its aid to communal living merely by our reverence towards it. But we do not need it. We did not need it before. Perhaps it is here simply for us to learn, as a collective species, that we do not need it. perhaps it is merely a stepping stone in our path of advancement. perhaps we do need it, but we are missing some other vital piece of the puzzle, something not in words.

I don't know. But what I do know is that to cling to only one ideal and not even look around you for more, that is stagnation--rot.

Sometimes you need the curtains thrown wide open, even if the light hurts your eyes from being in the dark so long...

So let me get this straight you are saying that the Bible is no longer the Standard of Truth but WE become the standard of Truth based upon what the Bible Says.

First of all
Psalm 19:7-9 - "The law of the Lord is perfect ... the testimony of the Lord is sure ... the commandment of the Lord is pure ... the judgments of the Lord are true forever."
John 17:17 - "Thy word is truth."

So the Bible therefore lies to us by saying that it is the Truth. Why be a Christian then? The Bible first is truth by the sheer earthly things found in it! The Small Details that Archealogists have found. The Old Testament has been the most Scrutinized Text ever yet so many Archealogy digs have proven over and Over and Over again that it speaks of great Detail. So why should we believe in the History of the Bible and not believe in the Divine nature of the Bible?

[bizzt]

Speaking of Archeaology here is a cool Biblical Narrative
http://www.baseinstitute.org/malta.html

[FFC]

So the Bible therefore lies to us by saying that it is the Truth. Why be a Christian then? The Bible first is truth by the sheer earthly things found in it! The Small Details that Archealogists have found. The Old Testament has been the most Scrutinized Text ever yet so many Archealogy digs have proven over and Over and Over again that it speaks of great Detail. So why should we believe in the History of the Bible and not believe in the Divine nature of the Bible?

It certainly has and continues to stand the test of time. Thanks, Bizzt.

[RoyLennigan]

It is true that people can get different messages and ideals when reading the bible, some even diametrically opposed to it's message...such as your view on killing babies of rape victims. However most of what is written in it are not suggestions up for the vote of the individual.

You are obviously not a believer in the one true God who makes Himself known through His holy pages, so I am not surprised that you spend so much energy trying to tear it down. You can do nothing else and be true to your own personal ideals.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

How so like your kind to put words in my mouth (and by 'kind' I do not mean christians). This is the greatest reason for why so many non-believers are disgusted by you. Because you don't understand them and so you automatically start putting your own ideas to what they say. Do I direct attacks upon your person? No, I try desperately not to judge because I like to adhere to the most important lessons Jesus brought to us. Instead of despising, ridiculing, judging, punishing, and otherwise being not nice to those who I disagree with, I try to understand them and see where my talents may be of service to them. But I also look to see if their own talents can help me as well. I am not nearly as strong as Jesus, though, so I will fall.

And don't tell me I am not a believer in the 'One true god'. The only person who can say that is myself. No one on this planet has authority over who believes in what. Or are you an orthodox catholic? Do you disagree with the actions of Martin Luther? If so, then I apologize and I will let you believe whatever it is you want to.

I would never want to tear down the Bible or the beliefs of those who believe in it. I would only try to liberate those from ideals that are oppressive and destructive and against the main teachings of the Lord. Those teachings you cannot attain from reading the Bible alone. Belief in the bible is a relationship with the living, changing world. The lessons and meanings don't change, but your actions and ideals must to deal with the change from situation to situation.

I do not think the words of the bible are foolish. I think the actions of many who read them are, though.

[RoyLennigan]

I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes

You have, indeed, but make sure you do one thing though, open up your eyes!

Thank you, I try to. I only ask that any criticism be constructive. No one will listen to advice if you are condescending about it.

[RoyLennigan]

So let me get this straight you are saying that the Bible is no longer the Standard of Truth but WE become the standard of Truth based upon what the Bible Says.

We are only the standard truth only for ourselves. What was written in the bible was said with certain intentions. But those intentions are now lost in time. When reading it, you can only percieve your own intentions and experiences within those words. The bible changes us based on what we have experienced in our lives.

First of all
Psalm 19:7-9 - "The law of the Lord is perfect ... the testimony of the Lord is sure ... the commandment of the Lord is pure ... the judgments of the Lord are true forever."
John 17:17 - "Thy word is truth."

So the Bible therefore lies to us by saying that it is the Truth. Why be a Christian then? The Bible first is truth by the sheer earthly things found in it! The Small Details that Archealogists have found. The Old Testament has been the most Scrutinized Text ever yet so many Archealogy digs have proven over and Over and Over again that it speaks of great Detail. So why should we believe in the History of the Bible and not believe in the Divine nature of the Bible?

Notice that the line does not say anything about the legitimacy of any text. The words spoken, as percieved by the writer, are true. But they are words nonetheless.

The bible does not lie, it cannot lie--it has no intents.

But let me tell you how it can be true historically and divinely. The way that humans write is by metaphor. I am using metaphors right now to convey a message. I cannot convey anything more than you already know, though. I can only bring it to the surface--force the connections that are already present in your mind. The way we have used these metaphors has been an ongoing evolution since the start of language. The metaphors that are used in the bible are of an era long gone. And we wonder what is meant in some passages because we no longer have that connection to what the metaphors are relating to in the world around us. Because we are looking at dead metaphors (as in, no one relates to them anymore) we would have to figure out all those things again, using our own set of modern metaphors. Perhaps we are blind to the obvious acts of god because we are looking for a literal relation to those old metaphors.

The power of God is the most obvious thing around us. We just take it for granted.

[bizzt]

We are only the standard truth only for ourselves.

How so? To get this out of the Way do you believe in Absolute truth?

What was written in the bible was said with certain intentions. But those intentions are now lost in time.

I Disagree. Those intentions are still quite clear. Example the 10 Commandments. Most had their Place in Time However many stand the test of time. All are clear if you know the History behind it like the website I posted.

When reading it, you can only percieve your own intentions and experiences within those words. The bible changes us based on what we have experienced in our lives.

I agree to a certain extent however The Bible holds us to a Standard and whether we interpret something a different way does not mean that the Standard Changes.

[FFC]

How so like your kind to put words in my mouth (and by 'kind' I do not mean christians). This is the greatest reason for why so many non-believers are disgusted by you.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, Roy. I'm taking your words and comparing them to the bible, the word of God, a Christian's final standard and they contradict them. Quite frankly I don't care whether you and every other non believer is disgusted with me. I expect it. I expect ignorance for the sake of self justification. I also don't care whether you think I am a Christian or not because I know that I am and I know who and what I believe.

What I am disgusted by are people who try to tear down the bible and label it subjective so that they can feel free to do and act however they like and feel like they have some stamp of approval on it. Whether that is what you are doing I don't know...but it looks like it from where I am sitting.

God will deal with me if I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. I'm just obeying Jesus and judging you by the fruit of your words and I see ideas that are diametrically opposed to those of God and His word.

[Byblos]

I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes

I'd like to comment on the above statement too. Look no further than what you've stated above Roy to see why some people might find you a bit condescending. When I read that I thought how dare he say something like that? Who does he think he is? More than that, who does he think we are to need our eyes opened for us? You may not have intended it that way but that's how it came across.

We don't believe in God's word because we must. We believe it because we choose to. It is the absolute truth against which all truths must be measured, otherwise truth is meaningless. Morality must have a ruler against which it is sized, otherwise morality becomes subjective as clearly demonstrated by your abortion stance. This is not an insult Roy, it is merely stating a fact. In the absence of absolute morality who decides what is moral and what is not and on what basis? Why would child molestation, euthanasia, or even bestiality not be perfectly moral? Where do we draw the line and who decides? Our eyes are wide open, Roy and we choose to believe. Is that such a hard concept to comprehend in this age of relativism?

God bless,

Byblos.