Abortion: Ayn Rand Institute

[RoyLennigan]

We are only the standard truth only for ourselves.

How so? To get this out of the Way do you believe in Absolute truth?

From my or your perspective, no. From god's perspective, yes.

As a human, we are limited in our awareness of everything around us. Because of this, we will never know the pure truth of anything. As a human, we can only know ourselves, and even then not so well. This is why I say that no one can find truth in the bible. But god, in being the whole universe, is able to know himself, and so he knows absolute truth.

What was written in the bible was said with certain intentions. But those intentions are now lost in time.

I Disagree. Those intentions are still quite clear. Example the 10 Commandments. Most had their Place in Time However many stand the test of time. All are clear if you know the History behind it like the website I posted.

They are somewhat clear concerning aspects of society that existed at the time it was written. But today, society has become so convoluted and complex that we are decieved in relating the bible directly to our modern lives. If we still lived like they did back then, it would be easier, but still not crystal clear.

When reading it, you can only percieve your own intentions and experiences within those words. The bible changes us based on what we have experienced in our lives.

I agree to a certain extent however The Bible holds us to a Standard and whether we interpret something a different way does not mean that the Standard Changes.

But unlike what many people here seem to think, that Standard is not the details such as the ten commandments, it is the inherent theme in jesus' teachings. To find better clarity, look at the bigger picture, not at the minute details.

[RoyLennigan]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, Roy. I'm taking your words and comparing them to the bible, the word of God, a Christian's final standard and they contradict them.

Really?

You are obviously not a believer in the one true God who makes Himself known through His holy pages, so I am not surprised that you spend so much energy trying to tear it down. You can do nothing else and be true to your own personal ideals.

Sure looks like you are putting words into my mouth here. I am not these things you say I am at all. It is reasons like this misunderstanding that lead me to believe you cannot extract truth from mere words.

Quite frankly I don't care whether you and every other non believer is disgusted with me. I expect it. I expect ignorance for the sake of self justification. I also don't care whether you think I am a Christian or not because I know that I am and I know who and what I believe.

I too expect ignorance for the sake of self-justification, and that is what I see from you. You still misunderstand me. Who's to say I am a non-believer? Have I said it outright? When I said "(and by 'kind' I do not mean christians)" I did not mean that I didn't take you for a christian. I meant that your kind was not limited to just christians; there are many that will jump to conclusions before trying to understand what others say.

What I am disgusted by are people who try to tear down the bible and label it subjective so that they can feel free to do and act however they like and feel like they have some stamp of approval on it. Whether that is what you are doing I don't know...but it looks like it from where I am sitting.

Again, I am not trying to tear down the bible. What have I said that makes you think this? You are still just putting words in my mouth without fully realizing what I said.

The bible itself cannot be subjective. It says what it says and we cannot dispute the little symbols that mean oh so much to us funny humans. What is subjective are the thoughts and associations that come to any one person's mind when they see those little symbols in that certain order. I do not say this so I am "free to do and act however I like". I say this because my realizations force me to. I say this because I believe that the bible can do more good if people know that they have to relate it to real and subjective experiences instead of taking it as absolute truth. The bible tells how we can live peacefully together and lean upon one another to fill in others' weaknesses with our skills as they do the same for us. But we can only properly know how to do that if we figure out how the world around us works without it. If the actions of humanity were a paint-by-number picture, then the key that shows the numbers with their respective colors would be the bible and the colors would be the world around us.

God will deal with me if I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. I'm just obeying Jesus and judging you by the fruit of your words and I see ideas that are diametrically opposed to those of God and His word.

I'd rather look outside directly at god's work than read a book of god's word as translated and re-translated by humans. God created all that surrounds us, so I figure that maybe I can be closer to God's truth if I observe his work directly.

[RoyLennigan]

I'd rather attempt to open up at least one person's eyes

I'd like to comment on the above statement too. Look no further than what you've stated above Roy to see why some people might find you a bit condescending. When I read that I thought how dare he say something like that? Who does he think he is? More than that, who does he think we are to need our eyes opened for us? You may not have intended it that way but that's how it came across.

We don't believe in God's word because we must. We believe it because we choose to. It is the absolute truth against which all truths must be measured, otherwise truth is meaningless. Morality must have a ruler against which it is sized, otherwise morality becomes subjective as clearly demonstrated by your abortion stance. This is not an insult Roy, it is merely stating a fact. In the absence of absolute morality who decides what is moral and what is not and on what basis? Why would child molestation, euthanasia, or even bestiality not be perfectly moral? Where do we draw the line and who decides? Our eyes are wide open, Roy and we choose to believe. Is that such a hard concept to comprehend in this age of relativism?

God bless,

Byblos.

I am sorry if I sound condescending, it was not my intent. I sometimes get fed up with how so many people (everyone, not just christians) become so stuck in the rut of their lifestyle and thinking. It blinds them to the greater truth, which I think is what the bible alludes to (It can only allude, because allusion is the quickest path in language to functioning truth).

I say open your eyes because we don't rely on other people's perceptions as much as we should, or even at all in many cases. But we also can't because so many people purposefully lie. If we knew when they were being sincere, and we relied on their perceptions as they relied on ours, then we could become smarter and better able to relate the truths alluded to in the bible with the truth around us (the living world).

I know that morality is subjective, but that that doesn't mean we can choose any path we'd like. There is always cause and effect. Without the bible or knowledge of God's word, the best we would have, as far as morality goes, would be to weigh our inherent intent and goals with our predictive knowledge of cause and effect and then choose which cause (action) will bring the desired effect. But we have the bible and we have the word of other people around us who have experienced what we have not. With this, we can more acurately gauge what actions to take for a successful communal lifestyle.

But believers in the bible should also be wary of the teachings that tell us not to judge others and not to be unkind (let alone oppressive or descriminatory or even forceful) towards those that believe in actions other than those condoned in the bible. Because if morality is relative, and if we do have free-will, then they should be allowed to do as they please, as long as it doesn't affect us directly.

But again, there is an exception. Because there are other people out there who don't know there are people like us. There are people like that who are oppressed by people who don't care, or have a different morality. The oppressed need to be saved, or they need to stand up for themselves.

[FFC]

I too expect ignorance for the sake of self-justification, and that is what I see from you. You still misunderstand me. Who's to say I am a non-believer? Have I said it outright?

Then prove me wrong, Roy. So far I'm reading a lot of humanistic secularism with a side of new age thought. You make it very easy for me to "misunderstand" you. Maybe non-Christian is more appropriate. You obviously believe in something.

[Gman]

I'd rather look outside directly at god's work than read a book of god's word as translated and re-translated by humans. God created all that surrounds us, so I figure that maybe I can be closer to God's truth if I observe his work directly.

So what are you saying here Roy? Are you saying that since the Bible has been re-translated by humans so many times that it is invalid now?

Also what is God's truth? Please explain...

[RoyLennigan]

Then prove me wrong, Roy. So far I'm reading a lot of humanistic secularism with a side of new age thought. You make it very easy for me to "misunderstand" you. Maybe non-Christian is more appropriate. You obviously believe in something.

I, as a personal rule, do not subscribe to any 'official' philosophy (including religions and sciences). I try to experience with as little initial interpretation as possible and later relate that experience to articles, literature and scripture that I might read.

I find that, in person, I rarely have ever upset anyone. Most people I meet I either regard neutrally, or become friends with. I did not read in a book how to live like I do, nor did I get it from any impersonal research. Maybe I got it just from my parents, or maybe I picked it up from observing so much conflict through school.

Either way, these things that I feel so naturally inclined to do, seem to agree with parts of a lot of different philosophies. I find it in the bible, I find it in articles about evolution, I find it in the lifestyles of primitive natives, I find it almost anywhere. But it is shrouded by many other details that garble the true message--that inherent relationship throughout all humanity that strives for peace.

Perhaps if we look for the similarities in everything instead of the differences, then we can agree more.

[RoyLennigan]

So what are you saying here Roy? Are you saying that since the Bible has been re-translated by humans so many times that it is invalid now?

Also what is God's truth? Please explain...

I'm saying that it has been retranslated many times. And that the individual translators have written it with their own idioms, instead of the ones originally written with. This changes the original meaning, even if slightly. This does not mean its invalid now, though. It just means that we shouldn't get so caught up in arguing about details and quoting lines. It should be told as a whole story--a grand story of our ancestry that gives ultimate examples on how we should live together.

It should not be taught as a rule book that is absolute. When it is used as such, the absolute rules that are imprinted on the children do not come from god himself, they come from the preacher teaching it.

God's truth is the world that we live in. I look to that world to find my answers. But it is difficult because we live percieve only effects on our body, not the actual world we live in.

[FFC]

Perhaps if we look for the similarities in everything instead of the differences, then we can agree more.

Perhaps, Roy, but at what expence? Perhaps truth? I can agree with the Devil in more areas than I like to admit sometimes but it doesn't make him right. It doesn't impart truth. It just shows what a weak loser I am. BTW, I'm not equating you with the Devil. I know that God loves you.

Thank God I know personally the one who is The truth. In John 14:6 it says "Jesus is The way, The truth, and The life and no man comes to the Father but by Him." I hope you see what that means some day.

[Gman]

I'm saying that it has been retranslated many times. And that the individual translators have written it with their own idioms, instead of the ones originally written with. This changes the original meaning, even if slightly.

You should read this link:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

This does not mean its invalid now, though. It just means that we shouldn't get so caught up in arguing about details and quoting lines.

Why not? Also what details are you referring to? I don't understand...

It should be told as a whole story--a grand story of our ancestry that gives ultimate examples on how we should live together.

Ok I agree, but then I would need to quote lines from it...

It should not be taught as a rule book that is absolute. When it is used as such, the absolute rules that are imprinted on the children do not come from god himself, they come from the preacher teaching it.

Why? It is a rule book.. There are do's and dont's and consequences for living in sin... Have you ever read the 10 commandments before given by God?

God's truth is the world that we live in. I look to that world to find my answers. But it is difficult because we live percieve only effects on our body, not the actual world we live in.

I don't think looking at the world will give you all your answers... Since we are spiritual, we need to be fed spiritually as well.. And sometimes only God can fulfill that need...

[bizzt]

God's truth is the world that we live in. I look to that world to find my answers. But it is difficult because we live percieve only effects on our body, not the actual world we live in.

Tell me how the World gives you your Answers?

If the Bible is truth why should I not listen to the words of Jesus who said

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Paul said that even those who have not heard the gospel can know God through Creation HOWEVER he mentioned the Hearing of the Gospel before knowing God Through Creation.

[RoyLennigan]

Perhaps if we look for the similarities in everything instead of the differences, then we can agree more.

Perhaps, Roy, but at what expence? Perhaps truth? I can agree with the Devil in more areas than I like to admit sometimes but it doesn't make him right. It doesn't impart truth. It just shows what a weak loser I am. BTW, I'm not equating you with the Devil.

Right, you can agree with someone without following their path, but that is like loving--like understanding. A christian should be able to love the devil and pity him for his weakness to overcome sin. Or am I wrong?

I know that God loves you.

Thank you. This is the kind of thing that I am speaking of when referring to Jesus' message as a whole, instead of picking at the details. See, you, as a christian or even as a human being, are genuinely compassionate towards your fellows, even if you don't understand them. But I also know that it is very hard to overcome yourself to follow in Jesus' footsteps. When the bible speaks of our sins, I think of our selfish instincts. It is difficult to overcome our nature to change our nature.

Thank God I know personally the one who is The truth. In John 14:6 it says "Jesus is The way, The truth, and The life and no man comes to the Father but by Him." I hope you see what that means some day.

But what if I feel like I've found that same truth in a different place. I mean, not about Jesus--the only way to find him is through the bible--but I mean God and that feeling of just belonging and being in harmony with everything? What if the bible isn't the only place to reach that?

[RoyLennigan]

God's truth is the world that we live in. I look to that world to find my answers. But it is difficult because we live percieve only effects on our body, not the actual world we live in.

Tell me how the World gives you your Answers?

If the Bible is truth why should I not listen to the words of Jesus who said

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Paul said that even those who have not heard the gospel can know God through Creation HOWEVER he mentioned the Hearing of the Gospel before knowing God Through Creation.

Jesus says nothing (in that line) about the greatness of the world itself, only about "he that is in the world". Perhaps he is speaking of your soul being greater than your physical body. Or perhaps he is saying God is in you, and he is greater than your limited perception of the 'outside'.

I see a greater harmony in the natural flow of things, without the deception that man includes all-too-often in his designs and actions. In nature there is no sin--all is as it should be, even as it changes. I like that.

As humans, we are constantly trying to conform all around us into what we see with our own eyes. But we only see so little. Nature conforms, but is all--so it is not limited to only what it sees. It reveals the grand nature of God through his creation directly, instead of through words meant only for us to hear.

[RoyLennigan]

I'm saying that it has been retranslated many times. And that the individual translators have written it with their own idioms, instead of the ones originally written with. This changes the original meaning, even if slightly.

You should read this link:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

It is interesting. This kind of thing makes me want to go into theological research myself. I am very interested (as well as blessed with skill) in languages. Having tentatively picked up a couple languages already, I know that words just cannot be translated from language to language and mean exactly the same as they were written. The idioms and metaphorical relationships with the actual world can only be explained in that particular culture as they were written. But I also know that there are dedicated people out there who look for those unspoken meanings.

This does not mean its invalid now, though. It just means that we shouldn't get so caught up in arguing about details and quoting lines.

Why not? Also what details are you referring to? I don't understand...

Details as in what a single line means, or even what a single word means. Anything that qualifies as an idiom, or the meaning depends on how its said. Abortion seems to be one of the issues caught up by looking at the details. But it is only an issue (to me) in the stance we are looking at in this thread. To decide which is more important, the happiness and goals of a conscious and violated woman, or the life of an unborn child. To me, the only time an abortion should occur at all is in the week or two after conception anyways. But who am I to decide? This last is a question that I wish everyone would ask, even if they are christian and it seems contrary by the bible. It seems more important to me to understand and accept the decision of a person concerning their own life.

It should be told as a whole story--a grand story of our ancestry that gives ultimate examples on how we should live together.

Ok I agree, but then I would need to quote lines from it...

Not neccessarily. Do you need to quote lines to say that Jesus loves you, or that we should all live peacefully, or that God is all-powerful?

Having to quote lines to prove your point only means that you can't find support in the world around you for your cause. This, to me, is a weakness in logic and belief. If you can't relate the bible to the world around you, then it is useless. Rather than quote a line, why don't you relate an experience in which biblical advice has helped you personally?

It should not be taught as a rule book that is absolute. When it is used as such, the absolute rules that are imprinted on the children do not come from god himself, they come from the preacher teaching it.

Why? It is a rule book.. There are do's and dont's and consequences for living in sin... Have you ever read the 10 commandments before given by God?

Yes, I have, and they are good rules to live by. But they are not rules that everyone will adhere to, not even all christians. It just against our nature. And I know that it is sinful to give into you nature, but it is impossible. Those that say otherwise are decieving themselves of their true selves. Instead of shunning that nature, we should understand it so that we can work around it, try to wean off it so that maybe somewhere down the line, we will have taught ourselves to live without sin. Because obviously absolute non-tolerance isn't working.

God's truth is the world that we live in. I look to that world to find my answers. But it is difficult because we live percieve only effects on our body, not the actual world we live in.

I don't think looking at the world will give you all your answers... Since we are spiritual, we need to be fed spiritually as well.. And sometimes only God can fulfill that need...

But looking at the bible will not give you all the answers either. You need both, relating to each other. Personally, I feel a lot closer to God while walking through the woods, or along the beach than I do when reading the bible.

[YLTYLT]

Having to quote lines to prove your point only means that you can't find support in the world around you for your cause. This, to me, is a weakness in logic and belief. If you can't relate the bible to the world around you, then it is useless. Rather than quote a line, why don't you relate an experience in which biblical advice has helped you personally?

I see your point. And I agree if our focus is only on the world and how we treat and relate to our fellow man, then you have very valid points. But I believe the Bible is more than about our success and happiness in this life. I think it is most importantly about our eternal destiny.

There are many verses that are very clear about what happens to us after we die. About judgement, sin and the consequenses - both temporal and eternal. We can relate to, and experience the temporal ones. And the temporal results and consequenses apply to all men regardless of their eternal destiny.

But the eternal consequenses require faith. And this faith is to take the Word of God over our own. We cannot truly take our experiences of life and and apply them eternally unless we have Faith.

Consider all philosiphies and religions in the world. All but one says to get to Heaven one must do good. Christianity teaches that we cannot be good enough, no matter how hard we try. And that only God is good.
Understanding these 2 points can you see how Christians would interpret these verses (Matthew 7:13-14,John 6:28-29) that trusting in Jesus is the only way.

Matthew 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 6:28-29
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Do you believe a person can know for sure if they a going to heaven?Do you believe you will?
Do you believe we are all sinners and deserve hell?

Have you ever heard a clear presentation of the Gospel that made sense to you?

If not, ....
I would not be so presumptuous to share if you are not open to listening, but if you are please let me know. You can PM me and I will respond next time I am on line.

Thank you,
Jeff

[Gman]

It is interesting. This kind of thing makes me want to go into theological research myself. I am very interested (as well as blessed with skill) in languages. Having tentatively picked up a couple languages already, I know that words just cannot be translated from language to language and mean exactly the same as they were written. The idioms and metaphorical relationships with the actual world can only be explained in that particular culture as they were written. But I also know that there are dedicated people out there who look for those unspoken meanings.

I too believe that things can mistranslated in time... In fact there are some things that the Bible doesn't specifically address either. However, what I believe is that the framework of the Bible still stands.. Christ is an example of that framework and how we should treat one another.. And his framework permeates and is understandable through all cultures and languages..

Who do you look up to?

Details as in what a single line means, or even what a single word means. Anything that qualifies as an idiom, or the meaning depends on how its said.

Oh I wouldn't go that far... Some things are black and white. We all agree that murder or beating up on someone because they are of a different race is wrong...

Abortion seems to be one of the issues caught up by looking at the details. But it is only an issue (to me) in the stance we are looking at in this thread. To decide which is more important, the happiness and goals of a conscious and violated woman, or the life of an unborn child. To me, the only time an abortion should occur at all is in the week or two after conception anyways. But who am I to decide? This last is a question that I wish everyone would ask, even if they are christian and it seems contrary by the bible. It seems more important to me to understand and accept the decision of a person concerning their own life.

And what about the happiness and goals of the unborn child?

Not neccessarily. Do you need to quote lines to say that Jesus loves you, or that we should all live peacefully, or that God is all-powerful?

Yes as a matter of fact I do... And how do I know that? Because that is what the Bible is saying... How do you think man came to know God in the first place?

Having to quote lines to prove your point only means that you can't find support in the world around you for your cause. This, to me, is a weakness in logic and belief.

No... We study the Bible to find the reasons behind the lines.. Not just blindly follow them. If you really want to own the lines you have to experience what they mean in your life..

If you can't relate the bible to the world around you, then it is useless. Rather than quote a line, why don't you relate an experience in which biblical advice has helped you personally?

True... As for me I have many many experiences in which Biblical advice has helped me... As an example, when I was an evolutionist I never really did care much for the homeless. Now I see that this was a mistake and they are human beings as well.. They too are created in the image of God just like everyone else.. You see all people are created in the image of God. They are not accidents and have meaningful lives just like everyone else...

Yes, I have, and they are good rules to live by. But they are not rules that everyone will adhere to, not even all christians. It just against our nature.

You don't think that loving your neighbor as yourself are not good rules to live by? It is against our nature to love our neighbor as ourself, so therefore the rule shouldn't apply to everyone? I really don't understand this logic...

And I know that it is sinful to give into you nature, but it is impossible. Those that say otherwise are decieving themselves of their true selves. Instead of shunning that nature, we should understand it so that we can work around it, try to wean off it so that maybe somewhere down the line, we will have taught ourselves to live without sin. Because obviously absolute non-tolerance isn't working.

Yes, we are all still capable of doing evil things.. I think you are forgetting an important factor... It's not that we are looking to obtain a good self image of ourselves as the world may see it.. What we are seeking to obtain in an accurate self image of ourselves... This is a more healthy position..

But looking at the bible will not give you all the answers either. You need both, relating to each other. Personally, I feel a lot closer to God while walking through the woods, or along the beach than I do when reading the bible.

I think you can find God in nature as well... In fact if you look at the seasons it spells out God's plans as well... Like death and resurrection are equal to winter and spring. But you need to understand the Bible first to find the reasons behind it sometimes... There is more to life than just the five senses..