Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

[YLTYLT]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[packrat]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I've been mindful of that verse quite often recently. I only hope that it is in God's good will to show the truth to someone who searches for it.

[YLTYLT]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I've been mindful of that verse quite often recently. I only hope that it is in God's good will to show the truth to someone who searches for it.

I can tell you that is exactly how it happened for me. I became a Christian in my early thirties. I looked at a lot of metaphysical stuff for a while, but eventually determined for my self that I did not care what the truth was, only that it would reveal itself to me. That was my prayer. And It sounds to me like it is yours as well.

Packrat, has anyone shared the Gospel with you in a way that you clearly understood it and know why you need it?
I think I read in one of your posts that you had professed to be a Christian, but that you still were not sure. Is this correct? I was just wondering. You have probably heard these before but these were the verses that got me started to really understand. I hope they can be benificial for you.


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If it is the Gospel that saves, its essential that we know what it is if before we can believe it. Then we need to beleive it if we want to go to heaven. Right?
The word Gospel means "Good news". And the Gospel is define in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as:

1. death : for our sins
2. burial : proving his death
3. Resurrection of Christ: Proving He was who He said He was: God

But the good news has no value and meaning if we do not know the reason for the good news. Hence the bad news: And the bad new is that:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

and

Romans 6:23 (part 1)
For the wages of sin is death;

(but the good news (Gospel) is)

Romans 6:23 (part 2)
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Romans 10:12-13
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

When you have called upon Christ and ask Him to save you, you have received His gift

Faith is taking the word of of God over your own.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Really think on the relationship between all these verses. There are many others. And keep searching the scriptures for more truth.....

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Luke 11:9-11
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

[packrat]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I've been mindful of that verse quite often recently. I only hope that it is in God's good will to show the truth to someone who searches for it.

I can tell you that is exactly how it happened for me. I became a Christian in my early thirties. I looked at a lot of metaphysical stuff for a while, but eventually determined for my self that I did not care what the truth was, only that it would reveal itself to me. That was my prayer. And It sounds to me like it is yours as well.

Packrat, has anyone shared the Gospel with you in a way that you clearly understood it and know why you need it?
I think I read in one of your posts that you had professed to be a Christian, but that you still were not sure. Is this correct? I was just wondering. You have probably heard these before but these were the verses that got me started to really understand. I hope they can be benificial for you.


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If it is the Gospel that saves, its essential that we know what it is if before we can believe it. Then we need to beleive it if we want to go to heaven. Right?
The word Gospel means "Good news". And the Gospel is define in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as:

1. death : for our sins
2. burial : proving his death
3. Resurrection of Christ: Proving He was who He said He was: God

But the good news has no value and meaning if we do not know the reason for the good news. Hence the bad news: And the bad new is that:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

and

Romans 6:23 (part 1)
For the wages of sin is death;

(but the good news (Gospel) is)

Romans 6:23 (part 2)
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Romans 10:12-13
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

When you have called upon Christ and ask Him to save you, you have received His gift

Faith is taking the word of of God over your own.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Really think on the relationship between all these verses. There are many others. And keep searching the scriptures for more truth.....

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Luke 11:9-11
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

I admit that the gospel has been confusing to me. How I believe you are saved:

You put your trust in God to save you through his Son by his plan of salvation. That means you 1. Believe that God exists, 2. Believe that Jesus exists, 3. Believe that Jesus is who he said he was, 4. Believe Jesus' message, 5. Trust in God to save you by the life, death, and resurrection of his Son.

If I am wrong in ANY point WHATSOEVER, please let me know. I do not believe that baptism saves you or is explicitly required for salvation. I do not believe that any good deed explicitly is required for salvation - which is partly why this blasphemy thing is so confusing.

If anything should be added to, taken from, or modified from what I have said that is required to be saved, please clue me in. You obviously have to believe that God exists before you can trust him. You obviously have to believe that Jesus exists before you can believe him. You obviously have to believe that Jesus is who he said he was or you are calling him a liar and complications arise that discredit the Father's message that he has given through his Son. You also have to believe Jesus' message of salvation from sins or else you won't believe that it is necessary to be saved from sin or you will think that sacrificing animals or something of that sort will cause the blood of said animals to cover your sins. And the final part, in my opinion, requires that you trust God to save you. Without trust in God - without faith in God - you are unsaved.

In my opinion it has always been about trust - trust in God in both the Old and New Testaments. Abraham was counted righteous by his faith (I think this 'faith' is actually trust) in God. So who are you trusting? Are you trusting in God - the Trinity? Or are you trusting in the Son, the Father, OR the Holy Spirit to save you? It seems to me that without either one of the members of the Trinity God, the Gospel as it is would not be. So it seems to me that it is still about trust in God - every member of God and not just in one part of him.

If the 'faith' that is mentioned here is something other than trust, please clue me in. And if you could unravel my mess point-by-point in a logical and orderly manner so that I could understand it, I would be quit appreciative. And also was it Jesus' life that saved us? Or was it his death or was it his resurrection? I personally believe that it was all three. For example, I believe that without his life he would obviously not exist and therefore not be able to save us. Without first living, he would not be able to save us. So we must believe that he lived. Without his death, we would not have his blood to cover our sins (or is it wash away our sins? - I never truly understood this part). Are we still sinful even though we are saved? Can we still sin though we are saved? And finally if Christ was not raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, then obviously none of us would be since the Holy Spirit had no power to raise him from the dead and would not have power to raise us from the dead.

Also, is it necessary that we know how we are saved and not just what God requires of us in order to be saved? You made a very good point. We should believe, but believe in what? I have been struggling with this off and on for years in my life. I have not EVER been completely sure of what is required. So many have so many different opinions. I believe that I have managed to rule out baptism as necessary for salvation by having a several-day-long talk with another person on this matter. I believe that I have at least gotten that straightened out.

Is it necessary for salvation, though, to believe that we are saved by the power of the Holy Spirit or by the power of the Father or by the power of the Son?

[packrat]

I would also like to pose the question, "Is it necessary for salvation that the Believer be filled with the Holy Spirit?" And if that is necessary to be saved, is it necessary to understand that you are filled with the Holy Spirit in order to trust in God that you can die at any moment but still be raised to life by the Holy Spirit?

I would say that you are only saved by being filled with the Holy Spirit, and you are filled with the Holy Spirit by having faith in God's claim to save you. I also believe that one can lose the Holy Spirit - as did Saul, and thus one can lose faith and lose salvation. I believe this can be seen from Christ's parable of sewing the seed. Some seed takes root; other seed is eaten or falls among thorns, etc. I believe that faith can take root and that its roots can be torn out.

I personally believe that this parable applies very much to my life. I am having my roots torn out. But I am unsure if I have ever been planted on solid ground in the first place.

[packrat]

Resurrection of Christ: Proving He was who He said He was: God

So in order to be saved, you're saying that we have to believe that Jesus the Christ is God? I understand that he is the Son of God, but how is he God? My heart is not packrat - nor is my arm. How can the Son of God - who is only part of the Trinity be the Trinity? Is it that passage in Scripture in which Christ says that he and his Father are one, meaning that God - his Father - and him are the same being or the same in their motives, mind, and teachings?

I once saw someone illustrate the Trinity God in the sense of a fractal; every part of the fractal is the same as the whole and embodies every part of the whole. It is an infinitely intricate shape. But if Christ is God, then wouldn't a blasphemy against Christ be a blasphemy against God and therefore every part of the Trinity - even the Holy Spirit?

[YLTYLT]

packrat,
The Trinity can be a very confusing study. The idea of it does not fit into our minds. How can 3 persons be one God? Right?

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So if the Word was god but the Word was also with God and the Wrod also became flesh. then we have conundrum dont we? The only solution is that God is a Trinity. Although, these verse only speak of the Father and the Son.

So....

Isaiah 48:15-16
I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Consider who is speaking here in Isaiah 48.

And there are many other verse that corroborate this idea....

But the idea of the Trinity is that the Trinity is
God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit.

All three are God
Each one is Omnipotent
Each one is Omnipresent
Each one is Omniscient
Each one is eternal immutable(never changing)

But there is only one God
There are in perfect communication with each other always.
Each one is infinite in all ways.

And if you can wrap you mind around the idea of infinty, think of this:

Infinity plus Infinity plus Infinity still only equals Infinity. (I have heard that Einstien said numbers are perfect so there must be a God )

Another way to think about The Trinity is that if the God the Father has always existed and the God is Love, then who was the object of his Love? He must have had someone to express Love to from the beginning. God the Son is a relection of God the Father and the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of the energy generated by the PERFECT Love between the Father looking toward the Son and the Son's Love back toward the father. This Love has always existed and therefore the Holy Spirit has always existed.
That is the simplest explanation of the Trinity that I can come up with now.
Hope that helps.

[YLTYLT]

packrat,

Sorry, I had to get the Trinity part out of the way first.

But on to you other questions:

So it seems to me that it is still about trust in God - every member of God and not just in one part of him.

Technically you are correct, but because all members of the Trinity are always in agreement, by Trusting the Son you are trusting the Father and the Holy Spirit. But we should worship God in "Spirit and in truth". The truth being that they are a Trinity.

Without first living, he would not be able to save us. So we must believe that he lived.

Technically correct. You cannot believe that someone died if you don't believe they lived. But it is really His death on the cross that paid for our sins.

Without his death, we would not have his blood to cover our sins (or is it wash away our sins? - I never truly understood this part).

I have heard it both ways as well but I think it is more accurate to say "Covering of our sins."
If you think of Genisis and how after Adam and Eve had sinned, they took fig leaves to cover themselves. But God removed the Fig leaves and gave them animal skins - being the first animal sacrifice for the "covering" of sin.

Are we still sinful even though we are saved?

Yes.
Paul speaks of this about himself.

Can we still sin though we are saved?

Yes. Paul speaks of this as well.
Once we are saved we have 2 natures. The old sinful nature and the new nature. These 2 natures are at constant battle trying to be in control. The one that wins is the one you feed. Stay the Word and the Holy Spirit that always dwells within you will then empower you with the Grace to have God work through you. - just as we are saved by Grace, we then serve by Grace. We receive the Grace by Faith. and faith by hearing the Word. Once you have heard the Gospel and taken those words over your own, then, by the Grace of God, He will provide more Grace for you to receive to have Him work though you.

And finally if Christ was not raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, then obviously none of us would be since the Holy Spirit had no power to raise him from the dead and would not have power to raise us from the dead.

Absolutely correct........

It sounds like you have it all down pretty well......
You may just need to take some little things by faith and by taking the scripture that you know and act on it, as you see results your faith will grow because then God will give you bigger things to be faithful with. (Remeber We can only take the words of God, that we know, over our own. So studying help us to grow. See-1 Peter 2:2)

But as your Christian walk matures, God sometimes steps back and lets us continue on in Faith without giving us the warm fuzzies that we had been used to. Don't worry that just means you are Growing. Stay firm on the same course and finish you race.

I will have to get to you other question later. Maybe some else has answers too......

[packrat]

packrat,
The Trinity can be a very confusing study. The idea of it does not fit into our minds. How can 3 persons be one God? Right?

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So if the Word was god but the Word was also with God and the Wrod also became flesh. then we have conundrum dont we? The only solution is that God is a Trinity. Although, these verse only speak of the Father and the Son.

So....

Isaiah 48:15-16
I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Consider who is speaking here in Isaiah 48.

And there are many other verse that corroborate this idea....

But the idea of the Trinity is that the Trinity is
God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit.

All three are God
Each one is Omnipotent
Each one is Omnipresent
Each one is Omniscient
Each one is eternal immutable(never changing)

But there is only one God
There are in perfect communication with each other always.
Each one is infinite in all ways.

And if you can wrap you mind around the idea of infinty, think of this:

Infinity plus Infinity plus Infinity still only equals Infinity. (I have heard that Einstien said numbers are perfect so there must be a God )

Another way to think about The Trinity is that if the God the Father has always existed and the God is Love, then who was the object of his Love? He must have had someone to express Love to from the beginning. God the Son is a relection of God the Father and the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of the energy generated by the PERFECT Love between the Father looking toward the Son and the Son's Love back toward the father. This Love has always existed and therefore the Holy Spirit has always existed.
That is the simplest explanation of the Trinity that I can come up with now.
Hope that helps.

I really appreciate the input, but I've got a question. If someone blasphemes God, then who are they blaspheming? Are they blaspheming the Holy Spirit who is God or are they blaspheming the Son or are they blaspheming the Father? Christ made a distinction among the members of the Trinity, but does that distinction still hold when one blasphemes God?

[packrat]

So far it seems to me that the Father is most often referred to as God. The Holy Spirit is referred to as God's Spirit. And Christ is referred to as the Son of the Father or the Son of God.

So Christ is flesh and has the Spirit of God in him. And if you blaspheme the Spirit of God, then you will never be forgiven it seems. And yet Christ was with God the Father in the beginning and Christ was God the Father in the beginning. Considering that a son is descended from his father and is part of the father before the son is fully realized, then that may be that that is how the Son was the Father in the beginning.

The Son was the Father and still is because he has the Spirit of the Father within him even though he was given form separate to that of the Father. So those who blaspheme the Son in the flesh can be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Spirit of the Father cannot be forgiven. Just thinking out loud. I still don't understand it. All I know is that Christ makes a distinction among the members of the Trinity. Why would he do that if they are as closely related as being the same singular Being. Well, I really have to go. I'll start again tomorrow - assuming I don't die today. Thanks for the input.

[YLTYLT]

There is a difference in the functions of the each person of the Trinity.

The Word (Jesus, the Messiah, Christ) is there to show us what is right and what is wrong. He identifies to us that we are a sinner and tells us how to resolve that sinnfull nature. so in a sense you can say the Word Knocks us down a notch.

The Holy Spirit lifts us up and encurages us: He Tells us "you can do it, you know its the right thing to do. Go ahead..."

So the Word knocks us down and the HS lifts us up.

The Father is the Head (or leader) of Christ just as Christ is the Head of the church.

But back to the idea of Blaspheming....
I am not absolutely sure about this as well. From what I can tell scripture is not specifically clear on this. But I believe that several of the above response were pretty accurate.

What I Believe is that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, one must have become aware of Great Light and Great Truth and not just denied it but also actually called it evil. And some theologians even say that only people that lived during the time of Jesus that had Great scriptural knowledge could blaspheme. I am not sure you will be able to find a definite answer to this question. Most of it is opinion. Although, I am pretty confident that one cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit if he is ignorant of the Truth.

[FFC]

Speaking against the Son can be forgiven but speaking against the Holy Spirit cannot...simply because it is through the Spirit that forgiveness comes. You can't have light if you cut the electrical lines.

[packrat]

Hello!

So no one knows the answer to my question? If you blaspheme God (in general), then who or what part of God are you blaspheming?

I'm kinda of the opinion that if you blaspheme God, then you blaspheme every part of God - even the Holy Spirit.

And concerning the different parts of the Trinity, I believe that through the Son all things were made and are maintained. The Holy Spirit is the giver of gifts (one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is salvation). And the Father? The Father is the head or the deliberative part of God. The Father has authority over the body of God. I think that the Son once said that he does not speak a word unless it comes from the Father. Just my thoughts.

At any rate, does anyone have any further input on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? It still seems to me that Christ is saying that if you speak evil to the Holy Spirit, then you are going to hell. Speaking evil could be anything from cussing at the Holy Spirit to attributing evil to it I would think. Afterall, wouldn't an insult against God not be termed 'blasphemy' precisely but still be termed 'speaking evil to'?

[bizzt]

First of all what is Blaspheming God??

I think Barnes says it nicely

Mat 12:31-32 -
In this place, and in Mar_3:28-30, Jesus states the awful nature of the sin of which they had been guilty. That sin was the sin against the Holy Spirit. It consisted in charging him with being in league with the devil, or accusing him of working his miracles, not by the “spirit” or “power” of God, but by the aid of the prince of the devils. It was therefore a direct insult, abuse, or evil speaking against the Holy Spirit - the spirit by which Jesus worked his miracles. That this was what he intended by this sin, at that time, is clear from Mar_3:30, “because they said he had an unclean spirit.” All other sins - all speaking against the Saviour himself - might be remitted. But this sin was clearly against the Holy One; it was alleging that the highest displays of God's mercy and power were the work of the devil; and it argued, therefore, the deepest depravity of mind. The sin of which he speaks is therefore clearly stated. It was accusing him of working miracles by the aid of the devil, thus dishonoring the Holy Spirit.
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven - That is, only on condition that people repent and believe. If they continue in this sin they cannot be forgiven, Mar_16:16; Rom_2:6-9.
Blasphemy - Injurious or evil speaking of God. See the notes at Mat_9:3.
A word against the Son of man - The Jews were offended at the humble life and appearance of the Saviour. They reproached him as being a Nazarene - sprung from Nazareth, a place from which no good was expected to proceed; with being a Galilean, from Galilee, a place from which no prophet came, Joh_7:52. Jesus says that reproaches of this kind could be pardoned. Reflections on his poverty, on his humble birth, and on the lowliness of his human nature might be forgiven; but for those which affected his divine nature, accusing him of being in league with the devil, denying his divinity, and attributing the power which manifestly implied divinity to the prince of fallen spirits, there could be no pardon. This sin was a very different thing from what is now often supposed to be the sin against the Holy Spirit. It was a wanton and blasphemous attack on the divine power and nature of Christ. Such a sin God would not forgive.
Speaketh against the Holy Ghost - The word “ghost” means “spirit,” and probably refers here to the “divine nature” of Christ - the power by which he performed his miracles. There is no evidence that it refers to the third person of the Trinity; and the meaning of the whole passage may be: “He that speaks against me as a man of Nazareth - that speaks contemptuously of my humble birth, etc., may be pardoned; but he that reproaches my divine nature, charging me with being in league with Satan, and blaspheming the power of God manifestly displayed “by me,” can never obtain forgiveness.”
Neither in this world, nor in that which is to come - That is, as Mark expresses it, “hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” This fixes the meaning of the phrase. It means, then, not the future age or dispensation, known among the Jews as the world to come, but it means that the guilt will be unpardoned forever; that such is the purpose of God that he will not forgive a sin so direct, presumptuous, and awful. It cannot be inferred from this that any sins will be forgiven in hell. The Saviour meant simply to say that there were “no possible circumstances” in which the offender could obtain forgiveness. He certainly did “not” say that any sin unpardoned here would be pardoned hereafter.

[FFC]

So no one knows the answer to my question? If you blaspheme God (in general), then who or what part of God are you blaspheming

I would venture to say that if you were blaspheming God (in general) then you are blaspheming The Father. "God" was not only who The Father was but many times also used as His title.