Dinner with Jehovah

[Mastermind]

Matthew 4:6-7

6: and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, `He will give his angels charge of you,' and `On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
7: Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, `You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"Matthew 4:6-7

6: and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, `He will give his angels charge of you,' and `On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
7: Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, `You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

I and the Father are one. John 10:30

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. John 13:13

Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9

from http://www.ex-atheist.com

The ambiguity that you speak of was the very thing that caused me to see Christ's divinity. You CAN read the Bible and come up with different answers as to who or what Jesus is.

Jesus asks each of us, "Who do YOU say I am?" He asks us to judge him. We will either judge him as god or man. If we judge him as a man, then we are in effect saying that we, as men, are on his level. We have the potential to live our lives to his sinless standard. If we judge him as God, however, we are saying that He is so far above us that we could never attain His perfection, even though we strive for it.

We will be judged according to how we judge Christ. It is similar to being asked to grade a grammatically perfect essay and then having our own error filled essay graded by the same standard; if we find error in a perfect essay, how much more error would be found in our own? If we find fault with Christ, how much fault will be found in us? But if we declare Jesus to be God, then we ask to be graded on a curve! It's our only hope to pass.

Also, the Jews in Jesus' time did feel that he was stating that he was God. To call oneself the 'Son of God' was to say that one was God. Men beget men but God begets God. Hence, the charges of Blasphemy.

[Chris]

Here are a few more of my favorites. How about John 17:3?

3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

Compare Jesus above words with his words here at John 13:16

16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.

[Mastermind]

Here are a few more of my favorites. How about John 17:3?

3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

Compare Jesus above words with his words here at John 13:16

16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.

Except it doesn't say that the master is greater than the servant. They could be equal and fit into that perfectly. If God is infinity, you can say God>God, God=God and God<God at the same time. Now do me a favor and explain the verses I posted that show how Jesus called Himself God.

[Chris]

Gladly!

I and the Father are one. John 10:30

Unity of purpose, like Jesus prays for is disciples to have here, in John 17:20-21:
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. John 13:13

Again, it is proper to call Jesus Lord, for he is such, but he is not LORD, for as he said at John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I am."

Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9

Jesus is the image of God. An image is not the "real thing". You can look into a mirror and see your "image", but it's not you, its an image. You can have a beloved physical son that looks just like you and has your characterisitcs, but he is not you. He remains your son, and you remain the father


Many people saw Jesus -how then if he is God Almighty, did John write

18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

Jesus was sent by God, and did his Father's will perfectly. Therefore to have seen Jesus was "like" seeing God. But the facts remain that Jesus was created, was sent by God, prayed to God, had to learn obedience to God, and struggled to do God's will, even when he didn't want to. Just before his death, he cried out, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" For any honest person to really read the scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus said he was God is mind boggling.

[Chris]

Except it doesn't say that the master is greater than the servant. They could be equal and fit into that perfectly. If God is infinity, you can say God>God, God=God and God<God at the same time

Except Jesus himself said the "Father is greater than I am"

[Kurieuo]

Let's look at Jesus own words at John 14:28

28You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.

How about this?

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The Father has knowledge that he hasn't shared with Christ. They are not the same being.

"5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:5-8)

Here's another scripture, from Colossians
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

If "All things created" were created by Christ, then Christ must have created Himself if He were created. But this is absurd. So the conclusion one must draw is that Christ isn't amongst the created.

But he is not God, and never claimed to be. He claimed to be exactly what he is, the firstborn of creation, and God's "master workman" for all future creation.

Firstborn here has a very different meaning from "first created" which you're trying to advocate.

Check out Proverbs 8
...

"Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
...
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." (Proverbs 8:1-3;22 KJV)

Surely this passage is emphasising that "wisdom" (referred to as a woman mind you), was always with God. Unless one wishes to argue there was a time when an immutable God did not have wisdom, then one should be agreeable to the KJV translation of "possessed."

Kurieuo.

[Chris]

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:5-8)

Yes, this text says Christ had the nature of God, but did not try to be equal with God himself, and it says we should follow his example.Contrast that with the attitude of Satan, who also had a very high heavenly position, but DID "consider equality with God something to be grasped"

If "All things created" were created by Christ, then Christ must have created Himself if He were created. But this is absurd. So the conclusion one must draw is that Christ isn't amongst the created.

Are we reading the same scripture? It plainly says that christ is the "firstborn" of creation. Even if you want to quibble over whether Jesus was created, to be "firstborn" means you have to be born, which means that Someone caused your existence, and there was a time when you did not exist


Now the Scripture in Proverbs 8, where wisdom is personified is generally recognized as speaking of Christ. If you are such a misogynist that the use of feminine pronouns bothers you, what about where Jesus says that "many times he wanted to gather the Jews together, as a mother hen gathers her chicks" or how about when God describes the creation of the earth in terms of a woman giving birth?

[Felgar]

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

John 1:1-14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Just read it my friend... "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning."

Clearly, beyond ANY reasonable doubt, Jesus is the Word that became flesh, and Jesus was with God and Jesus WAS God.

Revelation 1:12-17
12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,”dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp doubleedged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

The First and the Last, the Son of Man, says he was dead. Was the Father ever dead? Nope. Is anyone but God "the first and the last"? Nope.

But just in case you wanted the passage:
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

So how can two beings (The Living One who was dead, and the LORD Almighty) BOTH claim to be the beginning and the end? Doesn't it stand to reason that there's only ONE beginning and end? If the Lord came first, how can the Living One be the beginning? In my mind, the ONLY reasonable explanation is that Jesus and God are one and the same - just like Jesus says quoted earlier.

And finally, aside from all that, I cannot understand how anyone but God himself has the authority to redeem our sins. It's the only way that salvation even makes sense...

All your own passages do is reinforce the notion that God is 3 persons.

[Mastermind]

Unity of purpose, like Jesus prays for is disciples to have here, in John 17:20-21:
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Load of crap. First, you are forgetting that Jesus was both flesh and spirit. Yes, God is in HIS BODY, because He is God incarnate. Never does it say the apostles are one with them, the apostoles are one with each other.

Again, it is proper to call Jesus Lord, for he is such, but he is not LORD, for as he said at John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I am."

Didn't I explain the concept of infinity to you already?

infinity has no mathematical properties. Jesus saying the father is greater seems pretty accurate, as jesus was in flesh, while the father was not. You could say God temporarily restricted his power.

Jesus is the image of God. An image is not the "real thing". You can look into a mirror and see your "image", but it's not you, its an image. You can have a beloved physical son that looks just like you and has your characterisitcs, but he is not you. He remains your son, and you remain the father

Seeing an image of the Father is not the same as seeing the Father. It is simply seeing His image. Jesus said that those who saw Him saw THE FATHER. Not the Father's image, the father.

Many people saw Jesus -how then if he is God Almighty, did John write

18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

Jesus was sent by God, and did his Father's will perfectly. Therefore to have seen Jesus was "like" seeing God. But the facts remain that Jesus was created, was sent by God, prayed to God, had to learn obedience to God, and struggled to do God's will, even when he didn't want to. Just before his death, he cried out, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" For any honest person to really read the scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus said he was God is mind boggling.

Educate yourself:
http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm

Perhaps you wish to explain to us what Masonic connections the JWs have? The Jehovah's witnesses are the spawn of a perversion of the templars, and not far off from being connected with suspected Satan worshippers.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of statements by the apostles that Jesus was God. I'll take their word over brainwashed Mason spawns any day.

[Prodigal Son]

i got really confused about this whole thing after talking with my jw friend. what finally convinced me that Jesus and God are one and the same was: John 1:1-14 and my favorite, John 14:8-9...

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time..."

i don't think believing in the Trinity is such a major issue, though. i think that what's really important is that we accept Jesus as our savior and live by his teachings. ultimately, whether or not we were able to grasp the concept of the Trinity won't really matter. At that time we will all be "judged after our own hearts."

[Chris]

Perhaps you wish to explain to us what Masonic connections the JWs have? The Jehovah's witnesses are the spawn of a perversion of the templars, and not far off from being connected with suspected Satan worshippers.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of statements by the apostles that Jesus was God. I'll take their word over brainwashed Mason spawns any day.

It's really sad someone calling himself a Christian has so little discernment and understanding. It's quite pathetic that someone calling himself a Christian can't base his beliefs on the Bible, and instead has to turn to ad hominem attacks on someone pointing out what the scriptures clearly say. What, pray tell, do the Masons have to do with this discussion? How does someone showing you scriptures to back up his conclusions clearly become "brainwashed"? "Satan worshippers"? Mason spawns?. You say there are dozens, no hundreds of statements by apostles to the effect that Jesus was God. Well, quote them, if they are so voluminous! Learn to handle the word of truth aright, and you will have nothing to be ashamed of. Right now, you are in danger of letting your "beliefs' get in the way of your seeking the truth.

[Mastermind]

I have already provided you with verses. There are dozens more found on this site under Christian Theology.

Frankly, I got fed up with JWs after one of my friend almost lost his faith when he realised JWs used masonic symbols(like the all seeing eye). What do the Masons have to do with this discussion? EVERYTHING. The JWs are the only christian sect that I know of who say Jesus is not God. Not even mormons dare utter such heresy. There is considerable evidence that the JWs were started by the masons. The fact that your founder has a pyramid with masonic symbols is all the proof one needs.

http://www.cephasministry.com/masonic_c ... tower.html

[Mastermind]

And most of my post was dedicated at providing you with explanations for your ridiculous claims. Only the last paragraph was directed at you personally, because just like I wouldn't ask Ted Bundy to babysit, I wouldn't ask a mason for Bible study.

[Kurieuo]

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:5-8)

Yes, this text says Christ had the nature of God, but did not try to be equal with God himself, and it says we should follow his example.

I'd agree with your first statement that Christ was (though I believe still is) in the very nature God. This suggests Christ at least "was" God, however this passage never declares Christ stopped being God when He took on human likeness, so I believe Christ retained His full divinity as Colossians 2:9 says, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."

Now Christ did not try to be equal with God, I'd agree. The reason being because Christ is already God (Jehovah), therefore it would be pointless for Him to try to be something He is already. Yet, the Phillipians passage suggests that though Christ was God, that such didn't stop Him coming down to Earth to dwell among us in human form.

If "All things created" were created by Christ, then Christ must have created Himself if He were created. But this is absurd. So the conclusion one must draw is that Christ isn't amongst the created.

Are we reading the same scripture? It plainly says that christ is the "firstborn" of creation. Even if you want to quibble over whether Jesus was created, to be "firstborn" means you have to be born, which means that Someone caused your existence, and there was a time when you did not exist

I notice you just bypassed my entire argument in favour of your shaky interpretation of "firstborn," which mind you becomes hard to maintain in light of Romans 8:29. I won't get into details, but if further interested in an exegesis that is based more heavily on Scripture, then I recommend http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fa/Bibl ... seID/28146. For now, I'd like to push my argument further in your direction.

To begin, try to think of all things that exist but have never been created. Being Christian, I believe that God is the only thing that exists that has never been created—God alone is eternal and uncreated. Now what about "all created things"? According to John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, Jesus created all things under this label ("all created things"). Now, either some "thing" was created or wasn't—there is no third option. The law of non-contradiction rules out something being both "created" and "uncreated." Given Christ created all created things, does Jesus belong under this label? I see only one conclusion that can be drawn.

Now the Scripture in Proverbs 8, where wisdom is personified is generally recognized as speaking of Christ. If you are such a misogynist that the use of feminine pronouns bothers you, what about where Jesus says that "many times he wanted to gather the Jews together, as a mother hen gathers her chicks" or how about when God describes the creation of the earth in terms of a woman giving birth?

I guess I'm to take this as a concession that you believe there was a time when you believe God didn't have wisdom.

Kurieuo.

[LittleShepherd]

I guess I'm to take this as a concession that you believe there was a time when you believe God didn't have wisdom.

I believe that God still doesn't possess wisdom. Now let me explain before you go thinking I've lost my faith or something.

See...what is wisdom actually stems from <B>Who God is,</B> therefore God never possessed wisdom. He doesn't possess wisdom. He never will possess wisdom. Why?

God <B>IS</B> wisdom. It isn't something He just has -- it's something that He is!