Does our faith mean "self sacrifice"?

[FFC]

To become, ultimatley, more Christ-like, by His grace, requires daily sacrifice of my wants and desires. Living fo Him and not for me.

Very good! That is the jist of the thing in a nutshell.

[FFC]

Zoe and Ashley both make good points.

I'm not sure what my point is right now except to say that I agree there are jerks in all areas of life. For us Christians it is all the more important that we daily surrender ourselves completely in sacrifice to God.

May I also carefully offer, regarding Pauls words on marriage, that although Paul's writings were certainly inspired by God, his personal opinons on certain subjects may sometimes be just that...a personal, albiet a very wise, opinion. Marriage being a good example. I agree with Zoe, the time and the context is important.

...now back to sacrificing...

[Ashley]

I am not an academic on Marxism, but at times I have to be on business trip to China. A saying is often coming to my ears about Chinese culture, "selfish-less to self-sacrifce" - a merit based on Maoism - the notion is sort of something encouraging a gang of many many people having the same world-view and value forgetting or denying one own desire or woe against exploiting the mob that is considered "evil".

It sounds ethical but it is still not Christian faith. I figure that the spiritual leader in a mob using Maoism is a man instead of Christ. But it is seemingly just one-step away from Christian faith given a church resembles quite a lot a mob embracing Maoism. ("leftist" - if we would so dub it)

Honestly I am not that happy to go to fellowship in my church. To some extent it goes like leftists' and traditionally one has the pressure to follow the mob's unwritten rules (the norm, I think) or be accused of eccentric bringing-up that no one would risk.

I think self-sacrificing can be mis-interpreted a little bit to make one self leftist... because self-sacrificing is sort of concept in Maoism, but not Christian faith.. Jesus's commandments are to ask us to love, just like the Good Samaritan for the robbed, but the Samaritan sacrificed nothing; he afforded the time and money for the robbed. We may calculate the opportunity cost the Samaritan probably had made if he wouldn't have taken care of the robbed. In Gospels, it isn't a cost but a gain, while we accumulate wealth in Heaven. (again not a "self-sacrifcing" notion) the relationship between the Good Samaritan and the robbed was a personal one, as Jesus taught us to pray in secret place, not publicly for pleasing the mob and their acceptance. I think Christian faith is not leftists', but quite rightists'.

So apparently the Good Samaritan should be gaining (in Heaven), not losing.. there shouldn't be any self-sacrificing... but why "self-sacrificing" a term so overwhelming the main-stream culture now a day? I doubt that, without God, what Good Samartian had done is an act of "sacrifice", but with God, this term should not be valid. It is a leftists' term, used by atheists, because they only have an eye for physical things, denying spiritual. Calculating physical things only, the Good Samaritan was always losing, and so in atheists' eyes, he was self-sacrificing (a Mao's ideology!). It's pretty far out, is it?

That's the reason why I put this topic on this thread for open discussion.

A weird bloke to think like this, aren't I?

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[zoegirl]

I think you are confusing self-sacrifice with giving up one's ability to think as as individual. Thoughout your posts you bring up feeling to pressure to follow the mob. PLease help me understand this. Are you thinking that somehow Christ wants us to give up our individuality and simply be mindless drones? Just part of a mob? Is this what you mean by sacrificing yourself?

Let me be clear on what I mean when I am using this term

Christ clearly states that we must deny ourselves and follow HIm. (Mt 16:26)

Our natural dead state is selfish and wants what I want when I want it. Every day we can see this...Jealousy, petty thoughts, whiny thoughts, anger at that person that cut me off...How dare they? Who does he think he is? Why don't I get this or that...I deserve it. Even good actions and deeds are polluted by my pride...Is anybody looking, did anybody notice I just did that good thing? In a nutshell....we live for ourselves. We are spritually dead and view ouselves as number one

Christ died for me, I am justified through Christ;s action and my trusting his death and resurection. I am a new creation; however, my entire life will now be tainted by the old self. So in my sanctification, I am always battling to become more like Christ. I want to show His love, his patience, his kindness, his gentleness. I should do good even when no one is looking...I should be kind and loving to those who aren't being kind and loving. Notice, however, the inherent contradicton...My old self always wants to live for me...me new self wants to please my Lord and savior. I will always be needing to sacrifice my wants and desires for His.

Does this mean that I sacrifice my ability to think? To be me? I think scripture i sclear in this as well. Corinthians has a beautiful passage with an analogy of the human body. To me, this is especially significant, because even though all cells are part of the body, each cell has its own identity. Our devotion is to the Body but we are still individual cells. WE should be devoted to the head (Christ) but each of us has been given talents and abilities that God has intended for us to use....for Him.

I think the Psalms are highly valuabl here because it shows us how honest God want us to be with Him...Many of the Psalms show people frustrated and angry and talking to God about these feelings...they close with reaffirming God's lordship...and I think it's valuable that even when they know God is up there, they can be honest with Him.


To address the church issue. Without bringing up names or such, can you be more specific? In what ways are you feeling pressured? How do you feel like it's a mob?

[Ashley]

I think you are confusing self-sacrifice with giving up one's ability to think as as individual. Thoughout your posts you bring up feeling to pressure to follow the mob. PLease help me understand this. Are you thinking that somehow Christ wants us to give up our individuality and simply be mindless drones? Just part of a mob? Is this what you mean by sacrificing yourself?

......

Corinthians has a beautiful passage with an analogy of the human body. To me, this is especially significant, because even though all cells are part of the body, each cell has its own identity. Our devotion is to the Body but we are still individual cells. WE should be devoted to the head (Christ) but each of us has been given talents and abilities that God has intended for us to use....for Him.

You are very clever, (you understood my expression or probably you've got some insight about the Asians' value). "mindless drones" are probably a fit description about the value in the gatherings. Hard to go into details to tell what I think, I did mean that "mob depriving individual of his individuality" is quite a commonplace. I guess it is the kind of people that I run into on business trip.

The problem is that, unless every individual should be the same, a mob can't gather. I think it is very common experience when not-the-same hardly has dinner together. every individual is never the same; five fingers on our palm are of different length, are they? but, in practical incidence, mankind are weak and few can accept dissident, but judgemental against one another, instead of accepting one another.

Christ clearly states that we must deny ourselves and follow HIm. (Mt 16:26)

Matthew 16:26 [NIV]>
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

I ain't a scholar on interpreting (please consult the evangelist).. but I think the verse tells us not to gain the whole world at the expense of our soul; but our soul and the whole world are not neccessarily mutually exclusive. Again, if we put these two variables as black and white which can never mingle. They being only mutually exclusive, we can only choose either of them, it is again, leftists' thought.

A shining example: Job. He gained wealth and power (almost the whole world), but he was approved by God. He was righteous man. God was always first priority.

So I still trust that, what our Christian faith is not a matter of emancipation or revolution, but a matter of ranking priority: God is the first. (but the second, third, fourth .... we still can't live away from)

The awful thing in some churches, (I don't want to generalise but I attended some other churches in Japan and China, worldly things and souls are, somehow, put into mutually exclusive choices, a ideology that i don't see. It is rather doubtful: are biblical verses saying so simple?)

Our natural dead state is selfish and wants what I want when I want it. Every day we can see this...Jealousy, petty thoughts, whiny thoughts, anger at that person that cut me off...How dare they? Who does he think he is? Why don't I get this or that...I deserve it. Even good actions and deeds are polluted by my pride...Is anybody looking, did anybody notice I just did that good thing? In a nutshell....we live for ourselves. We are spritually dead and view ouselves as number one

Christ died for me, I am justified through Christ;s action and my trusting his death and resurection. I am a new creation; however, my entire life will now be tainted by the old self. So in my sanctification, I am always battling to become more like Christ. I want to show His love, his patience, his kindness, his gentleness. I should do good even when no one is looking...I should be kind and loving to those who aren't being kind and loving. Notice, however, the inherent contradicton...My old self always wants to live for me...me new self wants to please my Lord and savior. I will always be needing to sacrifice my wants and desires for His.

You are right, in particular, when we're talking about good and evil, which in God's sight, are entirely impossible to coexist. We either follow Christ or betray Him. what evil, however, is spiritual thing, not the tangible...

Every now and then, I was asked if I could be Christ-like anylonger if I was left on a remote island like Robbinson's, living alone like Tom Hanks in Cast Away... who is my neighbor? the Good Samaritan parable? go and do likewise? we still have something to do and we worship God to live a holy life, because there is relationship between God and us, even if we are cast away.

"to show His love, his patience, his kindness, his gentleness ... "
"I should do good even when no one is looking...I should be kind and loving to those who aren't being kind and loving.".... but there is no neighbor, pals.

What would I want to say? I want to say that, what you said is exactly what the fellows in my church are lacking - individual relation with God. God, in the eyes of fellows that I come across, seemingly to me is substituted by a thing - the mob. but what the mob approved of us apparently become something additional to the biblical value, that Jesus never taught. but it is so popular in a lot of people's understanding to serve in church, and an individual is apparently emancipated to fit in with the church culture but it doesn't necessarily mean that he loves his neighbor as he loves himself, (Jesus's greatest commandment.

Ironic of it all, what an individual, given the mainstream culture, only needs to do, is: not to misbehave beyond any accussation ever turned against him, is enough to be a good Christian, and he needn't even talk to any stranger about the Good News and even a word of "Hi, how are you?" Is it intriguing?

To say it more vividly, I put my position on the reverse side. If I am part of the mob, I am familiar with every one of a gang serving in church, and a new comer approaches us, and I discuss with my fellows about this new comer (I think they are gossips rather than discussion about the new-comer), to decide who should talk to the new-comer, and what should the "designated counsellor" be talking to the new-comer, so that the new-comer won't have mis-understanding about us ... funny, why should I hesitate to discuss with fellows but I always refuse to talk to the new-comer on my individual basis? why should I think of "us" when a new-comer come? A leftists' thought - a mob.

Why should our mob (just we are numerous) so that the new-comer is "new" and should be taken care of by "us" - I don't see. Probably it is "us" who are evil and proud, but a "us" finds it difficult to accept a new-comer dissident behaviour which "we" accused of eccentricity, and leaving him alone, I don't see. (probably "we" are not leaving him alone on purpose, but on individual basis, part of "us", or any of "us" is not willing to approach or even say hi to a new-comer, simply because of his "new" to us.. a complete destruction of the Good Samaritan parable: a leftist's thought.

Why should majority be always more ok, and the minority should always be the weak and should be taken care of, simply because of the number of head-counts? a great fallacy.

Another more vivid situation, an individual who hesitates to order sphaggetti simply because the table dining with him is seated with a mob all of which have already ordered noodles... and awfully, an emancipative pressure when some one quote a passage in bible like "we wear armour and spears to shield us from enemy with Christ as our leader... etc etc" n fact, is enemy equal to dissident? the individual gives up taking the bet, and order rice.... a leftists' culture.

An individual does not lack the ability to think, but what he lacks, is the ability to express his ability. I still think that: leftist's culture is evil. God does not like it. Sadly I don't know where in the bible ever said so.






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[zoegirl]

Sounds like you are struggling with some cultural issues as well. Here, I think, is where iron sharpens iron. We are to always speak the love in truth. If that means not participating in gossip, welcoming newcomers, loving each other and ordering spaghetti, then absolutely, do so.

Just make sure you don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing with the mob. Always examine the scripture and if what the church says agrees with scripture, then following the "mob" is ok.

[Ashley]

I think my reply was too wordy to you, though I was thinking eloquent. Does it bore you? "Don't go disagreeing, simply for sake of disagreeing with the mob" ... a good speech!

I think they are a "mob" because they often have some mob rules on me, e.g. when I talked to girls, there were always intrudings, as though I was doing evil. What wrong if i talked to opposite sex? as onlookers they are, their over-concern about me were like emancipating me to be a monk instead of a normal man.


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[terry]

If I may jump in here with a point. The meaning of the word "passion" is pain or suffering. Hence, the "passion" of Christ, a "Passion Play."

Jesus says that if we are His disciples, we will take up the cross and follow Him. For each one, the cross can be a different thing, but it represents laying down things we think we have "rights" to, thing we feel are ours.

Philippians 2:5-8 "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" [NIV]

In her original post on this thread, Ashley equated "faith" with sacrifice. Faith is accepting the Cross of Christ (HIS sacrifice) as a work accomplished for us. Discipleship is taking up a cross and following Christ. It's a subtle difference, but there is one. People can still live selfish lives after they accept the Lord . . . but to follow Him (to be His disciple) is to take up a cross.

My cross isn't yours, yours isn't mine. God isn't asking everyone to be single or to live lives of poverty or to travel to distant lands. It isn't so much a question of "doing" but BEING in a place of surrender. If we follow Christ, each of us will see Him working in us and through us . . . and eventually hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Hope that makes sense.
Blessings.

[zoegirl]

I think my reply was too wordy to you, though I was thinking eloquent. Does it bore you? "Don't go disagreeing, simply for sake of disagreeing with the mob" ... a good speech!

I think they are a "mob" because they often have some mob rules on me, e.g. when I talked to girls, there were always intrudings, as though I was doing evil. What wrong if i talked to opposite sex? as onlookers they are, their over-concern about me were like emancipating me to be a monk instead of a normal man.


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I guess I would need more information. How old are the girls...Are you overly flirty or zealous? SOme churches are have traditions where guys talk to the dads first. Don't know....as to my reply being short, getting ready to go to work this morning and it was a wuick reply.

[Ashley]

I think my reply was too wordy to you, though I was thinking eloquent. Does it bore you? "Don't go disagreeing, simply for sake of disagreeing with the mob" ... a good speech!

I think they are a "mob" because they often have some mob rules on me, e.g. when I talked to girls, there were always intrudings, as though I was doing evil. What wrong if i talked to opposite sex? as onlookers they are, their over-concern about me were like emancipating me to be a monk instead of a normal man.


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I guess I would need more information. How old are the girls...Are you overly flirty or zealous? SOme churches are have traditions where guys talk to the dads first. Don't know....as to my reply being short, getting ready to go to work this morning and it was a wuick reply.

Those girls are of age 20 - 30 .. What's wrong? I wasn't over-flirty, it was simply causal chat, but what do you mean by zealous? I ain't religious zealot; i think my church is rather traditional and older mates may regulate what they think is inappropriate; it is highly subjective, however, what is appropriate and what's not. That's why I think it drives peope up the wall if church fellows are too judgemental than caring and loving, in particular as onlookers and based on uncertain value.


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[zoegirl]

I don't know

You have given off quite the vibe that you dislike the church. Maybe you are more obvious than you realize and people don't like your judgment of them (something to think on). If you are this vehement , maybe you aremore obvious than you think.

If there is someone you trust at the church (and if there isn't anyone you can think of, then maybe you have anwered the question...or made new ones...why don't you trust anyone? why stay at this church) then ask them why people are reacting this way.

Sometimes women are not interested and try by subtle means to give the signal that they aren't interested. Maybe other people are hearing this message and are annoyed that you aren't getting it.

Just flinging possibilites here, have no answers really. God bless

[Ashley]

The problem is that I find people are over-reacting to trivial words and gesture which they over-interpret that is unfounded and without bases, that i don't know why they interpret this, and in reaction I feel some dislike but why should I bear all of these mis-interpretation ? they were simply too conceited about their interpretation

For example, in case you wore a watch that your father gifted you and it was expensive, were you being sarcastic to people? and there is always this kind of over-interpretation that is sheer insenisble guesswork.

I eye-witnessed another Christian fellow suddenly hurling questions to another one who was saying something which does not suggest anything at all! a plain fact and report of what happened to him. That Christian asking as though this fellow speaker was holding himself out to be a proud one; it isn't true, as I hear his speech.

The same hurled at me some times... for example, if some one introduced himself he always talked of what is good and nice on him, but not suffering; is that proud? is he arrogant?

I can tell: no one can stand ethical judgement. Ethical judgement is always harsh and without leniency. If we study bible, and we know His words, we have more knowlege than before about how wrong the world is going; and we're prone to judge that's not unusual. but i dislike the principle that we are quick to judge that triggers a wave of monitoring each other; the church at times asked why new-comers got away from the church and vanished.. who could stand these ethical judgement.?

Usually new-comer come from a simple feedback to a friendly "hi" the morning yesterday.. see?

if I am vehement, yes i am.. but is vehemancy simply my reaction? or my disposition I am a guy of vehemancy? certainly I don't want to generalise all fellows in my church are not good. Just a few of them can be creepy enough to keep me off them.

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[zoegirl]

DOn't know...feel I can't really comment other than this can happen at churches. Have you tried other churches? Is this an option?

If you continue at this church, then all I can say is to follow Timothy's example...to be a good example of Christ's love to your fellow CHristians even if they look donw on you. Greet those newcomers and smile

[Ashley]

With all due respect, you use the word: "they".

A leftist thought.

Usually if someone complains of his unhappiness, "they" , the majority, are always more righteous. And the minority are always wrong.






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[FFC]

With all due respect, you use the word: "they".

A leftist thought.

Usually if someone complains of his unhappiness, "they" , the majority, are always more righteous. And the minority are always wrong.






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Ashley,
I think the use of "they" by Zoe in this case was just a simple pronoun. Nothing more.

The bottom line is that you and I are not responsible for the behavior of those in your church when it comes to judgement. You are only responsible for your own actions. God will be the judge of all.

This is why we are to sacrifice ourselves to God daily who is responsible for our provision and protection. The consequences are examples such as what you have shared with us from your own experiences.