Intelligent Design/Evolution Debate

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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archaeologist
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Post by archaeologist »

Let;s try this again. YOu are using a situation that has various forces at work. Look, you WANT a certain answer, you have in your mind such a lock on what you think is the right answer that you don't even allow me to answer what I THINK
NO...you are trying to turn the qyestion into what you want it to be and avoid answering the question.
I call it a bad question. You need to include another choice
it is my question, it is not a bad one , you do not have theright to demand/ask for more options. these questions are not about what you want it to be.
Again, you do not read my posts. FOr every gene they have, they have one from mom and one from dad. YOu seemed to think that using your dad;s example of dark hair somehow discredits genetic inheritance.
i am not the one NOT reading a post--i quoted you word for word and you changed your position twice within one sentence. let me put it here again:
See, they have two genes for beak size as well (maybe more...not sure)...but however many genes govern beak size, they have two one from mom, one from dad
you were caught and now you are trying to spin it so you don't look foolish:
YOu seemed to think that using your dad;s example of dark hair somehow discredits genetic inheritance.
i asked a direct question when your error appeared---"which one is it?" and you avoided it again. so i will not gotoo much further till you admit your mistake and explain what you mean.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

i did some reading last night, and it was fun to construct molecules while doing it and i find genetics very interesting thoughicould do without the evolutionary thinking that comes with it.

i did find something worthy of note to post here:
Since we weren't around to observe the beginnings of life, we must use clues found in the structures and functions of today's biological molecules to answer this question.

Every living thing is descended from its ancestors. Evolution results when changes occur along the way
first, they admit that they do not know which gene was first, nor can they construct the initial situation which caused lifed to happen. if they knew, they could probably construct such a thng. but really there is nothing they could construct.

but it is the second sentence that provides the most fuel to disprove evolution: 'everything is descended from its ancestor'.

in the Biblicl sense that would be true but in the evolutionary sense that would be impossible. in the past, they used to say that life came from nothing and the big bang just exploded from nothing. thenover the years, the big bang originated from a tiny little ball or box which somehow miracuously held all that the universe contains inside that little form. yeah right.

next we have to contend with the explosion. an explosion that caused life , gravity, planest, stars and life giving warmth alternating with cold and soon. this would be the first and only time that an explosion caused life and order. usually explosions are very destructive and take lives and in still chaos.

so here they have a problem, itis quite a fanciful tale but that isn't all. out of this chaos is supposed to come some sort of ingredients which magically spawned a one celled animal or whatever they have changed it to which is now deemed 'the common ancestor'

yet that common ancestor had no ancestor to receive its genes from with which topass down to descendents ultimately producing what we see in the world today.

if you push back far enough, evolution basically derived everything from nothing and nothing begats nothing not everything nor complexity. evolutionists try in vain to replace God with some sort of alternative but each time, they fail because the alternative cannot be explained nor can its origin.

thus evolution can not work because it has nothing with which to descend from.

another point which is not on a genetic bent is the fantastic concept that all that that was needed for evolution to succeed was already present in the world. the right air, the right nutrients the right everything. yet how could that be? getting it exactly right the first time so evolution could spawn the first 'ancestor'?

then we must ask what is the origin of evolution? was it present, already existing, waiting to escape when the big bang took place? how did the process come into being? then if it existed prior to the big bang,why is there only one planet with its effects? it would not be discrimnatory, so why couldn't it be present on all the planets doing the same thing?

it seems strange that it would only be limited to earth, why is that? there would be nothing stopping it from expanding its reproductive powers. then why are the scientists looking outside this solar system for proof? one, they are desparate to get collaborating evidence which they can't do and have to resort to conjecture, to sustain their hope.

it couldn't have just magically appeared for then it came from nothing which denies the satement made in that article and did the impossible, something coming from nothing.

soevolution really is not true but a scheme to deceive as many as possible and get them to deny what God has said. NOW don't get on the theostic evolution platform or bandwagon, as the Bible is very clear that creation was used, not evolution.

so, this is why anyone who suscribes to any form of evolution needs to repent from such thinking--it denies God and calls Him a liar plus supports a theory that is false and a lie.
archaeologist
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Post by archaeologist »

thought i would throw the rest of that sectionin here:
At a molecular level, the same idea applies. Each genetic information molecule must be copied and passed on to future generations. These molecules also evolve when they are changed along the way.

The molecules we know today are descended from the first molecules that formed life on Earth. The behavior of today's biological molecules reveals clues about their potential roles in the origin of life.
yet none of this proves the process of evolution nor shows that it is evolution doing the work. it is a good statement for creation though.
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zoegirl
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Post by zoegirl »

I am so tired of this. I did not make a mistake. I may not have been clear enough, but I know of what I speak. I have a Master's in Biology, taught for 13 years. What are your credentials? I may not agree with an evolutionist about his/her conclusions, but I am very respectful in our discussions.

You know, when all of us get together and discuss, we all are very cordial and ask for eleboration if there is something unclear...you immediatley jump to conclusions.

They may have different genes incfluencing the size of the beak, similar to our eyes, we have three distinct genes that code fot eye color on three different loci on chromosomes. However, for each of these genes, they have two copies, one from mom and one from dad. Each of these may contribute to the success of the individuals. Each gene may have different allele that code for different versions of that gene. (alleles=blue eyes, green eyes, hazel....)

Somehow you have gotten this idea that I think that genes are the end all and be all and that there aren't other influences. I have never claimed this. Yes environment influences the action of genes. ABSOLUTELY. THere are multiple factors that we do have to test for. And it is tricky to determine the effects. But there have been very clear and multiple experiments that show gene frequency changes that are the result of environmental changes.

You feel that if I disagree with your satements I am avoiding the question and if have the audacity to challenge the question, I am avoiding the question. Nothing will satisfy you except me saying that you are right. YOu even have the audacity to preface the question with the Hint. essentailly saying that you will not accept any answer but your own. But I don't think you are right, and I think your question was not complete. I attempt to explain why and I am villified. YOu think you are always right. Funny thing that, are you always right? Are you always that arrogant? Have you ever thought that maybe you don't have all the answers?

Now, your example about the seeds growing in the good soil. They are doing what any good seeds are programmed (by their genes, gievn by God) to do when given the right environmental conditions. We grow and maintain our bodies when we give it food.

Your example essentially showed what factors are appropriate for seeds to grow in. Good soil will allow seeds to grow, rocky soil will not.

THIS DOES NOT EXCLUDE THE FACT THAT SOME OF THESE SEEDS MAY GROW TALLER< FASTER< BIGGER LEAVES because of their genes. THis may allow some to grow in drier soils and some to grow in rockier soils.

THis may be futile but go ahead and tell me what you think your answer to your question is. because no matter what I say, you will say I have not answered it.

You like to demand answers but it took me about 10-15 posts to get you to address my points. How many before you address my question about the plants?

BTW, still haven't provided the source about polar bears drowing
archaeologist
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Post by archaeologist »

am so tired of this. I did not make a mistake. I may not have been clear enough, but I know of what I speak. I have a Master's in Biology, taught for 13 years. What are your credentials
i quoted it twice but for the last time:


Quote:
See, they have two genes for beak size as well (maybe more...not sure)...but however many genes govern beak size, they have two one from mom, one from dad.


first you say two genes govern, then you say you are not sure, then you say many genes
then i asked--which one is it?
They may have different genes incfluencing the size of the beak
is this your answer then? i can't tell
You feel that if I disagree with your satements I am avoiding the question and if have the audacity to challenge the question, I am avoiding the question. Nothing will satisfy you except me saying that you are right.
i just want an answer, not your twisting it to mean what you want it to mean. you continually pursue a genetic line of thought when i specifically told you it wasn't a genetic question.

you may have a masters degree but you are not comprehending what is being asked of you.
You like to demand answers but it took me about 10-15 posts to get you to address my points. How many before you address my question about the plants
so? i do not care about your points.
still haven't provided the source about polar bears drowing
haven't had the time.
What are your credentials
i do not post personal information on the internet.
environment influences
this is a catch all phrase, doesn't mean much.
Funny thing that, are you always right? Are you always that arrogant? Have you ever thought that maybe you don't have all the answers
only when i am not wrong--i am not arrogant it just sounds that way as binery does not translate very well.-- you would be suprised at what i know plus with God's help able to figure out.

all i see in you is a girl who is trying to establish herself as someone superior to others as i do not care how long yo have taught or what degreees you have, those aren't germane to the issue or the topic.

as far as i am concerned, you could have a degree in basketweaving and have a genuine knack for understanding science. degrees mean little especially when credible books, websites, articles, and so on are available to anyone now-a-days.

i am tired of talking to you on this subject anyways as you just want to twist it to what you want to talk about and ignore points being made by others.
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zoegirl
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Post by zoegirl »

zoegirl wrote:They may have different genes incfluencing the size of the beak, similar to our eyes, we have three distinct genes that code fot eye color on three different loci on chromosomes. However, for each of these genes, they have two copies, one from mom and one from dad. Each of these may contribute to the success of the individuals. Each gene may have different allele that code for different versions of that gene. (alleles=blue eyes, green eyes, hazel....)
Here it is again....maybe you will actually read it....
archaeologist wrote:so? i do not care about your points
This says a lot...no wonder you have scorn heaped upon you on other sites...you are so rigid in your thinking....

Posting personal information?!?! Whatr a pathetic excuse. A simply matter of your degree, how many biology classes you have taken, how many technical books you have read, how many scientific journals you have read (oh wait, you feel all of them are wrong, so you probably feel like you shouldn't even read them)....So in your ignorance you try to argue points.
archaeologist wrote:all i see in you is a girl who is trying to establish herself as someone superior to others as i do not care how long yo have taught or what degreees you have, those aren't germane to the issue or the topic.
How pathetic and low of you!! I am a professional woman (next time you disagree with Gman, let's hear you call him a boy!) How condescending and patronizing...

And yes, they are germane...

archaeologist wrote: credible books, websites, articles, and so on are available to anyone now-a-days.
And yet, strangly enough, you still don't know even the basics of evolutionary theory, not to mention their theory on the existence of death. And I even doubt your understanding of basic biological concepts....but wait....you don't care...


Yep...tired as well...you obviously don't care about other people enough to even listen to them. YOu have had two other people on this thread agreeing that you don't read my posts...I will be intrigued watching the other threads with you arguing with them. But wait...they're men, maybe you'll care more :roll:



Take care
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Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk »

zoegirl wrote:
zoegirl wrote:Posting personal information?!?! Whatr a pathetic excuse. A simply matter of your degree, how many biology classes you have taken, how many technical books you have read, how many scientific journals you have read (oh wait, you feel all of them are wrong, so you probably feel like you shouldn't even read them)....So in your ignorance you try to argue points.


z/g, I think its wonderful you have good credentials and I respect your opinion. Your knowledge is clear even without stating your scholastic pedigree. But on this one, I agree with Arch. There are lots of good reasons not to state this kind of information because it greatly influences peoples' interactions and judgements. The beauty of the internet is a certain degree of anonominity and hence equality. The unqualified person will be exposed by their words not their parchments.
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zoegirl
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Post by zoegirl »

Forum Monk wrote:
zoegirl wrote:
zoegirl wrote:Posting personal information?!?! Whatr a pathetic excuse. A simply matter of your degree, how many biology classes you have taken, how many technical books you have read, how many scientific journals you have read (oh wait, you feel all of them are wrong, so you probably feel like you shouldn't even read them)....So in your ignorance you try to argue points.


z/g, I think its wonderful you have good credentials and I respect your opinion. Your knowledge is clear even without stating your scholastic pedigree. But on this one, I agree with Arch. There are lots of good reasons not to state this kind of information because it greatly influences peoples' interactions and judgements. The beauty of the internet is a certain degree of anonominity and hence equality. The unqualified person will be exposed by their words not their parchments.
Well, you know, you're right in principle...my frustration was that Arch was not seeing my credibility. He insists that I not know what I am talking about. Very frustrating...wanted to establish credibility.

Thanks for the compliment...
archaeologist
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Post by archaeologist »

my frustration was that Arch was not seeing my credibility
i saw it but then you blew it by not comprehending a simple question and tryin to change it into what you wanted it to say. i gave you a big hint that the question was not a genetic one but you kept trying to make it one so my thought is---what do you not understand by the words: it is not a genetic question?--
He insists that I not know what I am talking about.
no, i insist that you understand what is being written because you refuse to answer when a question takes you outside your comfort zone.
Here it is again....maybe you will actually read it....
i read it and read it--IT is not a genetic question--yet youu contiual to pursue that line of thought.
This says a lot...no wonder you have scorn heaped upon you on other sites...you are so rigid in your thinking....
no, God has shown me a lot, i do not deviate from the truth when i learn it. as for your points, i just didn't care...
How pathetic and low of you!! I am a professional woman (next time you disagree with Gman, let's hear you call him a boy!) How condescending and patronizing
pathetic and low?? not really if you were really professional, you would have just ignored it as i have done many of your insults.
And yes, they are germane...
they are not, intelligence doesn't need degrees, study maybe but not degrees.
And yet, strangly enough, you still don't know even the basics of evolutionary theory, not to mention their theory on the existence of death
and you wonder why i called you a girl...this personal attack is just not called for. in fact try not to discuss with me anymore, these kind of comments i have endure from evolutionists who could not provide an answer when put to the test.

DO NOT tell me what i do and do not understand. you are a prime example of why the Bible tells us that woman are to be silent in the church or why they cannot be ministers.

Do you think i divulge everything i know on these sites? you've got to be nuts to do that. your acceptance of any form of evolution denies your claims that you believe God.
Enigma7457
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Post by Enigma7457 »

and you wonder why i called you a girl...this personal attack is just not called for. in fact try not to discuss with me anymore, these kind of comments i have endure from evolutionists who could not provide an answer when put to the test.

DO NOT tell me what i do and do not understand. you are a prime example of why the Bible tells us that woman are to be silent in the church or why they cannot be ministers.

Do you think i divulge everything i know on these sites? you've got to be nuts to do that. your acceptance of any form of evolution denies your claims that you believe God.
Before i respond, i apologize ahead of time...

WOW. I have to stand up for zoe. Her being a woman has NOTHING to do with it. My pastor is a woman. My wife is better christian than you will ever be. My mother is a better christian than you will ever be. I would be NOTHING today without the women in my life. If you cannot respect women, then you should certainly not be posting here. Without women, Men would be nothing (i am a man, if that wasn't clear enough before). As i try to drill into my thickheaded son, women are to be respected without hesitation. The next time you feel a need to insult someone based on something that GOD assigned (ie her gender) you better take a good long look in the mirror. God made zoe a woman. He made her who she is. If you think that is wrong, talk to God.

PS-You must idivulge enough information to put some sort of facts behind your claims.
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bizzt
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Post by bizzt »

archaeologist wrote:
How pathetic and low of you!! I am a professional woman (next time you disagree with Gman, let's hear you call him a boy!) How condescending and patronizing
pathetic and low?? not really if you were really professional, you would have just ignored it as i have done many of your insults.
I have a Better Suggestion...

How about the insults stop and then we can move on and enjoy a civilized conversation. If that is too much to ask then I will Lock the Thread.

I am sure I do not have to quote the many Biblical Verses to treat your Brothers and Sisters in Christ with Respect ESPECIALLY when you are in a disagreement with each other! It is enough to have other Christians look upon your actions but even worse when you have people who do not know Jesus read what has been said


Thanks for your Understanding

If anybody needs Clarification please read
http://www.godandscience.org/guidelines.php
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zoegirl
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Post by zoegirl »

I am done personally discussing with Arch, Bizzt, but thanks for stepping in, I hope I have shown restraint wherever possible.

If anyone else would like to keep discussing the topic, then I will welcome the discussion, otherwise I refuse to to respond to arch anymore.

Thanks, enigma, I appreciate the comments.
archaeologist
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Post by archaeologist »

My pastor is a woman
please provide scripture which allows this. none that i know of.
My wife is better christian than you will ever be.
you do not evenknow me or know the reason why i said what i said. i remember the fuzzy zoeller incident when tiger woods first started playing professional golf. a reporter asked fuzzy about tiger and his response was' 'the boy is doing good' {or something to that effect}. well zoeller got into a lot of trouble as the word 'boy' was used a lot to insult negros in the past.

what was forgotten and not mentioned at anytime tht i know of, is that older generation men used the term 'boy' not as an insult but as a reference to the age difference. tiger was a boy when he first started out and hadn't proven his manhood yet or paid his dues to gain more respect than that comment.
If you cannot respect women
i don't respect a woman just because they are a woman. AND you do not know me...
Enigma7457
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Post by Enigma7457 »

I apologize. Some of my statements were rather harsh. You are right and i do not know you. That being said, you did more than simply say, "The girl", like zoeller did with tiger. You said:
and you wonder why i called you a girl...this personal attack is just not called for. in fact try not to discuss with me anymore, these kind of comments i have endure from evolutionists who could not provide an answer when put to the test.

DO NOT tell me what i do and do not understand. you are a prime example of why the Bible tells us that woman are to be silent in the church or why they cannot be ministers.
Regardless of what the bible says, you clearly have a lesser view of women than you do of men, probably the reason you attack Zoe so often.

I again apologize for the comments. I don't know you(only what you right here. And from that, you appear a little narrow-minded).
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bizzt
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Post by bizzt »

archaeologist wrote: your acceptance of any form of evolution denies your claims that you believe God.
Now that is a bad Argument. There are many instances of Micro Evolution. Even more how do you know it denies her claim? Are You God? Do you know that Much? Scripture to back that up?
archaeologist
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Post by archaeologist »

Now that is a bad Argument. There are many instances of Micro Evolution
why? evolution is not a biblical thought, and if owants to be consistant with what one believes, how can they allow for micro-evolution when there is no proof that evolution is: a. in existence; b. is responsible for the action.

micr-evolution cannot be shown to be at work as the time frame is still too long to show that it belongs to a process outside of creation. also has it been proven that such actions attributed to micro-evolution are not part of how God set up life to act at creation?

how does anyone know that such actions were not the result of
'the fall'? christians need to remain true to their beliefs and not open the doors to those things which are not of God. evolution is not of God.
Even more how do you know it denies her claim? Are You God? Do you know that Much? Scripture to back that up?
look at the evidence both scientifically and scripturally. evolution is not part of the creation process, it does not exist. yes i know a lot with God's help.
probably the reason you attack Zoe so often.
she engages me and she makes too many assumptions and misrepresents what i say. along with failing to address simple questions without trying to turn them into what she wants them to say so she can answer the way she wants. she has proven to me that her abilities are shady at best.
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