What difference

[FFC]

Thanks Gman. So exactly what are we suppose to do? Just confess? Isn't confessing a result of regret? Don't human beings all feel guilt/sorrow for their wrongdoings?

Can I just interrupt for a sec? I don't think we are supposed to do anything except respond by belief to God's calling...that is if you want to call believing "doing something". Christ already did it all when He died on the cross for your sins. You can choose to believe it and live eternally or not believe and remain dead in your sins. John 3:16 says"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" It's really not rocket science.

The problem is that no one can be saved by their intellectual effort. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says "for by Grace are you saved through faith, not that of yourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast"

It all boils down to faith. Being able to prove things with our 5 senses is just an added bonus.

[johnnyboy08]

...And I have told you that, faith, and religion, is not a matter of win-or-lose.

YES! That's exactly what I was thinking! But that's exactly what people do when it comes to Christianity; they say either Hell or Heaven. If that's not the most serious case of win-or-lose, than I don't know what is.

Ashley, I don't think you're a loser. I am grateful that you actually spend your time helping me understand Christianity than I do now. Thank you, and please, don't think I think negatively of you

[johnnyboy08]

Thanks Gman. So exactly what are we suppose to do? Just confess? Isn't confessing a result of regret? Don't human beings all feel guilt/sorrow for their wrongdoings?

Can I just interrupt for a sec? I don't think we are supposed to do anything except respond by belief to God's calling...that is if you want to call believing "doing something". Christ already did it all when He died on the cross for your sins. You can choose to believe it and live eternally or not believe and remain dead in your sins. John 3:16 says"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" It's really not rocket science.

The problem is that no one can be saved by their intellectual effort. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says "for by Grace are you saved through faith, not that of yourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast"

It all boils down to faith. Being able to prove things with our 5 senses is just an added bonus.

So what do I do? I know I'm guilty of being imperfect because I'm human, but doesn't everyone? Why did God have to make it only to Jesus and not to anyone else? Didn't the know salvation story/Bible times take place in the Middle East? What about all the other people around the globe then? In South Africa? India? China? The Americas? I've already read the article on this site about those who never heard, but doesn't your theology state that after we die, we will either go to Heaven or Hell? Well, which one did they go to?

[zoegirl]

"Why did God have to make it only to Jesus"

Because Jesus, God's son, died for our sins.

YOu asked about forgiving, you gave the example of forgiving your children for anything even if they did not ask for forgiveness. But it is also about justice. If your child stole apack of gum from the store, it is not enough to simply forgive, there must also be justice. The gum must be paid for.

Let me give you another example..
If someone commits murder, then there must be justice. If we simply let the murderer off, there would be horrible cries of injustice.

We committed sin against God, we rebelled, God cannot simply excuse us, or else He would not be a justand righteous God. According to His righteousness, we cannot exist with God, sin and righteousness cannot have a relationship. But God is a great and LOVING God. He loved us so much that His son paid the price of that sin for us. He was sentenced to death and crucified for us. He sacrificed HImself for us!! Gman gave a great axample of the train.

But the glorious beauty of this sacrifice of Jesus, His sacrifice met the quality of justice (there was a payment for sin) and also shows the Love of God.

Regards

[johnnyboy08]

"Why did God have to make it only to Jesus"

Because Jesus, God's son, died for our sins.

YOu asked about forgiving, you gave the example of forgiving your children for anything even if they did not ask for forgiveness. But it is also about justice. If my child stole apack of gum from the store, it is not enough to simply forgive, there must also be justice. The gum must be paid for.

Yes, crime and wrongdoings must be paid for. But eternal punishment for something we did in an finite realm? Doesn't that sound unreasonable? Some say that our souls are eternal, but if we had a beginning, couldn't God give us an end, too, and simply put us out of existence instead of eternal Hellfire?

Let me give you another example..
If someone commits murder, then there must be justice. If we simply let the murderer off, there would be horrible cries of injustice.

Why would he/she murder? Do you really think that people are random killers that kill for absolutely no apparent reason? Though there is no such thing as a just murder or just war IMHO, would YOU punish your child for an eternity for murder? Can you bare to kill your child if he/she killed someone else? Two wrongs don't make a right. Sending someone to Hell doesn't make it right, even if he/she is a murderer or worse.

We committed sin against God, we rebelled, God cannot simply excuse us, or else He would not be a justand righteous God. According to His righteousness, we cannot exist with God, sin and righteousness cannot have a relationship. But God is a great and LOVING God. He loved us so much that His son paid the price of that sin for us. He was sentenced to death and crucified for us. He sacrificed HImself for us!! Gman gave a great axample of the train.

Simply excuse us? From what I've read in Romans (just started today), we just have to confess with our mouths. There are no works involved, right? So by us asking, that's just simply excusing us. I honestly can't see why someone would wind up in Hell for not saying a prayer and meaning it. That sounds unreasonable, too, don't you think?

But the glorious beauty of this sacrifice of Jesus, His sacrifice met the quality of justice (there was a payment for sin) and also shows the Love of God.

Regards

I'm sure God loves us. Can love lead to eternal suffering? If God is the ultimate being that can express the higher level of love, why would He also express the worst level of punishment? I would be more than happy to punish my children for their disobedience, but not for an eternity. I would be a terrible parent if I did that.

[Gman]

Thanks Gman. So exactly what are we suppose to do? Just confess? Isn't confessing a result of regret?

Sorry to leave you hanging but it looks like FFC handled it pretty well..

Don't human beings all feel guilt/sorrow for their wrongdoings?

I believe so, but do we accept God's sacrifice for our sins?

The Americas? I've already read the article on this site about those who never heard, but doesn't your theology state that after we die, we will either go to Heaven or Hell? Well, which one did they go to?

Johnny, we don't know.. It's up to God where they will go at the judgement, where he will reveal what we have sown in our hearts... The choice is ours though. God doesn't send anyone to hell... WE send ourselves to hell..

[johnnyboy08]

Johnny, we don't know.. It's up to God where they will go at the judgement, where he will reveal what we have sown in our hearts... The choice is ours though. God doesn't send anyone to hell... WE send ourselves to hell..

Doesn't that bother you? No really, how can you sleep or find peace knowing that there are actually people down there like ourselves?

How do WE send ourselves to Hell? God created us. God gave us free will. If it wasn't for Him, we couldn't go to Hell. I think half the blame's on God. I know we are accountable for our own actions, but the ability to sin was given to us by God. By ability I mean free will.

[Gman]

Doesn't that bother you? No really, how can you sleep or find peace knowing that there are actually people down there like ourselves?

Johnny... I have know idea what you are talking about..

How do WE send ourselves to Hell? God created us. God gave us free will. If it wasn't for Him, we couldn't go to Hell.

If is wasn't for Him we couldn't go to heaven either, or live on this planet..

I think half the blame's on God. I know we are accountable for our own actions, but the ability to sin was given to us by God. By ability I mean free will.

God created us yes, but he created us with free will too.. Man sinned not God..

[zoegirl]

"Why did God have to make it only to Jesus"

Because Jesus, God's son, died for our sins.

YOu asked about forgiving, you gave the example of forgiving your children for anything even if they did not ask for forgiveness. But it is also about justice. If my child stole apack of gum from the store, it is not enough to simply forgive, there must also be justice. The gum must be paid for.

Yes, crime and wrongdoings must be paid for. But eternal punishment for something we did in an finite realm? Doesn't that sound unreasonable? Some say that our souls are eternal, but if we had a beginning, couldn't God give us an end, too, and simply put us out of existence instead of eternal Hellfire?

But we need to understand the nature of God and teh nature of sin. God is completely righteous. Our sin was in rebellion to him and established us as enemies to Him.

Let me give you another example..
If someone commits murder, then there must be justice. If we simply let the murderer off, there would be horrible cries of injustice.

Why would he/she murder? Do you really think that people are random killers that kill for absolutely no apparent reason? Though there is no such thing as a just murder or just war IMHO, would YOU punish your child for an eternity for murder? Can you bare to kill your child if he/she killed someone else? Two wrongs don't make a right. Sending someone to Hell doesn't make it right, even if he/she is a murderer or worse.

It isn't an eternity for murder, it is an eternity for our being enemies of God.

We committed sin against God, we rebelled, God cannot simply excuse us, or else He would not be a justand righteous God. According to His righteousness, we cannot exist with God, sin and righteousness cannot have a relationship. But God is a great and LOVING God. He loved us so much that His son paid the price of that sin for us. He was sentenced to death and crucified for us. He sacrificed HImself for us!! Gman gave a great axample of the train.

Simply excuse us? From what I've read in Romans (just started today), we just have to confess with our mouths. There are no works involved, right? So by us asking, that's just simply excusing us. I honestly can't see why someone would wind up in Hell for not saying a prayer and meaning it. That sounds unreasonable, too, don't you think?

God can't simply say, Oh I guess it's all right, come back to me....

We must confess to Him that we are sinners and that Christ paid for our sins.

But the glorious beauty of this sacrifice of Jesus, His sacrifice met the quality of justice (there was a payment for sin) and also shows the Love of God.

Regards

I'm sure God loves us. Can love lead to eternal suffering? If God is the ultimate being that can express the higher level of love, why would He also express the worst level of punishment? I would be more than happy to punish my children for their disobedience, but not for an eternity. I would be a terrible parent if I did that.

Because our sin deserves separation from God. Hell is an actual place, but the ultimate suffering is the loss of the relationship with God. And this is our doing. We choose to rebel. He is a just God. There must be payment for our rebellion to God. It is stunning to think that not only did He provide a substitution for the punishment, but this restores the realtionship with Him as well.

Could love lead to suffering? His justice and righteousness means that we are separated from Him. His love meant that Christ sacrificed His life for us, so that His love prevents suffering.

[johnnyboy08]

So God allowed a problem to exist so that He can give a solution? Why would He create man, capable of sin and being His enemies, then create a solution to a problem He allowed?

[johnnyboy08]

Gman, does it bother you to know that there are people burning in Hell? Can you sleep well enough? Does it make you uncomfortable to know that perhaps there are family members and close friends of yours down burning right now as we speak? Would you be happy for an eternity with a being that allowed this suffering to last forever?

[Gman]

So God allowed a problem to exist so that He can give a solution?

Do we agree with the solution?

Why would He create man, capable of sin and being His enemies, then create a solution to a problem He allowed?

He might have allowed it, but who then ultimately sinned?

[johnnyboy08]

No offense to your God or belief, but look at the characteristic of your God...

He created something capable of imperfection that was of its nature. And for being the imperfect creature that it is, His creation goes to Hell. But He could've never did all of that. God could've never made man, but He did. For what? So we can worship Him? Is that worship worth the misery of Hellfire? Sounds to me like God has some serious egotistical tendencies...

[Enigma7457]

I have to jump back in. Sorry i was gone all weekend.

first of all, your problem with hell is a legitimate concern. It is not, however, a problem. I'm sure when all is said and done we will have a satisfactory answer for hell. The very fact that you have a problem with it is a strong case for the truth in Christianity. Do you think man would have invented hell, especially if he was trying to convert nonbelievers to Christianity. As i said before, Christianity is truth, which is the difference. Not all truth is pleasent or easy.

I also said before that i don't view hell as a place of eternal torture. I have a slew of notes on the subject and will have to look them up, but i believe hell is simply full separation from God, which is worse than eternal torture. (whether that is complete annihilation of the soul or whether that is a separate place where there is no GOd, i do not know).

I am in the same boat as you johnny. I have a lot of questions that are unanswered. Unanswered for now. I have accepted Jesus as my savior and i believe there is nothing wrong with Christianity (no moral flaw, no flaw in God, etc.) However, i don't see what's wrong with homosexuals (I am not one and could never be, but why call it abominable? [please don't try to answer this one, by the way, it is a retorical question]) However, that doesn't stop my faith. I believe God has an answer. Just because i don't know it (as a finite and imperfect being) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

God must be seen in his entirety. We simply can't say "Hell is bad so God is bad" (a crude version of the present argument, sorry). We know from the bible that God is abundent in forgiveness adn that he loves us all more than we can imagine. So that must be taken into consideration when we think of hell (and all those who haven't heard of God). I fully believe that if hell is eternal punishment and someone down there realizes their mistake (which isn't the sin itself but the failue to recognize Jesus as savior), i don't see why God wouldn't let them out (or whatever). He's merciful. I may be wrong, but that's my opinion. And again, if i am wrong, i'll find out in the end.

By the way, i have an example of why simply knowing of Jesus's sacrifice isn't enough. Imagine you were dying of something, and there was a medicine that would cure you. By your bedside is the medicine. Is believing the medicine is there and that it will help going to save you? No, you have to TAKE the medicine, let it in your body, let it cleanse you. Just being aware of Jesus isn't going to save you. You have to let him in. That's the biggy.

And i can't speak for GMAn, but it kills me knowing that some of my relatives are "down there". WHich, by the way, is probably the reason you have been given sales pitches by Christians trying to convert you. It KILLS them to know you're (theoretically) going to go down there. People seem to have a problem when others push there beliefs on them. But, if Christians honestly believe what they do (and we do) then it would be the most evil and diabolical thing to NOT share our beliefs. After all, every person converted is a saved life. It would be evil of me to keep your medicine from you, wouldn't it?[/list]

[Enigma7457]

No offense to your God or belief, but look at the characteristic of your God...

He created something capable of imperfection that was of its nature. And for being the imperfect creature that it is, His creation goes to Hell. But He could've never did all of that. God could've never made man, but He did. For what? So we can worship Him? Is that worship worth the misery of Hellfire? Sounds to me like God has some serious egotistical tendencies...

Imperfect creatures don't go to hell for there imperfections, they go to hell for denying their creator. For denying their medicine. Back to the example, it's like complaining that you're about to die without taking the medicine. All you have to do is take it. It doesn't matter that we were made imperfect and it doesn't matter that we are imperfect. All that matters is who made us. We need to let him into our life.