the problem of science

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:18 am

Arch

Could you please Elaborate. Most of us cannot follow your conversation if you are not willing to elaborate on what you are saying.

Thanks

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Mon May 07, 2007 2:18 pm

What happens when two Christian scientists in the same field have convictions about two separate drugs. Each is convinced God is telling them about the correctness of the drug.

this scenario is assuming that one has to be wrong which is not always the case. both could be right, why? because not all humans are made the same. some have allergies, some process things differently, some would be affected by side effects and so on.

God would know more than a scientists developing a drug and would know who could take such a medicine and who couldn't, thus the need for more than one drug.

with God, there are times thngs are more than they seem.one cannot limit God and must rely on Him, for He is the only one who knows what the drugs can and will do to certain people.

so if both scientists know they got it from God and it is proven that God did guide them,then distribute and use the drug for we musy obet God over man. if we don't, then we disobey God and that isn't smart.

this is why i say science needs to change and that those who believe God must depart from following secular ways, thinking and methods, for God has a plan, a purpose that is different from man's.

now the Bible does instruct us to test the spirits and has given us criteria to follow thus finding out if God did instruct the doctors is not a big task.

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Wed May 09, 2007 7:48 pm

another problem with science and many other fields is that they are elevated to positions of authority which God did not place them. at best science is a tool to discover more about God, how life works, to take care of allof God's creation.

basically there is nothing wrong with that. the problem comes in when science is used as the final authority on all matters, despite being proven wrong by miracles or other interventions of God. it has become a place of arrogance and false confidence because it does not recognize who is Lord of all, the secularist have seen to that.

all people have been given a measure of intelligence from God, that is a given. i am not saying that secular people do not have the ability or the intelligence to investigate, research, discover and so on.

what i am saying is that the secular world has gone in the wrong direction, set up rules which limit data and has allowed all forms of corruption to have an open doorway to enter. Christians cannot follow that way of doing things.

they must go by the way God has set things up, how God guides them for if they don't, how will non-believing scientists see the difference and know what is right or wrong or even see God in action?

i am not being specific because i do not know all situations and behaviors and it is up to you to re-examine your lives with God's help to see where and what needs to be changed. Do you want them to see God or the status quo way of doing things?

your first job is to bring glory to HIm not science.

oop_master · Post by **oop_master** » Sat May 12, 2007 5:16 pm

Christ stated that he would confound the learned and the wise, that they would walk about blindly.

Saying that one (mortal-perspective-limited) scientific view and one literally interepreted verse from the Bible is proof that God exists, or that one thing man discovers is proof that he doesn't, is of the wisdom of man, which is foolishness before God.

And which apostle said he was foolish to men, therefor learned in God?

Then comes worse when somebody already has a belief in a science or in a doctrine, then discovers this, or reads that (of the scriptures), and therefor says "this is the way it must be", ignoring ten contradictions from the same source.

This is a weakness we'll always have as men until Christ returns along with the angels, bringing his gospel in full.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sat May 12, 2007 6:43 pm

Can we agree on this:
God created so much more than the physical universe in which we exist as homo sapiens. There are principalities and powers and laws and created things which far exceed our abilities to ever comprehend by our limited minds. So given this, how can science which denies the existence of these things, ever hope to resolve anything? Its like the blind men examining the elephant. http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/bli ... phant.html

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:15 pm

Forum Monk wrote:Can we agree on this:
God created so much more than the physical universe in which we exist as homo sapiens. There are principalities and powers and laws and created things which far exceed our abilities to ever comprehend by our limited minds. So given this, how can science which denies the existence of these things, ever hope to resolve anything? Its like the blind men examining the elephant. http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/bli ... phant.html

Yes, I agree that science cannot answer questions about heavenly beings or spiritual powers or laws.

Science does not hope to resolve spiritual questions

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:22 pm

zoegirl wrote:Yes, I agree that science cannot answer questions about heavenly beings or spiritual powers or laws.

Science does not hope to resolve spiritual questions

Ya missed the point completely. Wonder if anyone else will get it.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:23 pm

So elaborate

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:31 pm

sorry but i am trying to figure out what oop_master is trying to say.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:42 pm

zoegirl wrote:So elaborate

I thought the blind men analogy was perfect. If science approaches any study denying a spiritual universe, they are touching the elephant as a blind man and concluding its like a snake or a tree or a wall. Science by its own definition limited its scope to exclude the larger reality. Therefore it can never truly know - what is the truth.

Again, it has nothing specifically to do with principalities other than to establish that a larger reality exists. One which is unmeasurable and unknowable by test tubes, microscopes, beakers, computers and (insert scientific tool here) and yet have a profound and real effect on our perception of the universe.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:54 pm

I agree and I didn't miss the point (whew)

I agree that science cannot measure or study the heavenly realm nor can it give us the complete truth. Never said it did. I do think it can provide us a glimspe of the glory of GOd, His creativiyt, His power, His wisdom...

"We see through a glass darkly"

I think though, we need to clarify. A proper scientific study doesn't deny the spiritual world, it just cannot study and measure it.

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Sun May 13, 2007 9:55 pm

A proper scientific study doesn't deny the spiritual world, it just cannot study and measure it.

he is not just talking about the spiritual world.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon May 14, 2007 3:48 am

That's correct, Arch. It is not a question of "seeing through the glass darky...". It is a question of refusing to see all. I am not talking about a study of spiritual things. I am talking about an approach to study which implicitly and explicitly denies the existence of God. It is the biggest flaw of science.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Mon May 14, 2007 7:14 am

Sometimes i wonder if we are all talking about the same thing. I think we can all agree that science cannot study the spiritual. That part is really not up for debate and i think all would agree. (If not, please post why). So, as such, science has its limitations. However, science is also very helpful. I corrdinate several different hearing centers. And, working closely with them, i see hundreds of people benefit with hearing aids. It changes their life. Science (albeit a different kind) has improved their life.

Okay, maybe a bad example. But it is still evident that science is helpful. We cannot throw it out, but we must also realize its limitations.

A proper scientific study doesn't deny the spiritual world, it just cannot study and measure it.

This is the best path we should take. Christian scientists, accepting the spiritual without the ability to directly study it, should still continue to study the non-spiritual.

*Disclaimer: The writer of this post makes no claims that he understands the writers of other posts. All statements contained herein are generic statements and do not reflect the writers's view of other posters in this forum. Please do not take any statements the writer has made as a personal attack or any other such way.

Sorry, i felt a disclaimer would beneficial, given the way we all (including myself) misinterpret or twist others words.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Mon May 14, 2007 7:22 am

That's correct, Arch. It is not a question of "seeing through the glass darky...". It is a question of refusing to see all. I am not talking about a study of spiritual things. I am talking about an approach to study which implicitly and explicitly denies the existence of God. It is the biggest flaw of science.

This is not a scientific flaw, it is a human flaw. There are a great many scientists who do not deny the existence of God. Only nonchristians scientists do that.

But, then again, nonchristians sports players do that too. As well as nonchristian doctors, nonchristian lawyers, nonchristian school teachers. Nonchristians will always deny the existence of God in what they endeaver, but we must always realize that this is the flaw of the human, not the flaw of where they work.

I say this next example with extreme caution. Please do not misinterpret it: I watch football, quite avidly (despite my losing jaguars

) and, despite the numerous drug-related arrests and violence and all the other stupid things some of the players do, i would never claim that football is responsible or somehow the cause of those actions. Football is neutral, the bad players are the problem. If we rid the game of bad people and only included the fair, team-minded, all-around good guys as players, it would still be the same football, only with no arrests.

So, if we rid science of the atheists (a very bold statement) we would have no problem with science denying God. We didn't change science, only its players.

*Disclaimer: See above post for disclaimer.