the problem of science

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon May 14, 2007 7:37 am

Hi Enigma.
I very much appreciate your post and your approach to understanding what I am trying to say.

Please everyone:

What I am NOT saying -
I am not saying "science bad" nor should science be abandoned. And I am not saying science should or is capable of studying the spiritual world.

What I AM saying -
Science by its very definition is a study of physical processes. Nothing more. As such its ability to understand anything is inherently self-limited. Basically it can only hope to understand physical properties and physical laws. God operates outside the physical domain, unrestricted by time or space. When we attempt to explain creation, the flood, the exodus or any of God's acts using science we are using a self-limited, restricted view point which can not accept miracles, cannot comprehend the effect of spiritual hierarchies and can never understand spiritual law. So given these limits, why do some people think it is beneficial to intentionally "look through a dark glass"? Why do they think it is a service to explain the things of God scientifically? It can not be done. And this is the fatal flaw.

Bottom line, science has its purpose in understanding physical processes. God and His work are supernatural processes operating in the realm of miracles. God does not need science nor does he use it to accomplish his purpose.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Mon May 14, 2007 7:55 am

Bottom line, science has its purpose in understanding physical processes. God and His work are supernatural processes operating in the realm of miracles. God does not need science nor does he use it to accomplish his purpose.

I have to disagree in part. I DO agree that science is limited to physical. However, better understanding science helps us to better spot a miracle. If the disciples had no concept that people can't walk on water, where is the miracle when jesus does it? They must first know what science says is possible to be able to spot something God does that is 'impossible'.

Also, God may not NEED science, but he certainly used. As i said, i was saved by it. Science led me to God, so i do believe it to be an integral part of the faith. I, personally, believe christianity to be the only religion that directly incorporates science, which is the main reason i see it as true. Christainity does not require blind faith. People like myself (and doubting thomas) can see the evidence for ourselves.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon May 14, 2007 8:30 am

Enigma7457 wrote:I have to disagree in part. I DO agree that science is limited to physical. However, better understanding science helps us to better spot a miracle. If the disciples had no concept that people can't walk on water, where is the miracle when jesus does it? They must first know what science says is possible to be able to spot something God does that is 'impossible'.

If you disagree with me, then I must try to convince you. A child knows you can not walk on water and a child does not need science to realize it. If anything, science impedes our ability to see miracles. People who are logical, educated, scientific (myself included unfortunately) begin to lack the ability to have faith as a child, and when miracles happen, always seek another explanation. Even when none is required. (I long to have a child's complete trust and faith, but my mind is an enemy of God) True Paul says I would rather pray with understanding, but he was not talking about understanding God, he was talking about understanding his own words. So much of God's work demands our faith without understanding. Understanding may never come until we see Him face-to-face.

Also, God may not NEED science, but he certainly used. As i said, i was saved by it. Science led me to God, so i do believe it to be an integral part of the faith. I, personally, believe christianity to be the only religion that directly incorporates science, which is the main reason i see it as true. Christainity does not require blind faith. People like myself (and doubting thomas) can see the evidence for ourselves.

Well in your case, I God performed another kind of miracle. It was He who opened your eyes as you sought to understand the truth. If you want to say, science led you to God, I can have my opinion about that, but I am not going to tell you you are wrong. I will praise God with you and I do!

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:16 am

Maybe the walking on water was a bad example.

If anything, science impedes our ability to see miracles

I can see this. And with that sentence, i agree. It does tend to make us search more for a scientific explanation. Although, it also helps us to not explain everything with a miracle. Like, for example, Zeus throwing lightning bolts.

Well in your case, I God performed another kind of miracle. It was He who opened your eyes as you sought to understand the truth. If you want to say, science led you to God, I can have my opinion about that, but I am not going to tell you you are wrong. I will praise God with you and I do!

I think in here you nail my biggest problem. I know it was God that opened my eyes (through science), but i tend to not think that way. My biggest problem is not putting God and my relationship with Christ first.

Your phrasing "was He who opened your eyes as you sought to understand the truth" is better than mine "Science led me to God"

That being said, i still believe that science is an integral part of the christian faith. Maybe not science, per se, but the use of the mind, the understanding of nature, the seeking.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:59 am

We agree.

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Mon May 14, 2007 2:30 pm

Bottom line, science has its purpose in understanding physical processes. God and His work are supernatural processes operating in the realm of miracles. God does not need science nor does he use it to accomplish his purpose.

i agree with what monk is saying and let me qualify what i have been saying. i have never said science is wrong in andof itself what i have said was that christians who follow the secular thinking, secular conclusions, secular theories andhave added them into their own ways are wrong.

for example, secular researchers claim to have found neanderthal remains, and they have found about 400 partial remains of what they claim to be from these 'people' there is no other evidence to support such a claim. secular researchers have constructed a theory and attributed many items to this species but they do not know that they are correct.

we as believers cannot accept this hypothesis because it runs contrary to what God said inthe Bible. we know that those remains could be from the pre-flood society, could be from a tribe after the babel disporia and so on.
once christians accept the secular thought, then they have just undermined what the Bible has said and thatisn't right.

people talk about using 'blind faith' for scriptures and they have a hard time with it yet all too often they use the same 'blind faith' to accept what scientists have said, which is supported by less proof and a lot of conjecture.

such actions are dangerous because the secular scientists,no matter how hard you disagree, are being deceived and used of the evil one to lead people astray and to have them go to alternatives other than God. christians cannot do this, they need to be more discerning and realize that what is being said by the secular scientist will have a mixture of truth in it to make their work seem plausible.

one has to be able to separate the truth and allow God to lead them to what He wants them to learn. if the evidence leads to God then you know that it will be true, if it leads to alternatives which disgree with the Bible then you know it is false.

as an example, the Bible says: 'God created...' ; 'God formed...'; 'God made...' and so on. It does not say: God used a process, God used natural selection and so on.

when science says one thing, the christian picks out what is true and disregards the rest. then builds and acts on what is the truth. one then stays with the truth and not science no matter what others say.

if you don't then you end up like all the rest deceived, compromised and heading in the wrong direction missing out on what God wanted you to find and promote. if you promote what secular science says to promote, then you are not promoting God but alternatives.

The Bible says: 'ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free' Jesus said 'I am the way , the truth...' that is where you start--Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and the Bible NOT secular science.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Mon May 14, 2007 3:28 pm

I can agree that the more we learn, the more tempting it is to discount miracles, that is the result of our sinful thinking. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the subjects itself. Believe me, I was worried about this when I started my grad classes....I was afraid of learning more...I prayed at the start of every class while walking to the room that God may give my wisdom.

Whenever I teach the Calvin cycle and the Kreb's cycle, I stand in awe of the complexity of God's processes...I see meadows of grasses and imagine the thousands upon thousands of molcular processes that are occuring throughout these cells....all in a process designed by God to harvest the energy of the sun. The stunning elegance of processes put together by God, the molecules trading electrons and protons in a crazy organized and synchronized dance. (what a science nerd!)

I have the privilege of teaching about the tiniest rotary engine designed to convert energy molecules from the power of a dam of hydrogen ions behind a membrane. (and don't even get me started on the membrane)

Whenever I teach the inner workings of the cell, I stand in awe of God's designs....the intricacies of DNA, the fit between enzyme and protein (and the chemical interactions that lead to the protein folding in the right way)

I see the beautiful structure of DNA and the orderly processes of DNA replication...the craziness of Okasaki fragments because of the antiparallel nature of DNA strands.

I have the honor of learning and presenting about the structure of ribosomes, the process of making messengerRNA, the processes GOD put into place concerning the translation of this messenger RNA, the speed of which continually blows my mind.

Every day I get the opportunity to marvel at the regulatory processes GOD established, transcription factors, even what we thought was junk now we are learning about its regulatory functions. Introns, exons, SnRP's, splicesomes....

I have the honor of teaching about how God designed inducible and repressible operons and the wonderful feedback systems He put into place that allow bacterial genes to turn on and off when they are needed.

Have fun and watch this...
http://aimediaserver.com/studiodaily/vi ... height=520

"We are fearfully and wonderfully made"

Physiology is a whole other boatload of amazement... simply the cellular responses in the rhodopsin molecules in the presence of light!!

Do I see God "fingerprint" through these? ABSOLUTELY, anybody who spends time studying different artists understands how much information can be gleaned from paintings about the artist.

Can science repair our relationship with God? NO
CAn science give us glimpses into what the spiritual world looks like? NO
Can science provide us with philosophy? Not really
CAn science provide us with truth? No more than philosophy, psychology, archaeology, anthropology, history, art, ....all of these, because of our sin, are going to give us unfocused vision...it is through God's word and His indwelling within us that allows us wisdom and discernment.

And, yes, I have the honor of teaching how God has revealed, even to non-Christian scientists, how DNA worked, how viruses are structures, and how the immune system responds. All truth is God's truth.

Do we really believe that secular scientists could get anything right if it weren't for God?

I think this is the ultimate irony and the ultimate sadness, that they are immersed in God's designs and they are missing the ultimate joy, worshipping the all-powerful, all mighty, all-loving God....and this God gave Himself and conquered death....

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Mon May 14, 2007 3:47 pm

Whenever I teach ,I have the privilege of teaching ,Whenever I teach ,I have the honor , Every day I get the opportunity ,And, yes, I have the honor of teaching

you like drawing attention to yourself and what you do, don't you. are you the only person who does this? or do you need to feel superior to others? or are you trying to justify your using secular thinking in your work and beliefs?

Do we really believe that secular scientists could get anything right if it weren't for God

do you really believe the evil one is that incompetant?

I think this is the ultimate irony and the ultimate sadness, that they are immersed in God's designs and they are missing the ultimate joy, worshipping the all-powerful, all mighty, all-loving God....and this God gave Himself and conquered death

you talk a good game but you still avoided the issue that forum monk raised. plus you are avoiding what i have said, trying to reassure yourself that the way you are doing things and the beliefs you are using are correct.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon May 14, 2007 3:52 pm

z/g,
We are truly wonderfully made, eh?

Evolution could not have done this and too bad ID does not specify who did.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Mon May 14, 2007 4:18 pm

If it wasn't clear, one can substitute scientists and Chrisian scientists for "I" in my posts.

Sometimes I am overwhelmed with joy that God has provided this job. Certainly didn't mean toot the proverbial horn.

I get a little defensive when people accuse me of not thinking Christianly. They certainly do not know how earnestly I pray for God to reveal Himself.

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Mon May 14, 2007 10:35 pm

get a little defensive when people accuse me of not thinking Christianly. They certainly do not know how earnestly I pray for God to reveal Himself

God already has revealed Himself start there.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:39 am

archaeologist wrote:
get a little defensive when people accuse me of not thinking Christianly. They certainly do not know how earnestly I pray for God to reveal Himself
God already has revealed Himself start there.

God has answered my prayers, My answers to the posts have shown what I have been convicted of. You just have already judged my heart. YOu just continually love to point out that you think I am needing to repent of my unChristian thinking.

YOu have your view of what the Hebrew says, many scholars agree to a different view....Again, let's agree to disagree.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:53 am

you like drawing attention to yourself and what you do, don't you. are you the only person who does this? or do you need to feel superior to others? or are you trying to justify your using secular thinking in your work and beliefs?

Why are you so aggressive? She was stating her awe of God the entire time. How else can she relate her amazement without stating how she is amazed.

archaeologist · Post by **archaeologist** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:45 pm

YOu just continually love to point out that you think I am needing to repent of my unChristian thinking.

it is not me, God is the one that is doing the pointing, i am just the messenger.

Again, let's agree to disagree.

can't, because if you say you believe in God then and you are incorporating wrong things into your beliefs then you must let God weed those things out so you can be a better christian.

YOu have your view of what the Hebrew says, many scholars agree to a different view

because they cannot accept what God is saying, one must look beyond the surface and see what lies underneath.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:52 pm

Arch:

it is not me, God is the one that is doing the pointing, i am just the messenger.

because they cannot accept what God is saying, one must look beyond the surface and see what lies underneath.

I am amazed at you, arch. You have that unwavering faith that eludes so many people yet you can be the most arrogant, pompous, and dismissive person I've met. You always assume that what you believe is the truth, regardless of everyone else. Now, it may turn out at the end that you are right, but, then again, it may not.