OEC v. YEC (Not a competition)

[Forum Monk]

Agreed. Adam named every living animal on the sixth "day". Common sense would dictate that either the "day" was longer than 24 hours, or Adam can talk really fast

Hey, where I have heard this before? Oh yeah, Rich Deem's article.

As we have always scrutinized scripture, carefully, prayerfully, and continually....

Good grief, we can't even agree to doctrinal positions !

We are not discussing doctrinal issues which mostly derive from implicit, not explicit declarations of scripture.

The words of Genesis are explicitly declared but many are choosing not to believe them as written. So some say, the current translations are incorrect. This is not true and it is a device to justify a different worldview.

This is the fact. God says 'I did such and such" but some in their wisdom or intelligence are saying "I know that's physically impossible, so you must really mean you did this and that" The people who do this are reading or hearing the words with a fixed world-view and applying their wisdom to the words. It s a filtering of the truth. Its impossible for God to do this in 24 hours so obviously some other interpretation is meant. And yet who is limiting God in this case? The biblical scholars who translated the words according to best principles of biblical interpretation and have not colored them with the wisdom of man? Or the modern, knowledgeable man who says, it is impossible in the natural, forgeting that God is God. He transcends all time and space and is not bound by the constraints of hours, minutes or days. Who is limiting God?

One looks at the words of God and says "Wow God, I have no idea how you did that but if you said you did, I believe it." The others says "Wow God, that's hard to believe unless you really meant this." We need to look at God with eyes of faith, not natural eyes. Faith is the confident assurance of things not seen. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

Not a big symphony person, prefer rock n roll.

Find a version of Brahms 4th symphony played by a good, strong, contemporary orchestra. Put on the headphones and crank it to 11. If you don't hear the rock and roll, the heavy theme, the beat, the rolling base-line; I will eat my hood!

[Enigma7457]

Hey, where I have heard this before? Oh yeah, Rich Deem's article.

And? Does that matter? Still a valid point.

The words of Genesis are explicitly declared but many are choosing not to believe them as written. So some say, the current translations are incorrect. This is not true and it is a device to justify a different worldview.

Not necessarily. IN ENGLISH the words are explicit. But, from what i understand, the original hebrew was no so explicit. THe words have different meanings.

This is the fact. God says 'I did such and such" but some in their wisdom or intelligence are saying "I know that's physically impossible, so you must really mean you did this and that" The

Maybe some, but not what i'm doing. And i don't care about others who do that. The point is that it is open to interpretation. Doesn't matter how long it took for him to make the earth, sun, universe. What matters is that he did. Now, i only want to know how long it took for curioussity's sake (and yes, i know what curiousity did to the cat).

One looks at the words of God and says "Wow God, I have no idea how you did that but if you said you did, I believe it." The others says "Wow God, that's hard to believe unless you really meant this." We need to look at God with eyes of faith, not natural eyes. Faith is the confident assurance of things not seen. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

Sorry, i can't do that. Lots of things God did are hard to believe (Jesus walking on water, time standing still in Joshua, the shadow moving backwards, every miracle ever) and i don't have a hard time believing them.

I don't have a hard time believing the six day account. But if the translation could mean six longer than day periods, why not read it that way?

[Enigma7457]

Find a version of Brahms 4th symphony played by a good, strong, contemporary orchestra. Put on the headphones and crank it to 11. If you don't hear the rock and roll, the heavy theme, the beat, the rolling base-line; I will eat my hood!

Brahms 4th? Can you film yourself eating the hood? I'd really like to see that.

[zoegirl]

Its impossible for God to do this in 24 hours so obviously some other interpretation is meant. And yet who is limiting God in this case?

But we are NOT saying it is impossible for God to have done this. We have NEVER said this. God could have spoken once and everything appeared. Obviously, God's power is not in question. It is a question of what He DID, not what He could do. God could do anything He wished....He could have created with age, He could have created a young earth, He could have simply spoken in a millisecond (whatever a millisecond is to God) and it HAPPENED.

(by the way, this is where really understanding the creation helps, no one who understands the complexity of universe would doubt His power, He could do it any way He wants)

See, nobody is doubting that He COULD do any of these things. IT is simply a matter of WHAT He did.

I think this points to a grave misunderstanding of the reasons behind supporting OEC. Somehow YEC think we are saying that God is limited and could not have done this in 6 days. But we are not, we are simply looking at both the scriptures and His creation and trying to see WHAT He DID. We are fully supportive of God being capable of doing anything He wants.

God says 'I did such and such" but

Ah, but, again, this is the question....the Hebrew.


As to symphonies....how about the second movement of Beethoven 9th? Just listened to it the other day....no amps needed, no microphones, still fast and furious...

As to the doctrinal issues, I don't care how they are derived, there are still intense discussion as to the *meanings* of scriptures as applied to salvation, communion, baptism....If questioning the interpretation of scripture becomes our reason to "throw is all away", then we would be in terrible danger indeed.

[Enigma7457]

Okay okay, enough with the symphonies. I'll look up beethoven's 9th as well.

Now, you both have to listen to a couple of my songs.

Bullets, by Creed. Listen to the words. I highly suggest you find the lyrics and read along with it. If you don't understand what he is saying, it can sound really bad, almost evil.

Breakdown, by Daughtry.

All these lives, by Daughtry. If you can figure out what the song is about, please tell me. Very elusive.

The Faceless Man, by Creed. Beautiful, beautiful song. (All Creeds' songs are. Buy their greatest hits and let it play through. Beautiful)

Always listen to the words and don't assume it is evil because it is hard.

[Forum Monk]

See, nobody is doubting that He COULD do any of these things. IT is simply a matter of WHAT He did.

So if you believe He can do it, just read...He tells you what He did.

Ah, but, again, this is the question....the Hebrew.

Its not the Hebrew. The Hebrew scholars agree with your Bible as written. I have a copy of a statement from a Hebrew professor at Oxford who states categorically that at no time in past history has any Hebrew teacher, rabbi, scholar ever believed that events of Genesis did not take place in six literal, 24-hour days, Adam and Eve were real people, the Flood destroyed ALL living things except those on the Ark and other such remarks affirming the written word. (I will send you the quotation and reference by PM if you wish). Further, I invite you to read for yourself from the Tanakh, the Jewish 'Bible' http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... pstoc.html I am trying to give you confidence that your Bible is not incorrect.


(Indirect *you* being applied here):
If you believe that God can do it, if God says he did it, if the Hebrews agree He said he did it, then what are you questioning? How He did it? He does not say, but ask Him when you see Him face to face. You will have an eternity to learn. How cool is that?



Edit: If you tried the link to the Tanakh and it failed, try again. I have fixed a small bug in it.

[Forum Monk]

Bullets, by Creed....Breakdown, by Daughtry...
All these lives, by Daughtry. If you can figure out what the song is about, please tell me. Very elusive.

The Faceless Man, by Creed.

Always listen to the words and don't assume it is evil because it is hard.

Creed I know, but I admit not giving Daughtry any play time. I'll check it.

Don't assume it's evil because its hard? Don't worry Enigma. I listen to every genre out there. Its the message and the artistry that attracts me.

[Enigma7457]

something wrong with Daughtry or just never heard of him?

[Enigma7457]

Not saying i necessarily believe this, but is it possible the six day account in general is metaphorical? Just to set the standard, so to say. Technically, doesn't God wait until after finishing his creation to mention Adam. Is it possible Adam was made after the creation and wasn't the man mentioned in Genesis one?

Just asking

[Forum Monk]

something wrong with Daughtry or just never heard of him?

Well, there is one 'genre/format' I pay no attention to. Pop. (Yea, I know who he is). Even talented pop generally has no content. Its quick buck, predictable music. Like I said I will listen to him though.

[Enigma7457]

I must whole-heartedly agree with you. I dislike pop. Daughtry is not pop. he may have had his start on american idol, but his music is not pop. Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and all those goofs are pop.

Although, i think you should throw hip-hip/rap in there with pop. My son likes it but i am weaning him off.

(I like country, as well, but i don't think any of this was the original topic of the thread)

[ttoews]

The words of Genesis are explicitly declared but many are choosing not to believe them as written. …This is the fact. God says 'I did such and such" but some in their wisdom or intelligence are saying "I know that's physically impossible, so you must really mean you did this and that" ….. It s a filtering of the truth. Its impossible for God to do this in 24 hours so obviously some other interpretation is meant.

I don't believe that anyone is saying that it is impossible for God to do X in 24 hours…..rather they are saying that the evidence indicates that God did not do X in a mere 24 hours.

And yet who is limiting God in this case? The biblical scholars who translated the words according to best principles of biblical interpretation and have not colored them with the wisdom of man? Or the modern, knowledgeable man who says, it is impossible in the natural, forgeting that God is God. He transcends all time and space and is not bound by the constraints of hours, minutes or days. Who is limiting God?

perhaps you when you limit what God could have meant with His inspired words in Genesis? Let's apply your approach to the following passage from the Gospel of John:

18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

The words of John 2:19 are explicitly declared….therefore, should we believe that Jesus rebuilt the Jewish temple in 3 days? It seems that the Jews and the disciples did indeed believe that Jesus was saying that he would rebuild Herod's temple in 3 days. Ahhh, but wait…at verse 22 more evidence is available so that the disciples can properly understand the words of Jesus at verse 19. It seems that God doesn't always mean what the explicit wording/literal interpretation would require and that the actual meaning is not grasped until further information is made available to God's faithful. So why should one insist on a 24 hour interpretation of wrt Genesis 1?

[Forum Monk]

Not saying i necessarily believe this, but is it possible the six day account in general is metaphorical?

A metaphor of what? Fill in the blank -

The creation is like a ______________.
The creation account is a type or shadow of _____________________.
The first day of creation is a metaphor of ______________________.

The Bible uses metaphors imo, but creation as metaphor? There are bigger themes in Genesis which convey to us God's overriding purpose. Remember, the entire creation was the first visible step to effecting our salvation.

[zoegirl]

A day is like a long period of time...

The days are from God's perspective...?

LOok, the biggest problem is that the observations don't fit, given that there are so many that show us an old universe.

TO me, God gave us senses that allow us to make true observations. I gave this link before but you can see how much evidence there is for an old universe


http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... iverse.php


Either we have ALL of these wrong or the universe is old

[Enigma7457]

You're right. Not really a metaphorical passage. Just looking into other options. Although some details are left out, i think Genesis gives us too many to be considered a metaphor. Why mention when you made the plants and the animals?

But, that brings me to my next point. Why mention them? If we follow the history of time, we will see it matching genesis, all except for the timescale. History says that first came x, then y, then z, and that it took billions of years. The bible says that first came x, then y, then z and it took 6 days (the 6 day part is open to interpretation). So maybe the importance is the order of the creation rather than the timeframe?

I don't know. Just throwing stuff out there.

I guess i can consider myself in the middle. I think the earth is old, but if i'm wrong i won't care. When God lets me know how old the earth is, exactly, he can explain why it doesn't match our look at time (at least right now. Ten, twenty, fifter, one hundred years from now, it may look different. The big bang may have happened a few years ago.)

I guess my biggest reason for clinging to OEC is that it makes the creation more tangable. I can look around and say, "So that's how he did it" (Although it still is impossibly amazing). I have this view of God in a white lab coat. First he sets the parameters (ie gravity and such) then he goes BANG and the universe starts. Then planet formation happens. When he sees Earth form, just as he knew it would come, he plants some animals. LEts them have their fun. Adds some more animals. Waits. Adds Adam and Eve and says "Be fruitful and mutliple. By the way, stay away from that tree"

Could be wrong. But when God lets me know the truth, i bet it'll be amazing.