Honor Suicides in Turkey

[Canuckster1127]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/ho ... 0000000001

Turkey is considered a relatively modern Islamic society.

How much of this is culture and how much of this is Islam itself?

Any thoughts?

[Turgonian]

The emphasis on honour, I think, is very cultural. A lot of cultures think in honour / shame rather than in clean conscience / guilt. The Biblical culture did too, by the way.
But here, honour seems to be compromised just by love...

I don't think Islam and culture are separable. Unlike Christianity, Islam is a political religion. It lays down political rules and knows no separation of 'church' and state. And given the nigh-obsession of Islam with preserving every appearance of chastity, I think religion and culture have so much fused in Islamic countries that you couldn't tell them apart.

[Gman]

Bart, I just got off the phone with my Dad on this... He use to teach there in Turkey and is pretty familiar with the culture.. He told me that for the most part Turkey is a democratic secular society (with separation of church and state) however, there are pockets of these extremist Islamic groups that hang around there too. Much like certain areas of the U.S. has it's bible belt regions. Even though Turkey is a democratic secular (muslim) society, there is some Islamic influence there, but probably not to the degree of Iraq or Iran. It seems it has a differnet view of how a democratic society should function than ours.. But not too much. Where honor would come to play here is a good question, but if a nation is more secular in it's views, I would imagine the role of honor (or it's understanding of honor) would follow it. Perhaps we need to understand the groups of Islam, than what the religon says itself.. Here is a break down of the these groups of Muslims, (from another post).

The secular Muslims
This is a good description of Muslims all over the world. They believe in the nice parts of Islam, but they reject the call to jihad. They take on the cultural trappings of the message, but they are not living it out completely. These Muslims may be very dedicated to their system of thought, even though it does not represent true Islam. The majority of Muslims around the world-both in the East and in the West-fall into this category.

The traditional Muslims
There are two types of traditional Muslims. The first type includes people who study Islam, know it and practice it, but they have a stumbling block with the concept of jihad. Some consider jihad to be a spiritual battle, like the Muslim Sufism movement.

The second type includes people who know that jihad is fighting non-Muslims, but they do not take action because 1) they do not have the ability to do it by themselves, 2) they are concerned about what would happen to their lives, family and children if they join a fundamentalist group, or 3) they want to live a nice life on earth instead of dying.

The fundamentalist Muslims
These are the ones who perpetrate terrorism. They sometimes have the long beards and head coverings. Their goal is to practice Islam as Muhammad did. Though we call them radicals, they are practicing true Islam.

[Looking for the Truth]

Bart, I just got off the phone with my Dad on this... He use to teach there in Turkey and is pretty familiar with the culture.. He told me that for the most part Turkey is a democratic secular society (with separation of church and state) however, there are pockets of these extremist Islamic groups that hang around there too. Much like certain areas of the U.S. has it's bible belt regions. Even though Turkey is a democratic secular (muslim) society, there is some Islamic influence there, but probably not to the degree of Iraq or Iran. It seems it has a differnet view of how a democratic society should function than ours.. But not too much. Where honor would come to play here is a good question, but if a nation is more secular in it's views, I would imagine the role of honor (or it's understanding of honor) would follow it. Perhaps we need to understand the groups of Islam, than what the religon says itself.. Here is a break down of the these groups of Muslims, (from another post).

The secular Muslims
This is a good description of Muslims all over the world. They believe in the nice parts of Islam, but they reject the call to jihad. They take on the cultural trappings of the message, but they are not living it out completely. These Muslims may be very dedicated to their system of thought, even though it does not represent true Islam. The majority of Muslims around the world-both in the East and in the West-fall into this category.

The traditional Muslims
There are two types of traditional Muslims. The first type includes people who study Islam, know it and practice it, but they have a stumbling block with the concept of jihad. Some consider jihad to be a spiritual battle, like the Muslim Sufism movement.

The second type includes people who know that jihad is fighting non-Muslims, but they do not take action because 1) they do not have the ability to do it by themselves, 2) they are concerned about what would happen to their lives, family and children if they join a fundamentalist group, or 3) they want to live a nice life on earth instead of dying.

The fundamentalist Muslims
These are the ones who perpetrate terrorism. They sometimes have the long beards and head coverings. Their goal is to practice Islam as Muhammad did. Though we call them radicals, they are practicing true Islam.

That's pretty accurate, but you forgot to mention that peaceful muslims ( the seculars and the traditionals) are going to Muslim Hell where they will be tortured by evil Allah for eternity.

This is a nice link on the subject:
http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes ... lims.Islam

[Gman]

That's pretty accurate, but you forgot to mention that peaceful muslims ( the seculars and the traditionals) are going to Muslim Hell where they will be tortured by evil Allah for eternity.

I don't believe that judging who is going to hell should be done by man regardless of their religious background. It is God alone who will judge man, not man himself..

[Looking for the Truth]

That's pretty accurate, but you forgot to mention that peaceful muslims ( the seculars and the traditionals) are going to Muslim Hell where they will be tortured by evil Allah for eternity.

I don't believe that judging who is going to hell should be done by man regardless of their religious background. It is God alone who will judge man, not man himself..

I agree with you. Where did I said otherwise?

I am simply stating that according to Islam, peaceful muslims WILL be sent for hell for not fighting the Jihad. I am not the one that made this up, "Allah" (Muhammad) did.