The God of Creation

[Canuckster1127]

If the intent of God and Moses were to imply long periods I think they could have done a better job of it.

How? Please be specific.

[hfd]

The wording, if God inspired, would have been specific. Again, we agree to disagree. Why would God make something as astounding as the coming into being of the universe and all that it contains so confusing. It was literal days.

Let me ask you. Were the days spoken of about the Deluge literal?

[Canuckster1127]

The wording, if God inspired, would have been specific. Again, we agree to disagree. Why would God make something as astounding as the coming into being of the universe and all that it contains so confusing. It was literal days.

Let me ask you. Were the days spoken of about the Deluge literal?

Let's stay focused on the issue at hand.

Stating that "The wording, if God inspired, would have been specific" is a completely meaningless statement. As you've already conceded that the word 'yom' can mean a period of time longer than 24 hours, the onus is on you to substantiate your claim and provide what specific words or arrangements, in your judgment, would indicate otherwise to you.

I'm observing a remarkable tendency, in one who has made so many appeals to "logic" and "facts" to throw out a judgment or opinion, present it as fact and then skate away looking for another issue to deflect attention.

Again, are you here with an open mind to discuss issues and willing to adjust your thinking or opinions in the course of discussion, or are you here simply to argue, cast doubt and accomplish your own agenda?

There's no evidence to me thus far that you are here to uphold the integrity of Scripture or even to consider it, but rather that you are here to tear it down by any means convenient regardless of the source if it will serve your immediate purpose.

Show me I'm wrong by sticking with a topic and seeing it through to conclusion.

[hfd]

The sources you rely on to defend a non-literal day are certainly no better than mine who defend a literal day. I asked you to provide a link where I said that the word yom could never have more than one meaning, that didn't happen.

I've been consitent in my assertion, based on the scholarly works of others, that the days spoken of in Genesis account of creation are literal. I brought up the issue of the flood merely to see what your opinion of those days is. There is really nothing more to say on the subject.

Interesting that you accuse me of 'tearing down scripture'. It's not I who refuses to accept a literal translation of Genesis. Nor is it I who says, Jesus did away with the law. Nor have I rejected the literal meaning of no graven image. We obviously differ. I'm sure you can appreciate the irony.

I apologize if I've offended anyone. I do not apologize for asking real questions about real situations found in the Bible. If that gets me banned, then all I can do is move along. Your game.

[Canuckster1127]

The sources you rely on to defend a non-literal day are certainly no better than mine who defend a literal day. I asked you to provide a link where I said that the word yom could never have more than one meaning, that didn't happen.

I've not made a claim that yom could never have more than one meaning. In fact my claim was the exact opposite, so your request smacks more of a strawman or smokescreen than anything else.

I've been consitent in my assertion, based on the scholarly works of others, that the days spoken of in Genesis account of creation are literal. I brought up the issue of the flood merely to see what your opinion of those days is. There is really nothing more to say on the subject.

You've been consistent in your selection of the scholarly works of others who serve your purpose regardless of whether you agree with their overall message or respect for Scripture.

My opinion of the days of the flood are that they are 24 hour days based upon the context of that specific passage which has nothing to do with how the word is used in Genesis given that we both have agreed there are different meanings of the word depending upon the context of its usage.

You continue to avoid the issue that "literal" does not mean "simplest" or what you want it to mean. Literal is tied to the text itself and requires interaction with the text to determine its meaning and that jumping and deflecting attention from direct questions whether from an unwillingness or inability to stay on point leads me to believe you are not here to interact and consider other views, but rather primarily to cast doubts and attack the positions of this board

Interesting that you accuse me of 'tearing down scripture'. It's not I who refuses to accept a literal translation of Genesis. Nor is it I who says, Jesus did away with the law. Nor have I rejected the literal meaning of no graven image. We obviously differ. I'm sure you can appreciate the irony.

Again, you appear not to understand the meaning of the word literal or the room for discussion as to the literal meaning of the passage which can and does allow for differing. As you've already indicated that you reject inspiration or at best pick and choose which portions of Scripture to accept based upon an agenda outside of any authority of the text, your appeal to that word is rather meaningless and hollow.

I apologize if I've offended anyone. I do not apologize for asking real questions about real situations found in the Bible. If that gets me banned, then all I can do is move along. Your game.

I'm not offended at all. If you were asking questions with a view to receiving or considering the answers you receive, I would expect your interaction to have some focus and willingness to stay with an issue.

Why the donning of the martyr's veil instead of dealing with all issues of the previous post?

[hfd]

I dealt with the issue. I accept the wording in Genesis as literal. You don't. What is ther left to say?

[Canuckster1127]

I dealt with the issue. I accept the wording in Genesis as literal. You don't. What is ther left to say?

I accept the wording of Genesis as literal. We've both agreed the word Yom can mean a 24 hour day or a period of time. The issue is context. You have yet to address that issue.

There's plenty left to say. You appear to be here to assert your position using strong claims of it being the only rational, logical or possible explanation of something and yet you cannot or will not focus upon an issue without dancing, obfuscating or redirecting all the while claiming the ground of unassailable, irrefutable fact and when pushed to it, this is the best you can do?

I'm disappointed, but if you want to leave it at that, then we'll leave it to those observing this thread to draw their own conclusions.

Regards,

Bart

[hfd]

I dealt with the issue. I accept the wording in Genesis as literal. You don't. What is ther left to say?

I accept the wording of Genesis as literal. We've both agreed the word Yom can mean a 24 hour day or a period of time. The issue is context. You have yet to address that issue.

There's plenty left to say. You appear to be here to assert your position using strong claims of it being the only rational, logical or possible explanation of something and yet you cannot or will not focus upon an issue without dancing, obfuscating or redirecting all the while claiming the ground of unassailable, irrefutable fact and when pushed to it, this is the best you can do?

I'm disappointed, but if you want to leave it at that, then we'll leave it to those observing this thread to draw their own conclusions.

Regards,

Bart

The context clearly indicates a literal 24 hour day. You disagree. Nothing I can say or links I can provide is going to change your mind. I'm not obfuscating, nor have I danced.

You just disagree and for some reason believe that I should succumb to your way of thinking. Sorry that you are disappointed. I realize and respect your position on this board, However, that doesn't neccessarily make you right. I believe you to be wrong on this issue. And the earth still revolves around the sun.

[Canuckster1127]

I dealt with the issue. I accept the wording in Genesis as literal. You don't. What is ther left to say?

I accept the wording of Genesis as literal. We've both agreed the word Yom can mean a 24 hour day or a period of time. The issue is context. You have yet to address that issue.

There's plenty left to say. You appear to be here to assert your position using strong claims of it being the only rational, logical or possible explanation of something and yet you cannot or will not focus upon an issue without dancing, obfuscating or redirecting all the while claiming the ground of unassailable, irrefutable fact and when pushed to it, this is the best you can do?

I'm disappointed, but if you want to leave it at that, then we'll leave it to those observing this thread to draw their own conclusions.

Regards,

Bart

The context clearly indicates a literal 24 hour day. You disagree. Nothing I can say or links I can provide is going to change your mind. I'm not obfuscating, nor have I danced.

You just disagree and for some reason believe that I should succumb to your way of thinking. Sorry that you are disappointed. I realize and respect your position on this board, However, that doesn't neccessarily make you right. I believe you to be wrong on this issue. And the earth still revolves around the sun.

I simply am asking you to stick with an issue, and questioning why you would appeal to sources for support which you on the other hand reject out of hand in terms of their view of Scripture.

You're certainly welcome to believe me wrong on the issue. I simply expected more from someone who entered with such a strong appeal to logic and rationality and thus far there's not been a lot to support that claim.

The inability or unwillingness to understand what the word "literal" means and continuing to repeat the erroneous use of the word doesn't lend a great deal of credence to your claims.

If you're going to enter a discussion board and skate the thin line of our puspose, you have to expect to be challenged and asked to back up your claims.

[hfd]

"I simply am asking you to stick with an issue, and questioning why you would appeal to sources for support which you on the other hand reject out of hand in terms of their view of Scripture. "

You criticize that I appeal to sources. Are you saying you never rely on extr-Biblical sources to support your position?

"You're certainly welcome to believe me wrong on the issue. I simply expected more from someone who entered with such a strong appeal to logic and rationality and thus far there's not been a lot to support that claim. "

I supplied links to those who are every bit as capable in defining the meaning of 'yom' in the issue we have before us. Obviously you don't accept them as on par with the opinion of others.

Rational thinking is not a prerequisite when dealing with the supernatural, God. The whole subject is metaphysical. The rationality involved is the wording in Genesis. You have an agend, Old Earth. I don't pretend to know. But, I cannot out of hand reject what is obviously meant in Genesis.

We are getting nowhere. You are convvinced that you ar correct. I'm not.

"The inability or unwillingness to understand what the word "literal" means and continuing to repeat the erroneous use of the word doesn't lend a great deal of credence to your claims."

I fully understand the meaning of the word 'literal'. In the case of Genesis or in any other circumstance. And in the case of Genesis, the word yom can in no way be literally interpreted as anything other than a day.

I hope this clarifies.

[zoegirl]

If the intent of God and Moses were to imply long periods I think they could have done a better job of it.

How? Please be specific.

The question you have never answered regards what other Hebrew words or phrases would apply here to use ages. Canuckster asked and all you reply again and again is that it can only by 24 hours, not answering his question. What other Hebrew words can apply here if Moses indeed wanted to convey ages?

[Canuckster1127]

I fully understand the meaning of the word 'literal'. In the case of Genesis or in any other circumstance. And in the case of Genesis, the word yom can in no way be literally interpreted as anything other than a day.

I hope this clarifies.

And we come full circle ..... Please support your claim.

It would be nice to see you demonstrate some of your own thinking and working with the material rather than simply tossing out opinions as facts.

[hfd]

"And we come full circle ..... Please support your claim.

It would be nice to see you demonstrate some of your own thinking and working with the material rather than simply tossing out opinions as facts."

Is your position factual?

[Canuckster1127]

"And we come full circle ..... Please support your claim.

It would be nice to see you demonstrate some of your own thinking and working with the material rather than simply tossing out opinions as facts."

Is your position factual?

You're the one making the claim. The onus is on you to support your position. Please do so.

The question is, if it were God's and Moses intent to communicate day as a period of time longer than 24 hours in Genesis, how should it have been done differently.

Thus far, the only answer you've offered is that they should have been more specific, which is not a particularly meaningful answer. How should they have been more specific? What word other than yom should they have used? How should they have used the word yom differently to convey that meaning?

Can you answer this without simply repeating your claim?

[hfd]

"You're the one making the claim. The onus is on you to support your position. Please do so.

The question is, if it were God's and Moses intent to communicate day as a period of time longer than 24 hours in Genesis, how should it have been done differently.

Thus far, the only answer you've offered is that they should have been more specific, which is not a particularly meaningful answer. How should they have been more specific? What word other than yom should they have used? How should they have used the word yom differently to convey that meaning?

Can you answer this without simply repeating your claim?"

I'll answer as simply as possible. I cannot think of any other way than God saying, 'I, God, took x billions of years to Create" I find that to be quite meaningful.

How's that?