No need to look for Jesus in the OT

[Jac3510]

This idea came up when I was recently debating a Jehovah's Witness. Rather than explain the debate, let me just copy/paste what was said (note - I have made several corrections for typos and such, but this is still by and large the exact wording):

• JW: What is God's name?
  Jac: It is not given in Scripture.
  JW: What version of the bible you have?
  Jac: All of them - KJV, NIV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NET, NWT, RSV, etc. You tell me, what is His name? The name of the Father?
  JW: Please read Psalms 83:18
  Jac: Ah, so you believe Yahweh/Jehovah is His name, commonly printed as "LORD" in English bibles, rather than "Lord", referring, of course, to the tetragrammaton--The hebrew letters YHWH.
  JW: Yes. Jehovah. Or Yahweh.
  Jac: So let me ask you a question. What do you think of John 1:18?
  JW: God was not seen by anyone. Only his son Jesus who is like his father has seen him.
  Jac: Ok, so in your view, the Father is Jehovah, but you agree that no one, except Jesus, has seen Him. So who did Abraham see in Gen 18?
  JW: The angel.
  Jac: Really, because 18:1 says this: "The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day." So, who appeared to Abraham?
  JW: OK. Let me search for you. I need to give you all the supporting verses.
  Jac: Ok, well while you do that, let me give you one more thing to search for. Just one. I don't want to overload you. In the OT, whose people were the Jews? I assume you would agree that they were Jehovah's, right?
  JW: Before, but when they reject Jesus they aren't his people now--only some of the Jews who accepted Jesus.
  Jac: For the sake of discussion, we can say that. I'm fine with that. OK, so you agree that the OT Jews were, at that time, Jehovah's people. In that case, then why does John 1:11 say, talking about Jesus, "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him"?
  JW: Thats why Jehovah let the Romans to conquer Jerusalem in 70 C. E. Yes, there are really True Jews. In general, though, they did not receive him, but there are a few.
  Jac: Doesn't it make more sense that JESUS was the one who appeared to Adam, to Abraham, to Moses, and to all the other OT saints? That JESUS is YHWH of the OT, which is why no one has seen the Father except Him? Therefore, it was HE who came to His own? You said the Jews were YHWH's people, but the Bible says that JESUS came to HIS OWN, not to YHWH's own. And if NO ONE has seen the Father except Jesus, but if OT saints saw YHWH, then it makes much more sense that JESUS is YHWH. Therefore, the Father is not named, but it is why if we know Jesus we know the Father.

This person still has not gotten back to me on this. I have asked them several times about it, and they are "stil thinking about it." But it brings up something that I thought was interesting. This means that we don't have to look for Jesus in the OT. Every single time we find YHWH mentioned, it is, in fact, the Second Person of the Godhead we are talking about. It seems to me that many Christians think that the OT reveals the Father's actions while the NT reveals Jesus' actions. But it seems to me that the entire Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, are, in fact, progressive revelation of the Son's actions in History.

Now, for those of you who love to be really precise, I'd actually argue that YHWH isn't the name of the Preincarnate Word. It's probably better understood to be the name of the Godhead as a whole. But and however, it seems to me the point I am making still stands. The Father's name is not Yahweh, and the Person we see acting in the OT is NOT the Father, but it is, in fact, the Son. In that case, He is everywhere. Absolutely everywhere.

Thoughts?

[B. W.]

Jac3510 ,

Do not forget to mention Isaiah 45:21-25 - It states plainly that only God can save and will save as well as verse 25 is astounding.

Next, Isaiah 59:15-16 as well as Psalms 98:1-3.

Since salvation can only come from God - who is Jesus then?

Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:43, Acts 4:12, Acts 2:21,38

Somethings can't be denied, yet, some people like to remain blind, lost in a sea of ignorance, denying that they'll never drown, and they swim proudly away from the life line you toss from the solid rock upon which we stand.
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[Byblos]

Now, for those of you who love to be really precise, I'd actually argue that YHWH isn't the name of the Preincarnate Word. It's probably better understood to be the name of the Godhead as a whole. But and however, it seems to me the point I am making still stands. The Father's name is not Yahweh, and the Person we see acting in the OT is NOT the Father, but it is, in fact, the Son. In that case, He is everywhere. Absolutely everywhere.

Thoughts?

Hi Jac,

Good to see you back. How are things?

I have to be honest I was taken a little aback at how novel you seem to think this idea is. I've always understood it as such, the OT revealing the WORD of God before the incarnation. I can't recall a single event where God (the Father) did things Himself so-to-speak. He always accomplishes things through the use of agents: a burning bush, fire from his finger, prophets, and finally his own WORD, the second person of the Godhead. Yes, most of the OT is a revelation of the WORD before the incarnation and the NT is the physical proof of Him. I do agree that YHWH refers to the Godhead and not just to the Father.

Gof bless,

Byblos.

[Jac3510]

Hi Jac,

Good to see you back. How are things?

I have to be honest I was taken a little aback at how novel you seem to think this idea is. I've always understood it as such, the OT revealing the WORD of God before the incarnation. I can't recall a single event where God (the Father) did things Himself so-to-speak. He always accomplishes things through the use of agents: a burning bush, fire from his finger, prophets, and finally his own WORD, the second person of the Godhead. Yes, most of the OT is a revelation of the WORD before the incarnation and the NT is the physical proof of Him. I do agree that YHWH refers to the Godhead and not just to the Father.

Gof bless,

Byblos.

I certainly don't mean to imply that I believe I've stumbled across some great truth that no one has seen before. But the reason it seems so novel to me is that it is! Maybe it's just a Southern Baptist thing, or maybe it is just plain one of those assumptions we make as children that never gets mentioned nor challenged, but I always looked at "God" in the OT as the Father. In evangelical circles, you have a lot of debate about Christophanies. Some people get really into those discussions, but I think it is because they have the same view of God that I had. They look at God in the OT as the Father.

Part of that, I think, is because the word "God" in the NT clearly DOES refer to the Father, for the most part. So, being the good little Christians we are, we read the word "God" in the OT and assume it must be the same Person. In fact, when I taught on this very thing at my church, the congregation about had a stroke. None of them had ever thought about it before!

So again, I really don't think that I've come across some new theological truth that has been misunderstood for all of Church history. Maybe it's just the circles I run in, or maybe it was just me and the few people I've talked to in this life. Who knows. I do know that the idea has given me much more appreciation for the OT than I had before, and this coming from someone who has always enjoyed studying the OT more than the NT, haha. Fun stuff.

And thanks for the welcome. Things are going fine - just too busy. I don't even have time for these posts, but I've kind of hit the ultimate "Whatever." I'm in my last semester of Greek for my present degree, though, so that's really good.

BW: Thanks for the other verses. I'm glad to see I have at least SOMETHING right in my theology

[B. W.]

We'll get into another on discussion the Trinity again if we are not careful

Always think of the word we use as 'God' to include Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The three are one and the one as three. Or when you read the word 'God' think in your mind 'Godhead' when reading the OT.

You'll see the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters of creation in Genesis chapter One, as well as when God declared, let Us make man in our image and our likeness — the plural 'Us.' You'll see in John Chapter one, Jesus was there also. You discover the three as one and the one as three when God confronted Moses on Mt Sinai and spoke with Abraham.

Three are one and the one is three, undivided, yet each an individual veiled incomprehensible unless God reveals himself as he so wills.

John 1:1-4, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” KJV

John 1:18, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” KJV or the as the CEV translates - “No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.”

John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” KJV

John 15:26, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me…” KJV
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[Jac3510]

I've not followed your theology. Are you not a Trinitarian?

[Canuckster1127]

I've not followed your theology. Are you not a Trinitarian?

I'll go out on a limb and answer that B.W. is a Trinitarian.

[B. W.]

I've not followed your theology. Are you not a Trinitarian?

I'll go out on a limb and answer that B.W. is a Trinitarian.

Yes I am a -Trinitarian,

"God in three persons - Blessed Trinity!" as the old hymm goes...

In fact all creation shouts this!

Romans 1:19, "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." KJV
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[FFC]

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[B. W.]

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Hi all,

Here are some interesting scriptures that you may need to know when discussing who Jesus is with those who do not believe the trinity

Isaiah 43:10, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." KJV

Hosea 13:4, “I, the LORD, have been your God since the time you were in Egypt. I am the only God you know, the only one who can save. -- Hosea 13:4, “But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.” ESV

Isaiah 53:1-3, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." KJV

Isaiah 59:1, "Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear..."

Isaiah 59:15-17, "Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke." KJV

Isaiah 45:21-24, "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed." KJV

Psalms 65:5, "You will give us an answer in righteousness by great acts of power, O God of our salvation; you who are the hope of all the ends of the earth, and of the far-off lands of the sea." BBE

Isaiah 42:5-8, "Thus saith God the LORD, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth, He that spread forth the earth and that which cometh out of it, He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and have taken hold of thy hand, and kept thee, and set thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the nations; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them." JPS

Note how the CEV translates verse 8 in Isaiah 42:8, "My name is the LORD! I won't let idols or humans share my glory and praise."

Isaiah 48:11-12, "For Mine own sake, for Mine own sake, will I do it; for how should it be profaned? And My glory will I not give to another. 12 Hearken unto Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the first, I also am the last."

Matthew 1:23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Isaiah 9:6, "A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace." CEV or as the JPS translates (9:5) "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;"

Isaiah 53:1-3, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

Philippians 2:6-11, "In God's own form existed he, And shared with God equality, Deemed nothing needed grasping. 7 Instead, poured out in emptiness, A servant's form did he possess, A mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be, 8 And lived in all humility, Death on a cross obeying. 9 Now lifted up by God to heaven, A name above all others given, This matchless name possessing. 10 And so, when Jesus' name is called, The knees of everyone should fall Where'er they are residing. 11 Then every tongue in one accord, Will say that Jesus Christ is Lord, While God the Father praising." ISV

For those of you who do not think the bible teaches the concept of the Trinity? Who was Jesus if only God can save?

Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. KJV

Are you wiser and smarter than God?

Isaiah 55:6-7, "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

Isaiah 55:11, “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”

You who do not grasp who Jesus is doubt God's word by twisting it to suite your taste? Again, are you wiser and smarter than God? Why do you continue to esteemed him not?

It is plain who Jesus is —

Acts 4:12, “There is no salvation by anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." ISV

Acts10:42, He also ordered us to preach to the people and to testify solemnly that this is the one ordained by God to be the judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets testify that everyone who believes in him receives the forgiveness of sins through his name." ISV

Note: All Bible quotes from JPS, KJV, ISV, BBE, ESV unless otherwise marked
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[Byblos]

Great post and a very nice summary B.W., thanks.