the case against evolution

[zoegirl]

Hm interesting zoegirl about the changing in phenotypes. OK, but how does it happen? only phenotype changes, but no genotype? or does genotype change as a result? how can ph change just like that? and doesnt this get passed to next generations? somehow...
cos what causes this change in our genes to produce different hair color for example?
nurture having an effect on nature??

BTW noithing wrong so far with all this; isnt it looking kinda pro-evolutionist??

Well, we need to differentiate between genetic mechanisms and the role they play in natural selection.

Phenotypes change because genes can be turned on and off. There are amazingly cool processes that are put in place to control what genes are transcribed and what proteins are made and even how long the mRNA molecules and proteins exist in the cell. From a foundational principle, this is true when you think about all of the different types of cells in our bodies. Muscle cells, nerve cells, intestinal cells, white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets all have (with the exception of mature red blood cells) the same genotype. They all have the same genes. (This is why they can clone animals with just using a body cell, all cells have the genetic capability of producing a new you). However, think about the fact that all of these cells have different genes turned on. You don't have skin cells secreting acid and stomach enzymes and stomach cells growing hair!! Because in each of these cells only the appropriate genes are turned on (in fact, much of what defines a cancerous cell is, is simplistic terms, a cell that has lost its identity.

Now, from an organism level, our phenotypes change throughout our lifetime because genes turn on and off. I already used the hair example. THere are plenty of examples of brown hair parents having a blond hair child who then develops brown hair. THis is simply an example of how complex gene interactions are. Some genes turn on other genes and these could be dependent of development or age of the organism. Reproductive capabilities is another example....when menopause starts, those genes regulating the mentrual cycle change....


Now even though genes are turned off they are still there. Independent assortment during meisosis assures that they will be passed down to some of the offspring. I have read that there is a facscinating new research into how the environment can methylate chromosomes and genes and affect how they function (this is sad that I cannot remember what they are calling the new area...I just read this last week...!! My poor memory!! ) Yay! EPIGENOME!! found it...here is a quick link http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/08/68468

YOu also brought up the implications for evolution. I've never had a problem with microevolution or selection. Certainly there are plenty of examples in research showing population changes over generations. My skepticism comes with whether selection/microevolution has the power to generate such large scale changes as to then lead to the changes seen in accounts in earth's history.

As to the cancer/death....I doubt that selection, as nice and logical as that model sounds, can eliminate cancer and certainly, as was brought up already, death and decay are something that exists and doubt we can eliminate it....postpone it? MAybe.

Help?

[madscientist]

Thx zoegirl, made some things clearer - but as philosophy and that, maybe made me ask even more questions thatn i already had ...
Thats kool, never thought it hapened. always wondered wat made the differences between the races - each nation has its own genetic info, ok, but also way of thinking, nurture. Why is it so? We tend to blame people for what they are - but which is it?> And now environemnt can turn genes on.
But why are these genes turned on and off? and to have ability to produce e.g. brown hair, doesnt it need to be in genetic info ofd the child? if it only had genes for blond, would it ever have brown? is it the dominant/recessive? and what makes some rec and some dom? can these changed? haerd that yes
read some ofthe epigenome article kool stuf. im interested in studying bio and chem at university, duno wat course to choose, am doin my last yr at highschool... biology is a nice science, true. But hard, too Thought about neuroscience - is it interesting? (you know some bio, so hope u dont mind if i ask for some advice)
as for death and cancer - think the same: reduce it but death cant be eliminated. had some weird thoughts about prolonging human life: WHAT makes it that one dies? if the brain could be kept alive, whilst some younger brain is being developed, and these 2 are joined, and old dies, and all has been transformed the person could continue to love etc - well crazy thoughts haha!
cancer? maybe, but thats hard.

and is all this acceptable as a creationist view? because science goes against religion. I dont want to believe in evolution but i believe that things didnt just "appear" randomly; that they all had their time and God guided that according to His will.

[zoegirl]

Thx zoegirl, made some things clearer - but as philosophy and that, maybe made me ask even more questions thatn i already had ...
Thats kool, never thought it hapened. always wondered wat made the differences between the races - each nation has its own genetic info, ok, but also way of thinking, nurture. Why is it so? We tend to blame people for what they are - but which is it?> And now environemnt can turn genes on.
But why are these genes turned on and off? and to have ability to produce e.g. brown hair, doesnt it need to be in genetic info ofd the child? if it only had genes for blond, would it ever have brown? is it the dominant/recessive? and what makes some rec and some dom? can these changed? haerd that yes

Hmm, ok, the if a person has the gene for brown hair, he always does and had it since b=irth. But hair color is a measure of how much melanin is being produced....and that is a measure of how many protein molecuels of melanin are being produced and that is a measure of the gene being turned on. Think of genes as being the blueprints for the product (protein). The facvtory that makes these proteins (ribsomes, RER, Golgi...) can only make them with the instructions and the amount of instructions then correlates to how many proteins are made. SO a baby/toddler may have blond hair but as he ages, the amount of meleanin increases as a result of the number of melanin moelcules made. THis is similar to someone who turns a faucet on. You wouldn't say that there is no water capable of being produced, yo uwould simply say that the faucet is turned off. This is what happens to genes all the time. In fact this is what causes albinism. An albino person does have the genes for making melanin, they just are lacking the gene tha codes for a protein that turns on the gene for melanin.

read some ofthe epigenome article kool stuf. im interested in studying bio and chem at university, duno wat course to choose, am doin my last yr at highschool... biology is a nice science, true. But hard, too Thought about neuroscience - is it interesting? (you know some bio, so hope u dont mind if i ask for some advice)

It's some of the coolest stuff ever! All of it is hard....but it does get easier as you get used to it. The first two years at university were, for me, the toughest. But I love studying it...YOu got to understand....I never could choose....I love it all, although I do have a fondness for cell biology...I figured the best of all worlds is to teach it, so I go from one favorite subject to the next. I wish I knew more about neuroscience....it is some crazy stuff, I was graduating from undergrad when much of the research into neuroscience was exploding, so I kind of missed it. And then none of my grad classes really addressed it.

as for death and cancer - think the same: reduce it but death cant be eliminated. had some weird thoughts about prolonging human life: WHAT makes it that one dies? if the brain could be kept alive, whilst some younger brain is being developed, and these 2 are joined, and old dies, and all has been transformed the person could continue to love etc - well crazy thoughts haha!

Ah, I see you are living up to your namesake fifteen years from now we will be hearing about some madscientist and we will be able to say...."we knew him back when he was posting crazy threads at G & S"

cancer? maybe, but thats hard.

and is all this acceptable as a creationist view? because science goes against religion. I dont want to believe in evolution but i believe that things didnt just "appear" randomly; that they all had their time and God guided that according to His will.

WEll, you will find different views out there, but God established mankind as stewards to HIs creation. One of the first mandates in scripture was to govern God's creation. The fall didn't remove this resposibility from us. To be good stewards we need to understand HIs creation. I think right now, scientific reasoning is still one fo the best ways one can learn about HIs creation. Obviously there are *scientists* that are against religion, but there are some numbers out there of scientists who are either neutral to Chrisitanity or who are Christians. Francis Collins even became a Christian while He was head of the Human Genome project.

[madscientist]

Hmm, ok, the if a person has the gene for brown hair, he always does and had it since b=irth. But hair color is a measure of how much melanin is being produced....and that is a measure of how many protein molecuels of melanin are being produced and that is a measure of the gene being turned on. Think of genes as being the blueprints for the product (protein). The facvtory that makes these proteins (ribsomes, RER, Golgi...) can only make them with the instructions and the amount of instructions then correlates to how many proteins are made. SO a baby/toddler may have blond hair but as he ages, the amount of meleanin increases as a result of the number of melanin moelcules made. THis is similar to someone who turns a faucet on. You wouldn't say that there is no water capable of being produced, yo uwould simply say that the faucet is turned off. This is what happens to genes all the time. In fact this is what causes albinism. An albino person does have the genes for making melanin, they just are lacking the gene tha codes for a protein that turns on the gene for melanin.

Interesting. OK but why do these genes get turned on/off? and why if it unlikely that it is straight from 1 generation to next one? and can these be changed; e.g., parents with genes for only blond hair breed and breed, and in a few generations their offspring will have brown hair? Ya heard its ONLY proteins that genes are coded for, but what the heck causes all the differences in the way we think, our persomnality, too? and can personality genes also be turned on and off, e.g. that a person may become more aggressive for example? And also wondered why it it - maybe off topic but - why is it that just by looking at someone - physical view we can say a lot about his personality; if this si true and our physical view is predestined by our genetics, and this shows our personality, then we cant blame our personality, can we? WIthin seconsd you can tell which person looks like a shy, who looks proud, who looks a good person, who kind of evil, who lazy etc - or is it just an illusion??

It's some of the coolest stuff ever! All of it is hard....but it does get easier as you get used to it. The first two years at university were, for me, the toughest. But I love studying it...YOu got to understand....I never could choose....I love it all, although I do have a fondness for cell biology...I figured the best of all worlds is to teach it, so I go from one favorite subject to the next. I wish I knew more about neuroscience....it is some crazy stuff, I was graduating from undergrad when much of the research into neuroscience was exploding, so I kind of missed it. And then none of my grad classes really addressed it.

hm kool. I hope neuroscience will tell us a lot about free will anbd all that and why we act the way we do, and what is happiness (brain chemistry? yea, thought it was not true but came to realize it IS result of our neuronic connections that we feel what we feel and its not out fault HOW we feel etc) koz im interested in this kinda thing. I wish i knew more about this stuff haha

Ah, I see you are living up to your namesake fifteen years from now we will be hearing about some madscientist and we will be able to say...."we knew him back when he was posting crazy threads at G & S"

He ya that would be kool! i wish ill do some nice things but yea i still have to choose my course, and I hope God will guide me through it koz it wil be one of the biggest decisions in my life...

WEll, you will find different views out there, but God established mankind as stewards to HIs creation. One of the first mandates in scripture was to govern God's creation. The fall didn't remove this resposibility from us. To be good stewards we need to understand HIs creation. I think right now, scientific reasoning is still one fo the best ways one can learn about HIs creation. Obviously there are *scientists* that are against religion, but there are some numbers out there of scientists who are either neutral to Chrisitanity or who are Christians. Francis Collins even became a Christian while He was head of the Human Genome project.

Ya it can happen but if someone decides to go against God then its hard to come back again. True that we are to try and understand His creation but science often goes against Bible so thats why it kind of seems paradoxical. but i wish science could make arguments FOR God, not against...