Hello B.W.
I'm beginning to see the problem with our communication. We read the same verse and come away with a completely different understanding.
B.W. wrote: Sources:
Matthew 22:41-44, “Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42"What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, “The son of David." 43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44 THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET?” NASB
You left off the last verse and the whole point of his question.
ESV Mat 22:45
If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?"
B.W. quote: Hebrews 1:1-4,, “1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs… "Let all 6-God's angels worship him"…” NIV
The verse reads
Jesus BECAME superior. How? He
INHERITED it. It also reads the Son is the radiance of whose glory? Yes, Gods. The exact representation. (Agent)
NASB 1Co 15:25 For
he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him,
then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
How long will Jesus reign? “
Till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Then what? Then Jesus will become subjected to God. There is no co equal-trinity in that verse.
B.W. wrote: Hmmm, Jesus created the universe and is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
Once again, we read the same verses yet, come away with a completely different understanding. Remember Jesus is the center of God's plan for humanity. The key is (
Dia) Through him, meaning with Jesus in mind. I already posted on this.
So what saith the scriptures on who created the universe?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning
God created the heavens and the earth.
You will note it does not say Jesus here but God. But lets turn to Jesus own words. He will tell us who did the creating. First, I would like to look at your “Who then is Jesus?” quote. Jesus is the first born, but what does that mean?
The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”…
preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 40 9:3)
Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim's brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:
Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And
I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.
In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king's superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of
all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from
the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.
The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ return is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (
arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18).
However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.
To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."
Christ the Head of the New Creation
The various popular English translation are at odds as to whether the Son is "the first-born
over all creation" (as in the NIV and NK JV), thus first in rank, or whether he is "the firstborn
of all creation" (which reflects a literal translation of the genitive case, as in the KJV, RV and NASB), meaning first in time, which would refer to Christ being the first-created being of creation.
We evidently need the wider context to determine which nuance fits best. It is clear that Paul continues his line of thought in the next verse, as he uses the conjunction “for”: "For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities- all things have been created through him and for him" (v.16).
Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth. He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.
Mat 19:4 He answered,
"Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Remember Jesus has a God…"Blessed be
God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)
Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.
Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things
in the heavens and
[up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.
This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).
All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the
new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ's exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ's] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus' obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).
It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already.
Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.
B.W. wrote: Yes, Jesus was a man but he was also God manifest in the flesh so that God is not guilty of breaking his on word and commands given on Sinai. For Jesus to be worthy of such of honor, renown, glory, worship, praise and for Jesus to be able to forgive sins which only God can do, means the Messiah was and is God manifest in the flesh so that now we can look upon God and live! This is what the book of Hebrews writes about: God manifest in the flesh.
If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.
Heb 5:6 as he says also in another place, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8
Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. You fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments…
NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them,
"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
There is no God in the flesh hybrid (
Theos aner) in these verses.
If Jesus is already God in the flesh then He can not have a God because it would be two Gods not one. Yet, scripture clearly tell us he does have a God, both before and after His resurrection. Philippians 4:20; Ephesians 4:6; John 20:17; Matthew 27:46; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:2.
B.W. Wrote: Your doctrine depends on religious pride unaware how this blinds and twists scripture to reject the living God to serve one of your own making. Such doctrine is full of prideful bluster because if Jesus was but only one mere mortal man — his blood could not atone, never cleanse anyone from sins forever, and could never save. In seeking to establish the Oneness of God, your doctrine instead destroys the oneness much in the same manner as the ancient Pharisees, Scribes, Sadducees once did, and that many religious leaders and cultic groups, who agree as one, have done in the past and continue to do so to this day.
Such doctrine as yours would have been no threat to the religious establishment during the time of Jesus and the Apostles and neither Jesus nor Paul would have wasted time warning the first century Jewish Believers to beware of anything.
The Jesus of your doctrine preaches can never forgive you of your own sins as it is written — “I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images…“I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed”
The doctrine you have shared is ashamed of Christ Jesus and incensed that his precious blood atones and forever cleanses away all sin. The Jesus you preach can do neither, just as the Christiadelphians espouse and proclaim:
What? B.W. this is just an emotional response. Jesus died on the cross for ours sins. Jesus died! Your theology says that God died on the cross. The only problem is God can not die. So Jesus would have had to pretend to die and thus there would not be any forgiveness of sin because he really didn't die.
Let's see who can forgive sins.
Mat 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic,
"Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Mat 9:6 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."
Mar 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again,
"Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them,
"Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
Now learn something here, Jesus never forgave sins before He was anointed with God's Spirit. Now the Apostles have the ability to forgive sins, once again only after Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. Are you saying the Apostles are now God because they can forgive sins? No they are not. They are however now Agents of Jesus the Christ and "have authority on earth to forgive sins".
"As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Peace
Paul
