More Trinity stuff

[B. W.]

Let's get back to the Trinitarian definition of God — When Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If they want to refer to one specific member of the Trinity they will use the corresponding name such as "the Son" etc. ..Simple enough. Okay, one set up verse. Trinitarians will agree that there is only one God who is called Yahweh. The problem is that they include Jesus as a member of Yahweh. But for now, we both agree that the only God is Yahweh...Isaiah 45:5 — "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."...This is pretty simple. YHWH is the ONLY God. So far, so good.
Exodus 3:15 — "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."...Okay, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the LORD (YHWH)....The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH. Acts 3:13 — "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servantJesus."....Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham's SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God's anointed....Acts 10:38 — "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.".......Who anointed Jesus? It doesn't say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will. That is the whole purpose of anointing someone, to give them the wisdom and power that they will need in order to serve God. Does it make sense to you that God would anoint God with God? Let's look at a Messianic prophecy in the Old Testament...Isaiah 61:1 — "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD (YHWH) has anointed me."

How can I answer every one of your objections as you keep posting in such a manner that avoids you answering the question I asked? Only God can save…Who then is Jesus?

You do not answer this question and obfuscated it with much scripture twisting. This is a common tactic employed those in cults employ by use of much verbiage to intimidate anyone with objections.

Therefore, I must address your inquest for the reader's sake so that they can see what you are doing: twisting scriptures to suit you own ends. Earlier, you went on and used a bunch of scriptures like this: Titus 1:4 — "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our savior,” in an attempt to proclaim that only God is Father and the son only a mere exalted mortal man.

Such scriptures as this do not point out such a distinction. In fact such scriptures as these point towards a direct relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit by recognizing each as one God — the undivided Trinity. They are directly related to each other. Are you related to your earthly father or not? Jesus was both God and Man — this was the Messiah! Isaiah 53:1, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?' This is hard for you to believe.

Why? Well it answers the inquiry of this thread — Is the Trinity Important for Salvation. It is because it reveals which Jesus you are trusting in for salvation. Man's work for salvation or God's work which is of his Grace? It directs you to place your faith and trust in the right Jesus that the bible proclaims:

2 Peter 2:1, “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” ESV

Galatians 2:4, “Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in--who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery.“ ESV

Mark 13:22, “For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.” ESV

Isaiah 53:1, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?' This is hard for you to believe. This is a test that sorts chaff from the wheat. Jesus was both God and man, reconciled, Bible tells Jesus as God empty himself and took the form of a servant Philippians 2:5-11. You are obfuscating the issue: God will not share his glory with another as only He can save. Is God without sin? Can God do evil? Does God have a sin nature? Job 34:10-14, Deuteronomy 32:4 The answer is NO. Was Jesus without Sin? Did he have a sin nature — Did he do evil? The answer is the same-NO:1 Peter 2:21-23, Hebrews 4:15, 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. There you have it — a common relationship which points out something about Christ.

Now, regarding man/women, do we have a sin nature, can we do evil? Romans 3:10-11 Have not all of God's anointed people sinned at some point? Answer is yes. Would God share His glory to only a mere mortal man with a proven track record as this or instead make a new Adam in which He Himself resides so that only He can save and keep his word? This is the mystery of godliness — Who was manifest, 1 Timothy 3:16— God and man reconciled — restoring piety towards God through Christ Jesus. Does the bible teach God will make a new Adam? Yes — this is the Messiah — God manifest in the flesh. For example, when did Jesus see the Father as he himself so stated in John 6:46 if no man can see God and live and that if he did not preexist as God? Jesus was both God and man — yet you can't make this connection in an effort to exalt mortal man to do what only God can do.

Isaiah 45:21-24, “21 Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By Myself I have sworn, My mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of Me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' "All who have raged against Him will come to Him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.” NIV

Next the bible teaches that God the Father judges — 1 Peter 1:17,Romans 2:1-11, yet all judgment was given to whom?

John 5:22, “The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son.” ESV

God will not share his glory with another — not even an anointed mortal agent because this would make mortal man, a creature, greater than God himself. He will not share that Glory and only he can save. Jesus and the Father are One. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one! Isaiah 53:1, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?”

For you to declare that Jesus is your Lord and Savior with the meaning that Jesus was but a mere exalted anointed man, an agent, who overcame sin by his own work would be in direct violation of the first parts of the Ten Commandments. In fact you would be guilty of blaspheming. Such doctrine as yours would prove the Bible a complete contradiction: “And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other,” and if contradiction — then the entire bible is untrue and fable. Congrats — then you have done what Atheist have tried to do before you and failed!

For God to be able to keep his word and perform it would mean making a new Adam where God and man become one with each other — related to each other. That is the Messiah — the God-Man — Jesus Christ the anointed of God. This way — God remains true to his word and there is no contradiction proving the bible false as your doctrine does.

Isaiah 53:1-3, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

Matthew 1:23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. "

Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. "

Isaiah 9:6, "A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace." CEV or as the JPS translates (9:5) "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; "

John 10:30-31, “I and the Father are one. 'They' picked up stones again to stone him.” ESV

John 8:54-59, “Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” ESV

Matthew 22:41-46, “Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42"What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, “The son of David." 43He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44 THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET'?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.” NASB

Only God can save…Who then is Jesus?
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[Pierac]

B.W. wrote: Only God can save…Who then is Jesus?

Are you reading my post? Who wrote anything about Jesus doing anything on his own? I certainly don't believe that. Ok then, I will re-post and try to explain in blue so you can see.

In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).
Look at the words… From God, reconciled, to himself, and through. God reconciled us to himself through Jesus. It does not say Jesus reconciled us but GOD! Read it again B.W. God is the one doing!

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).
Look here, Jesus has a God and Father. If He is God then how can he have a God. He can't! It says God the Father predestined us through Jesus to himself. It does not say Jesus predestined us.

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).
Once again it is God obtaining salvation through Jesus. Not Jesus obtaining through Himself.

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).
Who will Judge? God. How? Through Jesus. Once again it is God's doing not Jesus.

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).
Who has saved us? God. How? In his Son Jesus. Jesus does not save us, God does through Jesus!

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).
Again, God and Father of our Lord Jesus. So who causes us to be born again? Was it Jesus? No. It is God the Father. How? Through the resurrection of Jesus. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did Jesus raise Himself? No, it was God the Father.

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).
Here you go B.W. "To the only God our Savior, How is He our savior? Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).
Read it B.W. Jesus was a man attested by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him. Who performed the miracles and wonders and signs? Was it Jesus? No, it was God through him.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Paul is telling us here there is only one God the Father, yet you don't believe it. AND one Lord through whom we exist. We exist because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Jesus is the first fruits, the first raised form the dead! We are to follow!

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Jesus is the beginning of God's new creation. Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of the Father at his baptism. “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,” God came IN Jesus by His Spirit not AS Jesus.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.


The wages of sin is death. Forgiveness of sins can only come by the shedding of blood. God can not die, so he made the perfect sacrifice. His Son Jesus.

1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
By a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. Our future resurrection, by a man!

Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."
God appointed Jesus His son, a man. And He will judge the world through Jesus, but it will be God doing the judging. God has given us assurance by raising him from the dead! These are not my words but Gods! B.W. if you don't like that Jesus was appointed then talk to God about it. Ask for the Truth!


Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
This should be clear. By the man Adam we die, but through the obedience of one man Jesus we will be made righteous. It does not say by the obedience of God!

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
How does Jesus become a life-giving spirit? Through the resurrection and promised Spirit of the Father he received Act 2:33

Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
The forgiveness of sins comes from the Father through this man. (Jesus)

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the manChrist Jesus,
It can't get any clearer, there is one God and one mediator, the man (Jesus)

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
B.W. God is the head of Christ. Jesus is the Christ.

Salvation comes from God through Jesus His Son a man born of a virgin. Born with out sin. The perfect offering for the sins of the world. A man who went willingly because He came to do the will of the Father. A man with a human nature like you and me. Paul tells “us by this one man's obedience to the will of the Father, many will be made righteous!”
And “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,” (Phi 2:9) Because of His obedience “All authority has been given to Me (Jesus) in heaven and on earth.” (Mat 28:18, Eph 1:20-21).

That my friend is who Jesus is!

And now you know who Jesus is to me…

I wrote :
Jesus is the Son Of God.
Jesus is the Prophesied Messiah.
Jesus is our Lord and Savior.
Jesus is our brother.
Jesus is our role model.
Jesus is also our mediator with God.

Jesus is the Messiah, the king of Israel. He is the anointed one of God. God has anointed Jesus with His spirit and this is how God is with us. It is God working through Jesus. God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus. The best definition of Jesus is given by Peter in Acts 2:22 and Acts 10:38.

My theology does not take away from the glory of Jesus, the glory that He in turns gives to the Father! The source of all!


Peace,

Paul

[zoegirl]

And so if God can make one man without sin, then why the need for a savior if God can, in His justice, "save" a man from sin. Why not simply do this with all of us? But we know from scripture that "There is no one righteous" "For all have sinned" then we cannot save ourselves....no "man" is capable of being born without sin...UNLESS the man also is fully God.

[Pierac]

Zoegirl wrote:
And so if God can make one man without sin, then why the need for a savior if God can, in His justice, "save" a man from sin. Why not simply do this with all of us? But we know from scripture that "There is no one righteous" "For all have sinned" then we cannot save ourselves....no "man" is capable of being born without sin...UNLESS the man also is fully God.

This is only true if you have a human father. Jesus did not have a human father!

Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus was born to a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit. IT IS FOR THAT REASON the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Note it reads the Son of God not God the Son! Jesus a man was born with out sin. His Father is God and His Mother is Mary. The Spirit (Power) of God made Mary pregnant and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. This is not incarnation.

Holy, (e-sword word study)

(I) Pure, clean, ceremonially or morally clean, including the idea of deserved respect, reverence.
(A) It particularly means perfect, without blemish (Rom_12:1).

NASB Mat 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18 "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.
Jesus was Chosen!

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Jesus is the Son of God and God's Chosen One! A man chosen before the foundation of the world! Your theology has God saying this is Me, My chosen self. I will put my Spirit on myself.

NASB 1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.

God's sacrifice (Jesus) is perfect for His purpose. Yes, “He was foreknown before the foundation of the world” but was only “made manifest in the last times for the sake of you” (ESV version). Read it again, He was foreknown but did not exist until he was made manifest in these last times. Scripture tells us Jesus was a man. He was a Holy child, pure and with out blemish. (Act 2:22, Act 10:38, Act 17:31, 1Ti 2:5, 1Co 15:21). Not a Theos aner (Devine Man). This word is not in any of our Greek text! Any!


Peace
Paul

[B. W.]

Zoegirl wrote:
And so if God can make one man without sin, then why the need for a savior if God can, in His justice, "save" a man from sin. Why not simply do this with all of us? But we know from scripture that "There is no one righteous" "For all have sinned" then we cannot save ourselves....no "man" is capable of being born without sin...UNLESS the man also is fully God.

This is only true if you have a human father. Jesus did not have a human father!
Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus was born to a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit. IT IS FOR THAT REASON the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Note it reads the Son of God not God the Son! Jesus a man was born with out sin. His Father is God and His Mother is Mary. The Spirit (Power) of God made Mary pregnant and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. This is not incarnation.
Holy, (e-sword word study)
(I) Pure, clean, ceremonially or morally clean, including the idea of deserved respect, reverence.
(A) It particularly means perfect, without blemish (Rom_12:1).
NASB Mat 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18 "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.
Jesus was Chosen!
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Jesus is the Son of God and God's Chosen One! A man chosen before the foundation of the world! Your theology has God saying this is Me, My chosen self. I will put my Spirit on myself.
NASB 1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
God's sacrifice (Jesus) is perfect for His purpose. Yes, “He was foreknown before the foundation of the world” but was only “made manifest in the last times for the sake of you” (ESV version). Read it again, He was foreknown but did not exist until he was made manifest in these last times. Scripture tells us Jesus was a man. He was a Holy child, pure and with out blemish. (Act 2:22, Act 10:38, Act 17:31, 1Ti 2:5, 1Co 15:21). Not a Theos aner (Devine Man). This word is not in any of our Greek text! Any!
Peace..Paul

Your doctrine violates this scripture as well as makes mere mortal man a savior. I have written and used the scriptures that speak plainly about who Jesus is and his relationship with the Father. What you want is direct quotes — and I supplied these too you. You still have not answered the question regarding this passage in Isaiah as well as others.

Isaiah 45:21-24, “…Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.. 23 By Myself I have sworn, My mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of Me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' "All who have raged against Him will come to Him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.” NIV

God will not violate his word he speaks. He will do his word and prove it. Should I spell it out for you again?

Only God can save…Who then is Jesus?

Answer the question.

All the twisting of scriptures you use does not answer the question. If Jesus was only a mere mortal man — then you cannot praise Him or say he is you savior as only God is savior. God will not make any other a savior — He will not share his glory with another — He will not violate His word by not keeping it. If God made a mere mortal being a savior, granting this according to human works, then sharing God's glory with another, this is a contradiction.

Isaiah 45:21-24 Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior…

Isaiah 9:6-7, "6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this." NASB

The Zeal of the Lord will accomplish this? Hmmm? A consuming zeal for what is loved, an emotion that causes action to carry out the expression of love that is deep within the inner most being — that is Zeal — the Hebrew definition of it used here: an apt description of the second person of the Godhead.

John 3:11-21, "13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man…16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life… 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." NASB

Matthew 22:41-46, “Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42"What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, “The son of David." 43He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44 THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET'?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.” NASB

John 10:30-31, “I and the Father are one. 'They' picked up stones again to stone him.” ESV

John 8:54-59, “Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” ESV

John 3:1-21 does not line up with your doctrine? What more proof do you want?

For Jesus to be only a mere mortal anointed man that God shares his Glory and lets another other than himself be a savior violates way too many scriptures as well as the first of the Ten Commandments: see -Exodus 20:3-7

The Jesus you preach is not the Jesus of the Bible no matter how many scriptures you quote. The idea you are trying to convey in your doctrine cannot be reconciled to the passages above.

When the devil tempted Christ — the devil used scriptures too — did that make the devil right since the devil can use the scriptures too? The devil manipulated Psalms 91 in two quoted passages in such manner to deceive and Jesus countered with one. Was the devil correct because he quoted more passages than Jesus? Cultist easily manipulate scriptures and twist them. I wonder how?

Your doctrine cannot be reconciled with the bluntness of the passage in Isaiah:

Isaiah 45:21-24, “…Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By Myself I have sworn, My mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of Me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' "All who have raged against Him will come to Him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.” NIV

Nor can it be too:

Isaiah 9:6-7, "6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this." NASB

Nor can it be to John 3:1-21

Nor can it be to any of the scriptures where Jesus cites where he is from.

You preach another Jesus — not of the Bible — but of your own making - this is not truth rather something else. Exodus 20:3-7

Your doctrine violates scriptures concerning who Jesus is as well as makes a mere mortal man a savior. I have written and used the scriptures that speak plainly about who Jesus is and his relationship with the Father. What you want is direct quotes — and I supplied these too you. You still have not answered the question regarding the passages in Isaiah as well as others. God will not violate his word he speaks. He will do his word and prove it.

Only God can save…Who then is Jesus?
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[Pierac]

B.W. wrote: Your doctrine violates this scripture as well as makes mere mortal man a savior

No, it is God doing the saving and forgiving, Jesus is the sacrifice, the lamb of God. It is God saving through (Dia) Him. (i.e. because of Him) Read the scriptures.

I wrote:
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).
Look at the words… From God, reconciled, to himself, and through. God reconciled us to himself through Jesus. It does not say Jesus reconciled us but GOD! Read it again B.W. God is the one doing!

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).
Look here, Jesus has a God and Father. If He is God then how can he have a God. He can't! It says God the Father predestined us through Jesus to himself. It does not say Jesus predestined us.

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).
Once again it is God obtaining salvation through Jesus. Not Jesus obtaining through Himself.

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).
Who will Judge? God. How? Through Jesus. Once again it is God's doing not Jesus.

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).
Who has saved us? God. How? In his Son Jesus. Jesus does not save us, God does through Jesus!

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).
Again, God and Father of our Lord Jesus. So who causes us to be born again? Was it Jesus? No. It is God the Father. How? Through the resurrection of Jesus. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did Jesus raise Himself? No, it was God the Father.

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).
Here you go B.W. "To the only God our Savior, How is He our savior? Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).
Read it B.W. Jesus was a man attested by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him. Who performed the miracles and wonders and signs? Was it Jesus? No, it was God through him.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Paul is telling us here there is only one God the Father, yet you don't believe it. AND one Lord through whom we exist. We exist because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Jesus is the first fruits, the first raised form the dead! We are to follow!

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Jesus is the beginning of God's new creation. Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of the Father at his baptism. “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,” God came IN Jesus by His Spirit not AS Jesus.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.


The wages of sin is death. Forgiveness of sins can only come by the shedding of blood. God can not die, so he made the perfect sacrifice. His Son Jesus.

1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
By a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. Our future resurrection, by a man!

Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."
God appointed Jesus His son, a man. And He will judge the world through Jesus, but it will be God doing the judging. God has given us assurance by raising him from the dead! These are not my words but Gods! B.W. if you don't like that Jesus was appointed then talk to God about it. Ask for the Truth!


Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
This should be clear. By the man Adam we die, but through the obedience of one man Jesus we will be made righteous. It does not say by the obedience of God!

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
How does Jesus become a life-giving spirit? Through the resurrection and promised Spirit of the Father he received Act 2:33

Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
The forgiveness of sins comes from the Father through this man. (Jesus)

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the manChrist Jesus,
It can't get any clearer, there is one God and one mediator, the man (Jesus)

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
B.W. God is the head of Christ. Jesus is the Christ.

Salvation comes from God through Jesus His Son a man born of a virgin. Born with out sin. The perfect offering for the sins of the world. A man who went willingly because He came to do the will of the Father. A man with a human nature like you and me. Paul tells “us by this one man's obedience to the will of the Father, many will be made righteous!”
And “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,” (Phi 2:9) Because of His obedience “All authority has been given to Me (Jesus) in heaven and on earth.” (Mat 28:18, Eph 1:20-21).

That my friend is who Jesus is!

Now to your question,

B.W. wrote: You still have not answered the question regarding this passage in Isaiah as well as others.
Isaiah 45:21-24, “…Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.. 23 By Myself I have sworn, My mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of Me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' "All who have raged against Him will come to Him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.” NIV

Actually I have already answered it and your other questions too.

B.W. Asked: Only God can save…Who then is Jesus?

In fact, my past several posts to you are a direct response to this question of yours in the above quote box.


Here's my answer again to the Isaiah question. You have God speaking through Isaiah, telling the people to repent. How do they repent? By turning to God and following the old covenant by giving a sin offering. Yes, B.W. people had their sins forgiven with a sin offering. God did not incarnate into a lamb or other animal and die on the alter in the temple. The lamb was just fine as an offering as long as it was with out blemish. It was God doing the forgiving! Not the lamb on the alter. Now this is the old covenant, with the laws written in stone. The new covenant has the law written in our hearts. And Jesus is the ultimate sin offering, the Lamb of God. Jesus was not alive during the O.T. period. Paul tells us that in Hebrews 1. God has been saving and forgiving sins for thousands of years before Jesus came on the scene.

ESV Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Read it B.W. Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed. That's right, whom he appointed! Not my words but God's

ESV 1Pe 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
When was He made manifest? In the last times.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
B.W. we were foreknown too, and predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. Why? In order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Remember, Jesus is the first born from the dead, raised into a new creation. We will follow Jesus but we will not become God! We will be raised a new creation, as sons of God like our brother Jesus.

Now that I have answered your question, I would like for you to answer one for me. We both agree that there is only one God. Here's my question. It's very simple…

If Jesus is God, then how can He have a God as stated both before and after His resurrection?



Also if you have the time, could you please show the verses that I am twisting? I really would like to know. I have listed my thoughts in blue. Can you review the same verses and offer your thoughts in red or some other color? That would help, but first please answer my question.

Peace,
Paul

[Fortigurn]

It's called the law of contradiction. God /= man. Man /= God. Therefore, you cannot be God and man without violating the law of contradiction. You cannot be P and not-P simultaneously.

I'm very surprized at how you limit the Lord God almighty. With God all things are possible, right?

This is a common tactic used by trinitarians, and it is logically incoherent. I am not limiting the Lord God almighty when I point out that your interpretation of a text results in a logical contradiction. That's as bad as the Mormons accusing me of limiting the Lord God almighty because I don't believe God is 'progressing' in the sense of learning, developing His character, and gradually advancing to a higher stage.

Yes, 'with God all things are possible', but that passage does not mean 'God can do literally anything'. We are told in the Scriptures that God cannot lie. We also know God cannot die. God cannot fail to keep His promises. God cannot deny Himself. Claiming 'God can do anything' is no defence of an exposition which results in a logical contradiction. The fact is that in the Bible God /= man, and man /= God. This distinction is maintained all the way through the Bible (unless you're a Mormon). This means that within the very context of the Bible, claiming God can = man, and that man can = God is going against what the Bible actually says.

[Fortigurn]

You and Fortigurn can throw every verse you want at us about Jesus being a man. We all believe He was man. Fully man. 100% man.

Actually you don't, you believe he was God. You believe he was God who put on a 'man suit' and pretended to be a man. But of course even this is missing the point - the point being that when the apostles preached about Jesus, they always and only preached that he was a man authorized by God. They never preached that Jesus is God, or 'the God-man'.

As I have pointed out, if I say that Jesus is a man, trinitarians violently disagree with me. They insist he is 'the God-man'. That proves beyond all shadow of doubt that they don't believe Jesus is a man.

Your next statement makes it clear that you don't believe that Jesus was a man like us:

We just don't believe that He was a man with a sinful nature like you and I have.

Compare this with Scripture:

Hebrews 2:
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, [Greek 'took part of the same'] so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.
16 For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham's descendants.
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement30 for the sins of the people.

It could hardly be clearer.

As the Son of God, born not in Adam's image but in God's, He is 100% divine. Contrary to Fortrigurn's "logic", there is nothing contradictory in that statement. He's simply improperly defined "God" and "Man."

How did I improperly define the two terms? The fact is that God /= man, and man/= God. Therefore my argument stands. The apostles likewise distinguished between God and man as two distinct categories, not different terms referring to the same category.

[Fortigurn]

Well stated Fortigurn, your faith is indeed in man and not in God who alone saves.

Not only is that completely untrue, it's also simply polemic.

Only God saves then who is Jesus?

I have already answered this. Jesus is the man sent by God, the man approved by God, the man authorized by God, the man who is the mediator between God and men, the agent through which God saves.

In his speech to the Jews on the day of Pentecost, the apostle Peter tells them that Jesus is a man attested by God:

Acts 2:
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know—
23 this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles.

The apostle Peter taught that Jesus is a man, not God, or even a God, or even on the same level as God. Three thousand people were baptized into Christ that day, with the understanding that he was a man. True Christians therefore are baptized with the belief that Jesus is a man.

Note also that Peter distinguishes Christ from God, and says that Christ was a man through whom God worked, not that he was God who became man.

In his speech to the people after he had healed the lame mand, the apostle Peter tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy given by Moses, that God would send them a Messiah who was a man like them:

Acts 3:
22 Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must obey him in everything he tells you.
23 Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people.'

Note that Peter tells the crowd that Jesus was a prophet like Moses, from among their brothers. He does not tell them that Jesus is God, or that he came down from heaven.

In his speech to a law court, the apostle Stephen likewise tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy given by Moses, that God would send them a Messiah who was a man like them:

Acts 7:
37 This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, 'God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers.

He uses the same quote as the apostle Peter had used, telling them that the prophet God would send (the Messiah), would be 'of your brethren, like unto me' - in other words, a man, a human being.

When he was in Athens, the apostle Paul was speaking to some people about who Jesus was. In his speech, he told them clearly that Jesus was a man who received authority from God:

Acts 17:
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Here Paul says that Jesus is a man appointed by God to judge the world. Paul does not preach that Christ is God. He preaches that Christ is a man authorised by God, a man whom God has appointed.

In his first letter to Timothy, the apostle Paul says that there is one God, and that there is one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ, who he says is a man:

1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God's purpose at his appointed time.

Here we have God on one side, and humans on the other. In between we have Christ - a man, not God.

It couldn't be any clearer. The apostles all taught time and time and time again that Jesus was a man at his birth, and was still a man after his resurrection and going to the Father.

Is Jesus is described as an agent of God? Is he described as sent by God? Is God described as doing things in, by, or through Christ, the language of agency?

The apostles taught explicitly that Christ is the agent by which God saves and judges (in, by, through):

* Acts 10:42, 'he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead'

* Acts 17:32, 'he [God] has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated'

* Romans 6:23 'the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus'

* Titus 3:5-6 'renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He [God] poured out on us in full measure in Jesus Christ our Savior'

* Galatians 3:15 'in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles'

* Hebrews 13:20-21 'God... working in us what is pleasing before him through Jesus Christ')

* Hebrews 10:10 'we have been made holy ['sanctified'] through the offering of the body of Jesus'

An agent is subordinate to the one for whom he acts, and by whom he is sent. We find this subordination described clearly by Scripture:

* John 14:28 'My Father is greater than I'

* Acts 3:13, 'his [God's] servant Jesus'

* Acts 3:26, 'God raised up his servant'

* Acts 4:27, 30 'your [God's] holy servant Jesus'

* Acts 4:30 'your [God's] holy servant Jesus'

An agent receives power and authority from one who is greater than he:

* Matthew 9:6, 'When the crowd saw this, [Jesus healing] they were afraid and honored God who had given such authority to men'

* Matthew 28:18, 'Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me"'

* John 5:19, 'the Son can do nothing from himself'

* John 5:22, '[God] has assigned all judgment to the Son'

* John 5:26, 'For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he has granted the Son to have life in himself'

* John 5:27, 'he [God] has granted the Son authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man'

* John 5:30, 'I can do nothing of myself'

* John 17:2, 'you [God] have given him authority over all humanity'

* Acts 10:42, 'he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead'

* Acts 17:32, 'he [God] has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated'

It couldn't be clearer. Note the repeated distinction made between God and Jesus.

But answer — who is the Jesus you believe in? Why did he go to the cross? Stick with what you believe in and state it plainly.

I have stated this very plainly more than once, but you never read what I write. See above.

[Fortigurn]

Yes, Jesus died, He fulfilled the payment for sin....

Where does the Bible say that Jesus 'fulfilled the payment for sin'?

But when we say God died (and yes this is mysterious)...

That's not mysterious, that's just wrong. God can't die, He's immortal. Unless you believe in a mortal God.

[Fortigurn]

Now learn something here, Jesus never forgave sins before He was anointed with God's Spirit.

So what? Even if you could prove that It doesn't make Him any less God... Just as Jesus being an obedient servant to God the Father, and operating in God's timetable, doesn't make Him any less God.

It isn't a matter of timing, it's a matter of Jesus being given authority to forgive sins. He couldn't be given something he already had. Jesus was given authority to forgive sins, by God.

[zoegirl]

Ironically, you used the verse in Hebrews that actually shows this

Hebrews 2:
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, [Greek 'took part of the same'] so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.
16 For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham's descendants.
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement30 for the sins of the people.

In what way is this hard to understand fromm this that Jesus died the death that is meant for us....it even says that He is an atonement for the sins of the people? Your own verse that you used says this....He died that He could destroy death for us. He was the sacrificial lamb, the spotless lamb that was required. Jesus was tempted, and could be tempted in the same ways (again in your verse sharing our humanity), but did not sin. He lived a perfect life, a sinless life and yet He can understand our trials and temptations because He was 100% man....and yet He was also 100% God. Fully Man...FUlly God. Mysterious...sure, hard to resolve mentally, sure. But we will go back and forth and around and around because you and peirac do not agree with us as to the meanings of scripture, even though both Jac and BW have done a great job of going through them, both in language and culture.

[Fortigurn]

Ironically, you used the verse in Hebrews that actually shows this

That passsage says nothing about Jesus' death being a 'payment for sin'.

In what way is this hard to understand fromm this that Jesus died the death that is meant for us....

Firstly because it doesn't say that. Secondly, because we still die. Thirdly, because if the death meant for us was a permanent death, then it hasn't been paid, because Jesus was raised.

it even says that He is an atonement for the sins of the people?

I know it does, but it doesn't say 'a payment for the sins of the people'. The Biblical atonement is a 'covering', not a 'payment'.

Your own verse that you used says this....He died that He could destroy death for us. He was the sacrificial lamb, the spotless lamb that was required.

There's nothing here which I disagree with. But of course right now you're not saying that Jesus died as a payment for our sin.

Jesus was tempted, and could be tempted in the same ways (again in your verse sharing our humanity), but did not sin. He lived a perfect life, a sinless life and yet He can understand our trials and temptations because He was 100% man....

I agree entirely. That is what the Bible says.

and yet He was also 100% God. Fully Man...FUlly God.

Ah, well the Bible doesn't say that. Did you note that this passage in Hebrews says that he was able to save us because he was 100% man? Yet you want to tell me that he was able to save us because he was 100% man and 100% God (a logical contradiction). It's very easy to see when people are adding to what the Bible says.

Mysterious...sure, hard to resolve mentally, sure.

No, just plain wrong. It's a logical contradiction. You wouldn't accept this kind of reasoning from a Mormon, so why accept it from your priests, pastors, or whoever taught you this?

But we will go back and forth and around and around because you and peirac do not agree with us as to the meanings of scripture, even though both Jac and BW have done a great job of going through them, both in language and culture.

No, the real problem is that you're prepared to accept a logical contradiction, a flawed syllogism which commits the fallacy of the undistributed middle and violates the law of contradiction, all because you choose to believe in a doctrine the apostles never taught.

I quote a passage which says that Christ was able to save us because he was exactly the same as us, and you immediately add to it saying that he was able to save us because he was exactly the same as us but was also God. I provide an entire list of passages in which the apostles preached Jesus is a man, and distinguish him from God, and you then turn around and tell me they only told us half the story.

That's the problem here.

[Pierac]

By reading this verse it is plainly clear that the person who is being anointed is not YHWH. YHWH is anointing this individual. Now watch how Jesus uses this verse to refer to himself. Jesus uses this verse to say that he is the one that the Scripture spoke about. That he is the one whom YHWH has anointed. Who is YHWH by the way? That's right, the ONLY God.

Luke 4:18-21 — "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,'…He (Jesus) said to them, 'Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."
Okay now, this is simple. Look at Isaiah 61:1, YHWH anoints someone other than YHWH. Jesus in Luke claims that he is that person whom YHWH has anointed. Next.
1 Cor. 8:6 — "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord (This Lord is not a translation of YHWH, it is kyrios i.e. master, king etc.) Jesus Christ."

It doesn't get any easier than this. Who is the one God? The FATHER! That's it, period! The Father is the only one who is considered God. Jesus is our Lord (master, king). You will always see that the only one who is referred to as God is the Father. From the passage above, do you honestly read that and come away with the fact that Jesus is the one God? It is obvious that the one Lord is not the one God. Only the Father is God. It never says, "Peace from God the Father and God the Son." Why not? Didn't the Apostles know that the Son is God? Not even close! Look at the following:

1 Cor. 1:3 — "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Cor. 1:2 — "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

So who is the ONLY one who is referred to as God? That's right, the Father. There is no way that in these sentences you can come out with the idea that Jesus is God. They always say, "peace from God AND, I repeat, AND the Lord Jesus Christ." They are separate individuals. Jesus Christ is not considered by any stretch of the imagination, "God" by these authors. If I said,

"Peace from John our president and the chief of staff Mike."
"Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (for comparison)

Is there anyway that you would read the verse above and come away thinking that Mike, the chief of staff is the president? No way! But wait.

In these next verses, Jesus, who Trinitarians claim is fully God at ALL times, has a God. How can this be? These must all be typos.
1 Peter 1:3 — "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

How can God have a God? He can't. That's why when I ask this question to pastors the only answer they can give me is that it's a mystery. Do you know how naí¯ve and gullible that sounds?

These verses above are not profound theological statements. They are for the most part just greetings. No one has ever disputed these verses. Just read them! Then read them again!

The Messiah is supposed to have a God because he needs to be anointed by God in order to do wonders and signs on behalf of God. Let's look at Micah 5:3 which is a Messianic prophecy:

Micah 5:3 — "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

The Christ will have a God? Yes! Who will it be? Look at the verse above, YHWH. Does Jesus know that he is supposed to have a God? Of course he knows! Look below, these verses are all Jesus speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."
Revelation 3:2 - "For I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

So Jesus did know that he has a God? Yes, indeed! Jesus needed his God in order to resurrect.

Hebrews 13:20 — "May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant."

Acts 5:30 — "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Who raised the great shepherd from the dead? The God of peace, the God of our ancestors (which we covered earlier). The Trinitarian alternative is that God raised himself from the dead. But how can God raise himself if he is dead. Then God was not really dead. For that matter, how can you kill God?
Do you honestly read that verse and think that the great shepherd is God? Remember Micah? The shepherd has a God called YHWH.
Micah 5:3 — "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

By the way, what happened to the Holy Spirit in all these greetings? I guess he must have been the least favorite of the Apostles because he's not mentioned even once in those verses. I wonder why? It's because the Holy Spirit has always been considered to be the presence and power of God, i.e. the mind of God. Psalm 139: 7 states:

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?"

Like I already posted :
When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father.

I hope this clears up your understanding of my beliefs.

Peace,

Paul

[YLTYLT]

It seems quite simple to me:

When scripture calls Jesus: Jesus Christ, Christ is his title. Christ means Messiah or Saviour.

And as B.W. has clearly, and repeatedly pointed out from the old testament that only God can be the Savior.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

We could not call Jesus, Christ if he was not God....
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Jesus Himself claims to be the one that stood before Moses at the burning bush, when he says "before Abraham was, I AM"

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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And in John 10:33, the jews even believed that he claimed to be God.

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Now you might says that Jesus tries to explain it away in verse by saying

10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

But this did not matter The Jews listening to this. They still thought that he was claiming to be God. Which he of course he was...
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Now any one of these arguements by themselves might possibly be explained away with the arguemets you have been professing. But when you take all these things into consideration as well as the numerous verses provided by B.W. and Jac, I do not see how anyone can come to any other conclusion that there is a Trinity. And that the references to the "angel of the Lord" in the OT are the preincarnate Jesus.

Now man's view of the Trinity cannot be defined in terms that man has the capability to imagine. But just logically thinkng, If God is eternal, and God is love, then there must be something else that has eternally existed for God to Love. Or Can love exist without an object of love? I believe this object is the Son.

The Son also eternally exists as a perfect image of the Father. The Holy Spirit also eternally exists as a manifestation of the perfect love from the Father to the Son and the Son's perfect love from the Son to the Father. They each subsist (or must necessarily exist) because of the others. This is one entity that cannot be separated, consisting of three persons. Scripture teaches that each has an intellect, emotion, and volition:

Here are just a few verses about each (forgive me if I do not write them out but my computer is about to reboot)
* Mind (i.e., intellect )
Father: - Lev 24:12,
Son: - Phil 2:5,
HS: I Cor 2:11 and Rom 8:27

* Heart (i.e., emotion )
Father: Heb 11:6,
Son: Jn 11:35
HS: Eph 4:30

* Will (i.e., volition)
FAther: Jn 4:23, Mt 7:21
Son: Mt 26:39
HS: I Cor 12:11 and Heb 9:14