Another theory on reality + this world, free will etc

[FFC]

Looked at it, didnt have time to rad all of it. Oh that kinda surpiresed me badly... koz i thought Kabbalah is acceptable with a religion. How then it leads peoole to God if it says it is againt prayers? all "gods" i think want prayers, so how does it lead one to God? And does it lead to any god - is it universal for any god people believe in?
However there were some things that I liked as a christian (as much as i am one! ) about the pain, egoism as a driving force for evil in the world, some thing on free will etc.

But i dont want to submit to its theories and so if it will lead me away from christianity. or can these 2 co-operate? i would be happy if yes. So i think i will have to find something else as explanation/theory if this isnt what my religion teaches...

The Kabbalah is more of Eastern Orthodox JEWISH tradition. I would say all you need in your life is the Bible. The Kabbalah will cause confusion... Just my thoughts.

I agree with Bizzt. However I would say all you need in your life is Christ (I know what you are saying though, Bizzt). He is your all in all and in him all things consist. You don't need any add-ons to your relationship with God.

[madscientist]

The Kabbalah is more of Eastern Orthodox JEWISH tradition. I would say all you need in your life is the Bible. The Kabbalah will cause confusion... Just my thoughts.

Yea Jewish... i agree the Bible but it would be good if some of it were explained - I mean, Bible is definitely not a type of book which we read and throw away; it is something to explore etc. And explanation is needed definitely.
OK, ill try to keep away from kabbalah from now on... But it did have some nice theories though...

BTW what exactly does Jewish religion teach? All i know it is an old religion and dont accept Jesus. Any other differences?

[bizzt]

Looked at it, didnt have time to rad all of it. Oh that kinda surpiresed me badly... koz i thought Kabbalah is acceptable with a religion. How then it leads peoole to God if it says it is againt prayers? all "gods" i think want prayers, so how does it lead one to God? And does it lead to any god - is it universal for any god people believe in?
However there were some things that I liked as a christian (as much as i am one! ) about the pain, egoism as a driving force for evil in the world, some thing on free will etc.

But i dont want to submit to its theories and so if it will lead me away from christianity. or can these 2 co-operate? i would be happy if yes. So i think i will have to find something else as explanation/theory if this isnt what my religion teaches...

The Kabbalah is more of Eastern Orthodox JEWISH tradition. I would say all you need in your life is the Bible. The Kabbalah will cause confusion... Just my thoughts.

I agree with Bizzt. However I would say all you need in your life is Christ (I know what you are saying though, Bizzt). He is your all in all and in him all things consist. You don't need any add-ons to your relationship with God.

Actually you and I said the same thing FFC. The Bible is the Word. and According to
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. But I am with you on that one

[madscientist]

Actually you and I said the same thing FFC. The Bible is the Word. and According to
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. But I am with you on that one

So the reference to the "Word" is it the Bible or God himself? I think i heard some ppl say that the Word is God himself. Is it the whole Bible or the word "Word" was meant to mean God only as a Word, something abstract? I think i heard soem ppl explain or understand it in that way.

[bizzt]

Actually you and I said the same thing FFC. The Bible is the Word. and According to
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. But I am with you on that one

So the reference to the "Word" is it the Bible or God himself? I think i heard some ppl say that the Word is God himself. Is it the whole Bible or the word "Word" was meant to mean God only as a Word, something abstract? I think i heard soem ppl explain or understand it in that way.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Well the Word was with God and the Word was God... So I believe this is a reference to Jesus in the Trinity. As you can see if you read further all things were made by him and without him not anything made was made. He was the Life and that Life was the light of men.

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:1 and 1:14 says it all about Jesus.

Edit: So who do you think the Word is?

[madscientist]

OK so i get it now!! the Word is Jesus, no-one else.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And what about this? Arent all people born "from the will of God"? Are we meant to take it literally? If we arent born from His will - do we know it or not? This kinda confuses me. If God loves ALL His people, doesnt He want all of us to get saved - so arent all born out of His will?? How are we meant to understand this passage?

[bizzt]

OK so i get it now!! the Word is Jesus, no-one else.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And what about this? Arent all people born "from the will of God"? Are we meant to take it literally? If we arent born from His will - do we know it or not? This kinda confuses me. If God loves ALL His people, doesnt He want all of us to get saved - so arent all born out of His will?? How are we meant to understand this passage?

From what I understand is that those who are "born again" are Born "of God". It actually does not talk about the "Will of God" but it talks about "of God". If you are saved therefore you are of God and were given the power to become sons of God and they (you) were born not of Blood or the will of the flesh or Man, but of God.

I hope that clears it up?

[madscientist]

From what I understand is that those who are "born again" are Born "of God". It actually does not talk about the "Will of God" but it talks about "of God". If you are saved therefore you are of God and were given the power to become sons of God and they (you) were born not of Blood or the will of the flesh or Man, but of God.

I hope that clears it up?

Aha!! nevere thought of that. Interpretation!! Ya... but why only some are called by God? - I mean, why only some have the chance to know Jesus, and others do not? - eg those in other religions, unbelievers etc. It's up to God but do all people get an [equal] chance to get to know and accept JC?
Dont think all get it equal though. Some are called and answer and some do not... their will or God's will?

[bizzt]

From what I understand is that those who are "born again" are Born "of God". It actually does not talk about the "Will of God" but it talks about "of God". If you are saved therefore you are of God and were given the power to become sons of God and they (you) were born not of Blood or the will of the flesh or Man, but of God.

I hope that clears it up?

Aha!! nevere thought of that. Interpretation!! Ya... but why only some are called by God? - I mean, why only some have the chance to know Jesus, and others do not? - eg those in other religions, unbelievers etc. It's up to God but do all people get an [equal] chance to get to know and accept JC?
Dont think all get it equal though. Some are called and answer and some do not... their will or God's will?

I sometimes get confused about this as well... I believe that everyone is called but few answer. Equal chance is based upon our perception. A drug addict with unloving parents etc... do they get an equal chance compared to a person brought up in a Loving home, that goes to Church Regularly?
Isa 65:12
Isa 66:4

[pentebaptadvent]

From what I understand is that those who are "born again" are Born "of God". It actually does not talk about the "Will of God" but it talks about "of God". If you are saved therefore you are of God and were given the power to become sons of God and they (you) were born not of Blood or the will of the flesh or Man, but of God.

I hope that clears it up?

Aha!! nevere thought of that. Interpretation!! Ya... but why only some are called by God? - I mean, why only some have the chance to know Jesus, and others do not? - eg those in other religions, unbelievers etc. It's up to God but do all people get an [equal] chance to get to know and accept JC?
Dont think all get it equal though. Some are called and answer and some do not... their will or God's will?

I sometimes get confused about this as well... I believe that everyone is called but few answer. Equal chance is based upon our perception. A drug addict with unloving parents etc... do they get an equal chance compared to a person brought up in a Loving home, that goes to Church Regularly?
Isa 65:12
Isa 66:4

I believe everyone gets an equal chance. Think of it this: Satan knows Christ died on the cross for creation but we're told he won't be sitting with us at the Lamb's supper table.
So merely the knowledge of Christ's death and what it did is obviously not the key to getting saved. I believe that there is something spiritual which occurs at salvation....which might even mean that mentally impaired people, children who die from a young age and people in remote lands who have never heard the gospel may well have the same chance that someone who grows up in a Christian country or home has.
How many times have you heard pastors say that mentally retarded people are not subject to the same law? I'm sure at some level they know the difference between right and wrong.
And then if someone dies at a young age, that is swept under the carpet by claiming that there's an "age of accountability" which directly defies the fact that we are born into sin...All of us. God is no respecter of persons or of a person's circumstances.

Now I believe that God is fair, so there's got to be a better answer. If the cards are stacked against someone (their life's circumstances), salvation must be set up to where they have an equal chance as the rest of us. Saying anything else actually implies that the people were predestined for hell or at least a little more predestined than the rest of us (something we know is not true) because they were born in a less-than-ideal situation.

You see, if you were to say that 90% of the people who are raised in buddhist, islamic, etc. countries are going to hell simply because most of them are going to stick with the religion they were raised with, then you are implying that they were in some way predestined not to be saved because they were indoctrinated with (insert their country's religion here) all of their lives. Perhaps their parents even told them that they are going to hell if they stray from their religion!

God would not set someone up where it was so difficult for them to get saved and then say "let the cards fall where they may". I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

Christ had to die to save us, there's no way around that. However, the knowledge is not what saves us....receiving the holy spirit into our souls is what saves us. Christ made it possible.
You don't know have to know what's under the hood of a vehicle to know that a car will generally get you from point A to B.
Our spirit has knowledge of Who God is, I'm quite convinced. Acceptance or rejection of the Holy Spirit takes place at that level and I personally believe that that has nothing to do with what a person is raised with and taught or where they live.
Anyone can be brainwashed to believe just about anything...given enough torture, sleep-deprivation and drugs or from an early enough age. Salvation is much more than accepting a belief or a truth, it is accepting a spiritual relationship with God and I don't believe that it is dependent upon our minds but rather upon our heart, our soul.

There may be as many baptists in hell as muslims. I know that sounds shockingly horrible but remember God is no respecter of persons. When it comes to God, that is a personal choice that every individual must make and I don't believe has anything to do whether one's father is a preacher or an Imam or an atheist.

It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with spreading the gospel, Christ instructed the church to do that. It also doesn't mean that it is wrong to talk about Jesus or the Holy Spirit. It's important to keep that consciously in one's mind to stay disciplined.

The whole thing is my theory, I admit. But without implying a little predestination or implying that God really is a respecter of persons (i.e. people born in christian countries would have more exposure to the gospel and therefore, a greater chance than someone else), this is the only thing I can see that levels the playing field for us all.

[madscientist]

Welcome to the forum pentebaptadvent! So cool to see someone with the exact same opinions! I also though the same things, exactly pretty much - i can so imagine writing the post u did myself!!
Yes i did until... i was told that it isnt so. Well God is and isnt fair. Is that yea He's perfect; isnt that He lets sinners be saved (if they accept JC; ok, fine He is fair). And with the religions - yes agree that the fact that you do what the religion you had known for always tells you to do you will then why should it be bad? Yea... philosophy!
But i heard and even in this forum read that "Jesus is the only way into salvation" and that "only He can save us". I also thought that if you do what your conscience tells you and lets say believed in muslim religion but loved people and Alah then you of course shouldnt end up in hell.
As for the choice - whether it is really equal only God knows. There are some people however i think that have been predestined to be in heaven or (hell? satan, for example) - however God is perfect and we should trust Him that He does it in the best way possible.
God bless

[pentebaptadvent]

Nice to be here. Are you a physics fan?
My belief does not skip Christ's death, only whether knowledge of it is what saves. The demons know who Christ is and tremble.
I do not believe in predestination. People from the old testament did not know that when they were sacrificing animals, that it was a representation of Christ. They knew they'd one day have a messiah but probably did not know there would be a blood sacrifice of him (of God).
Yet are we to believe all those old testament people went to hell because they did not have the exact knowledge that we did?
I don't believe all people are going to heaven, no matter what church they go to or what religion they belong to, it's a personal decision of whether one wants to spend eternity in the presence of God or not.

Unless a person is catholic, they supposedly do not believe in predestination. I think that's one reason the rest of us are called "protestant". If we are predestined, then free will is a joke.

[FFC]

If we are predestined, then free will is a joke.

I'm not so sure about that. Although I lean towards believing what you are putting forth, I can also readily admit that the bible seems to put forth a pretty good argument for predestination as well as free will.

Whether God in his soveriegnty is in complete control in all aspects of our salvation, or He allows us to be a part of it via our choice to believe, I don't know. All I do know is that He can do nothing except what His charactor dictates, and He can do anything He wants to do whether we like it or not.

[madscientist]

Nice to be here. Are you a physics fan?

Hmm many people think so! Are you? no well i like science in general. but that doesn mean i want it to deter me from my faith! and i also started to enjoy some philosophy and discussions like this in the past years. But sciences definitely is something i have in my brain. but not to an extreme extent; someone made me that name so dont take it too seriously!!

protestants dont believe in predestination? hmm... wel didnt know that. so thats a main difference, i see..
But how do we explain that no 2 people have the same lives or the same surroundings/possibilities/chances. not everyone has the same abilities, characteristics etc. And we cant choose our genes, in the first place - which set the abilities for our free will and types of decisions as well. its all brain chemistry and psychology and that. yes we're conscious.
and yes its not knowledge that saves but rather acceptance and changing our lives... eh actually God's grace, not our works. another never-ending debate!! Never understood - OK God saves us - but dont we get to choose and WORK to try and get rid of our sins, temptations? it requires us to want and fall away from temptation and follow Christ. If it is 0% to us - then we cant be held accountable for anything, can we? So if we accept Christ then it means it is us who gotta make the choice. But in the first place, God must allow us to be able to do so. - my opinion at least...

Whether God in his soveriegnty is in complete control in all aspects of our salvation, or He allows us to be a part of it via our choice to believe, I don't know. All I do know is that He can do nothing except what His charactor dictates, and He can do anything He wants to do whether we like it or not.

OK the never-ending debate! however could we be righteously blamed for not having accepted Christ or been like that or that? if we were predestined to not be saved, or were - we have no control over it. if we dont, then we cant be blamed for having done anything wrong. we must have some part in it. but bible says different. so truth is somewhere in between.

[moshiya]

dear friends,

perhaps you could answer my question,
how do you recognize truth?

should you not first need to know it before you can recognize?
and who or what is judging it?
if you do not know truth but are looking for it, then what criteria
is used to accept or reject?
and if it is a personalized idea that seeks to find conformation.