Fortigurn wrote: I agree with all that. I've made this point very clearly myself. The Bible says all things were created by one person, the Father.
Yet God said - let Us make... in Gen 1:26 and 3:22...has become one of Us...
He was not speaking to a Heavenly host ,nor angels, nor even an angel as an angel is not God and God is not an angel and cannot be classed as an 'Us' with God. What does the Bible declare? - "
I alone are God and there are no others,"
Isaiah 45:5-6 declare! The text and ancient Hebrew is clear on this point.
B. W. wrote:God alone made heaven and earth all the universe and man: there was no high heavenly courtly host helping God out.
Fortigurn wrote:I agree. I've already said this. It seems you're not reading what I write.
You agree? and then write this below in response to my comment?:
B. W. wrote:There was no heavenly court or angels with him.
and you said, "Proof please."
Then why did you quote these in your exposé trying to prove the 'Us' in Genesis are angelic beings or a host?
1 Kings 22:19-22, Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6,Isaiah, 6:1-8, as sources for your doctrine if you really agree? I do read what you write but you do not understand what I write.
B. W. wrote:God the Father spoke to Son and Holy Spirit in the beginning and only He created man.
Fortigurn wrote:I believe that only the Father created man, but you haven't provided any evidence that the Father spoke to the Holy Spirit and the son.
B. W. wrote:There was no heavenly court or angels with him.
Fortigurn wrote:Proof please.
You still believe a heavenly host or some other creature was with God when he created the heavens and earth as well as man? That God was speaking to someone other than himself when he alone formed man? I bet you speak to yourself, yet, God cannot?
The context of the Genesis account itself refutes this ideology without taking any rabbit trials through 1 Kings, Job 1,2, and Isaiah 6 and bible as well as men's opinions which your doctrine takes in vain attempt to prove God had a heavenly court nearby, or at least friendly cherubim or seraphim nearby to confer with to explain away the 'Us' and 'Our' of Genesis.
The ways your doctrine presents its case reminds me of how the old TV show of Monty Python used to depict God on his heavenly throne: A host of cartoon characters in the form of infantile cherubim along side a medieval clad angelic host blowing trumpets announcing God is now entering the scene. There then God appears in the form of a human king sitting on a royal throne carrying a regal scepter. This heavenly host surrounds the throne all the while blowing trumpets, shouting, while cherubim shoot little arrows — then the Sun, moon and stars start doing jumping jacks.
The bible does not back up your doctrine — it refutes it in
Genesis 1:2, “
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering [brooding] over the face of the waters…” ESV
The Hebrew word translated
hovering-brooding depicts isolation, like a lone Eagle soaring above, alone: It is written in
Jeremiah 32:17.”
'Ah, Lord GOD! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you…”ESV
Only God created and none else and Jesus and the Father are One just as Jesus said. Does your doctrine understand the metaphor for God's arm? From what you write - I think not.
Acts17:24-25, "
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;” NASB
God needs no one else to be an 'Us' in the Genesis account — the scriptures are extremely clear on this account as “He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things.”
The Lord was alone moving, hovering — brooding - over the face of the waters in silent contemplation, getting ready to implement his plans and purposes. This is what the force of the ancient Hebrew textual language pictures — not a Monty Python throng, not a weak God needing an friendly angel to confer with! Next, God then spoke and the rest is history recorded in Genesis.
God was not speaking to any other when referring to the 'Us' - 'Our' in Genesis, other than Himself, as He is,
revealing something about His Divinity. Yet you cannot see this as you do not have the Spirit of God in you and are not his or you would hear his word and understand it. The bible tells us to confront error, and defend the faith, and expose darkness, shout warnings from the house tops so that we may save a soul from death. You take my sharp retorts as insults, but they are not intended as insults.
Further, The doctrine you espouse reminds me of
this really silly analogy: The English language uses the numeral 1 to mean 1 item or thing. Also, the English language spells out the numeral 1 phonetically as One. There is the numeral 1 and you pronounce it One. One is made from three letters yet it is still means one. Three make one but each letter is only one letter. The English word for God also uses three letters.
Your doctrine only sees the numeral 1 and not what makes 1 a One. Your Doctrine should therefore spell
One as
O and leave out the rest of the letters.
Silly metaphor isn't it? Yet, is this not what you are doing? 1 God? You are neglecting to see him as he chooses to reveal himself. As each individual letter used to spell the English word — One - has its own uses, form, attributes, and pronunciations. Likewise, so does One God: the undivided trinity — Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
This you refuse to see and only stare blindly at a single number 1 but not how God reveals him himself — in essence you miss the spelling of his many names. Do you really know why the doctrine of the Trinity was written and what its purpose was and still is? I do not think you do.
The entire text of the Genesis account refutes your claims.
God formed —
God placed —
God said let us make man in our image and likeness. He was not talking to angelic host but to Himself as He is, and here, in the beginning, a picture emerges about God —
He is like no other!
1 Corinthians 2: 10-16, “
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? ”But we have the mind of Christ.” NKJV
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