More Trinity stuff

[B. W.]

The below has nothing to do with Fortigrun or Pierac directly but serves as an attempt to get us back on track as well as explore the ancient Hebrew language as a language of pictures. In doing so, you'll Read much about Jesus and his preexistence. I hope to soon write a brief summery on what the Messiah as servant means and its symbolism and from this you'll discover the many things from the Lord. I post many Links — read slow — use links and your browser's back arrow to get back to this thread. Take your time...

Text: Isaiah 33:22, “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.” ESV

This is an interesting passage of scripture as it states Yehôvâh is our judge; Yehôvâh is our lawgiver; Yehôvâh is our king and it is He alone that will save. I know there are those that will try to twist the text somehow by claiming that the 'He' mentioned in the text somehow refers to an exalted mortal agent of God and not to God himself or that Yehovah also refers to an exalted mortal agent and not in reference to God at all. Such translation does violence to the grammar of this text. Note that in Genesis 12:4 Yehôvâh spoke to Abram and in Genesis 2:7 Yehôvâh Elohim made man. Conclusion - Yehôvâh has been around a long time and Yehôvâh is not a title describing man's lordship.

The ancient Hebrew language used in the bible is a wholistic language and not primarily a pragmatic scholastic language. It looks for the whole part and paints a picture within the mind of the whole. It usages of words express a picturesque icon within the mind. It is a language that engages thought to begin exploring the mystery of the meaning of scripture text by connecting contextual themes. By doing so, the reader and hearer explore the richness of where the word of God leads, by his Spirit, not man's.

For example, in Isaiah 33:22 the word 'he' is personal pronoun that is connected to the Lord. The words 'saves us' is in the Hiphil Imperfect tense with a Pronomial Suffix 'us' attached which is view as part of a whole event or action, situation and in this case is connected to the words He and Lord of verse 22.

This simply put, indicates plainly that the 'he' mentioned in this verse is the LORD GOD our judge; the LORD GOD our lawgiver; the LORD GOD our king and the word translated Lord is the one translated Yehôvâh - meaning God himself — not a mortal agent! The language is holistic here and is to be read so. I will add some arrows and brackets to show how this holistic reading works:

Isaiah 33:22, “For [the LORD] is [our judge]; the[LORD] is [our lawgiver]; the [LORD] is [our king]; he [will save us].”

Or you can say it this way: “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he [The Lord] will save us — [The Lord our judge; the LORD our lawgiver; the LORD our king].”

The grammar of the text point to the Lord and no one else: Even the word King used in verse is all-inclusive leading to the identity of who the King is mentioned in Isaiah 33:17 as the LORD our king.

In fact Isaiah 33:10-24 is so packed with information concerning who the Messiah is that it will pay to explore it more closely. Please use the scripture links for a demonstration of how God speaks though the scriptures in contextual form of holistic thought which ultimately unveils the Messiah. Yes, the word of God will lead to scriptures I have not even linked, that is — if you are his and can hear as Jesus described in John chapter eight verse Forty Seven.

Isaiah 33:10, "Now I will arise," says the LORD, "now I will lift myself up; now I will be exalted.” ESV - Let us look at this verse's three distinct statements in more detail:

“Now I will arise:” Psalms 82:8:The Lord will arise and then Judge! How? — he will come as a servant — the Messiah: see Isaiah 11:1-12 Now how? Isaiah 9:6, Luke 2:11 and see Luke 2:42-52 The servant came but not how men would think. Isaiah 60:1-2, see verse 16, Luke 4:16-44 Don't get excited Fortigrun the people turned on him — why if the servant was only mortal like a prophet as they were believing and seemed desirous for him to perform for them? Jesus was telling them that he will do greater works than the mortal agents did before. Jesus was stating in essences to them that he was the Messiah — not just only a mortal man but rather - God and man because only God can do greater works - as there is no violation of scriptures in this — God's doing. You do not understand Messiah as servant.

Next, look at next section of Isaiah 33:10:“Now I will lift myself up” John 3:13-15 Jesus came down from Heaven implies preexistence. This is only one verse out of many highlighting this fact. Ephesians 1:20 Who raised Jesus from the dead? Romans 10:9 How did God lift Himself up if Himself was not Himself?

Next part: “Now I will be exalted”
Philippians 2:5-9 God took on the form of a servant, which explains much of Jesus' actions and words. Isaiah 52:10-15 The Messiah and the cross — note Isaiah 53 comes next. Isaiah 43:10-11 The bible states clearly that only God can save. God will be exalted during the end of days, just as the context leads:

Isaiah 33:10-13, “10 now I will arise," says the LORD, "now I will lift myself up; now I will be exalted. 11You conceive chaff; you give birth to stubble; your breath is a fire that will consume you. 12 And the peoples will be as if burned to lime, like thorns cut down, that are burned in the fire." 13 Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and you who are near, acknowledge my might.”

Note: Revelations 19:11-16 — He has a name written that no one knows but himself states verse 12 and this in accord with the Ancient Hebrew tradition stating that that no one knows God's real name. Any doubt who this is cleared up in verse 16 - The King of kings and Lord of lords. Note connection of word King and how it is used in Isaiah 33:10-24.

Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire [Hebrews 12:18-28]? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings [Revelations 21:27]?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, who despises the gain of oppressions, who shakes his hands, lest they hold a bribe, who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed and shuts his eyes from looking on evil, 16 he will dwell on the heights; his place of defense will be the fortresses of rocks; his bread will be given him; his water will be sure.” ESV

Note: Hebrews 12:18-28; Revelations 21:27; 2 Peter 3:7-13. It is interesting in 2 Peter 3:18 that Peter calls Jesus Lord and Savior as well as worthy of eternal glory. Is not only God our savior and no other? Does not God tell us none is worthy of praise except himself? Isaiah 43:10-11

2 Peter 3:18, “but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen” NASB

I pray that you also grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Isaiah 33:17-19, “17 Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty; they will see a land that stretches afar. 18 Your heart will muse on the terror: "Where is he who counted, where is he who weighed the tribute? Where is he who counted the towers?" 19 You will see no more the insolent people, the people of an obscure speech that you cannot comprehend, stammering in a tongue that you cannot understand.” ESV

Note: Those that will behold the King in his beauty, Isaiah 25:8-9, see all he his, in all his splendor, and will see a land that stretches afar; a new heavens and earth, Revelations 21:5-8, and from here they shall muse at terror, Revelation 20:14, a lake of fire. Who is this King? Isaiah 25:8-9 states it is the Lord.

Isaiah 33:20, “Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! Your eyes will-see Jerusalem, an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent, whose stakes will never be plucked up, nor will any of its cords be broken.” ESV

Note: Behold Zion [and this don't mean a park in Utah, brother] the City of the appointed feast. Notice the direct correlation of Isaiah 25:6-7; Revelations 19:9; Revelations 21:1-4, also verse 9-12, to Isaiah 33:20-21.

Isaiah 33:21-24, “But there the LORD in majesty will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams, where no galley with oars can go, nor majestic ship can pass. 22 For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us. 23 Your cords hang loose; they cannot hold the mast firm in its place or keep the sail spread out. Then prey and spoil in abundance will be divided; even the lame will take the prey.24 And no inhabitant will say, "I am sick"; the people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.” ESV

Isaiah 33:22, “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.” ESV

Did you not realize that bible uses the term vessels to often describe mortal beings 2 Corinthians 4:7? No ship - no vessel - no matter how great or small shall pass and enter. In other words this symbolizes that no works of men shall be the means to enter this glorious land as it is all of God's own doings not of any human work: as it is written in Ephesians 2:8-10 — “For by God's grace you have been save, not of human works least anyone should boast…”

Next, notice how in Isaiah 33 that the contextual flow of verse 21 and 23 is broken in the middle by an out of context verse 22? Verse 22 seems out of place but is it? If you understand how the ancient Hebrew language used word pictures then here is a prime example: The ships/vessels represent human beings as 2 Corinthians 4:7 points out. The Lord is to rule in our center, or Heart, we need no tackle and ropes to stay on course. Now note: Ezekiel 36:23-28, Jeremiah 31:31-37 state a new law will be written within the Heart and this Law is found in Deuteronomy 10:12 and Matthew 22:37-40. The Lord is our Lawgiver — Acts 15:8-11 — a law of love that unites wholly not a law of ropes and fetters that will be placed in between man — the heart.

Hebrews 9:15, “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.”

There is a reason Isaiah 33 verses 21 and 23 are divided by verse 22!

Now continue: Revelations 21:22-27, and Revelations 22:1-5.

Isaiah 33:22: “For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he [The Lord] will save us — [The Lord our judge; the LORD our lawgiver; the LORD our king].” According to Grammar this verse is for the heart of man so that the Lord reside there — Ephesians 3:17 And if Christ reside there by faith — then who is the Lord?

Isaiah 33:10, "Now I will arise," says the LORD [our judge], "now I will lift myself up [LORD our lawgiver]; now I will be exalted [LORD our king].”

Jesus our judge, Jesus our lawgiver — law written on tablet of our heart - Jesus our King! He saved us. Truly the Law, Psalms, and Prophets testify of Christ just as Jesus said!! And as Ephesians 3:17 reveals where Christ Jesus dwells.

I hope you read the links and this helps in some small way to learn of Christ.
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[Pierac]

Hey B.W. those links are called commentaries. I have about 6 of them on my e-sword program. They can be very helpful. However they can be very bias towards the denomination whom the writer represents. For example, R.C Sproul has a Reformation study Bible. Will it show any bias towards Calvinism? Others have bibles for Catholic, Baptist or the Methodist denominations. Commentaries are just some ones' opinion. They carry no more weight than your own. Keep that in mind lest you become a follower of men.

Pierac wrote: An excellent proof that the Doctrine of the Trinity was not an established teaching of the early Christians is in a letter by one of the trinity's greatest exponents, Tertullian of Carthage. Even though his understanding of it was that the Son was subordinate to the Father, which is contrary to today's Doctrine of the Trinity, his writings were unfortunately, very influential in the development of this doctrine. He wrote about it profusely.

The fact that he believed the Son to be inferior to the Father can be easily seen in his letter Against Praxeas. In it, he states:
Tertullian wrote:
Chap. IX. "Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son."

Tertullian wrote:
Chap. VII. "And while I recognize the Son, I assert his distinction as second to the Father."


Again, ask yourself why was his view of the trinity different from today's view if it has always been taught by the church? The reason is because it was a developing idea.

Tertullian himself gives us the greatest proof of the fact that it was a developing idea in the same letter. He states:
Tertullian wrote:
Chap. III. vv. 1. "The majority of believers, are STARTLED at the Dispensation (of the Three in One)...They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods...While the Greeks actually REFUSE to understand the oikonomia, or Dispensation" (of the Three in One).


These are incredible statements! Tertullian is acknowledging that the majority of believers did not agree with the Doctrine of the Trinity. They accused him of being a polytheist. The Greeks (either Greek Christians or Christians that spoke Greek in different lands) refused altogether to believe him. These statements are probably the best proofs that the Doctrine of the Trinity was not taught by the Apostles. If it had been taught by them, the majority of believers would have known about the Dispensation and would not have been startled by it, neither would they have accused him of worshipping two gods. This doctrine was something new, it was not the established belief of Christianity as you can see. It was starting to work itself out and trying to gain popularity, especially with Hellenized Christians. But it was not in the majority. In fact, it was very much in the minority.

Please explain Tertullian's documentation that the majority of believers are startled at the dispensation and accusing him of being preachers of two or three gods? Please note the word MAJORITY.

B.W. what you are reading is History! It's out there for all to research and see. Tertullian documented the thinking of the (Church) believers at that point in history. They were startled and upset at his teachings of a 3 in 1 god! You fight for a doctrine that has the blood of the saints on it's hands. How many Christians have to be murdered over this doctrine to show you it is not from God! It's all in our history books available for any one to read. Yet, you turn your head away from all those who were murdered. Your trinity doctrine has become drunk off the blood of the saints. How sad to have to defend something that is not even talked about in the bible. Jesus, his apostles and the prophets of old are all silent on this doctrine that lead to the murder of many followers of Christ. It amazes me you could claim that I am the one who is blind, when my theology has killed no one.



Paul

[Fortigurn]

This argument of yours is like this. The word — Monotheism is not in the Bible anywhere; therefore, since this word is not in the bible — the bible does not teach Monotheism. Is this true simply because the writers did not use the word Monotheism? According to you logic — it is. If the word Trinity is not in the bible the bible does not teach Triune nature of God...

I have never said any such thing, nor anything like it. Not once have I said that the fact that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible means that the Bible does not teach the trinity.

...Yet, the very words Elohim and Echad express God is more than a sinlge blob with a single attribute. It is not that the bible does not teach it — it is you that cannot see or hear.

Actually the words 'elohim' and 'echad' don't say anything about their subjects being 'more than a single blob' or not (the word 'echad' can certainly refer to a 'a single blob'), but as I've already pointed out, that whole 'blob' argument of yours is a straw man, since it doesn't represent anything being said here by me.

Fortigrun, I have to repeat myself because the scripture I shared cannot be twisted and by your examples of twisting them — you set yourself up above God as you know better than God!

The abuse you get away with handing out on this forum is simply breathtaking. Even if I found myself inclined to believe your arguments, I would still be turned away by your fruits.

Why do you hate us Trinitarians so much?

I don't. Remember, I'm not the one accusing you of setting yourself up above god as you know better than God, and accusing you of twisting Scripture.

The only way Jesus can save is to be the Messiah — both God and Man so that the scriptures are not violated by God contradicting himself!

As I have pointed out frequently, the apostles actually taught that Jesus was able to save because he was the man appointed by God, not because he was 'both God and Man'.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Christ was made of the very same flesh and blood as ourselves, in order that through his death he might destroy the power of death, and deliver those subject to bondage. So, according to Paul here, it was imperative that Christ be of the same flesh and blood as we ourselves, in order to effect the atonement.

Thus we see that the deliverance of those subject to bondage was predicated on Christ's mortality. Of his 'Divinity', nothing is said.

Hebrews 10:
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Here Paul says that Christ, through the offering of his body of flesh, and by his blood, enabled our sanctification, and the entering in of a new and living way, which he consecrated for us. Obviously, according to Paul, it was imperative that Christ be of the same flesh and blood as we ourselves, in order to effect the atonement.

Thus we see that the sanctification and entering in to the holiest, was predicated on Christ's mortality. Of his 'Divinity', nothing is said.

Romans 8:
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us...

Here Paul says that Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, in order that he might condemn sin in the flesh, so that we might have access to righteousness. It is clear that Paul is telling us that it was imperative Christ be of the same flesh and blood of we ourselves, in order to effect the atonement.

Thus we see that this fulfillment of righteousness was predicated on Christ's mortality. Of his 'Divinity', nothing is said.

Ephesians 2:
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Here Paul tells us that the enmity between God and man was abolished in the flesh of Christ, who, by his death on the cross, slew the enmity, so making peace and reconciling us to God. Again, according to Paul here, it was imperative that Christ be of the same flesh and blood as we ourselves, in order to effect the atonement.

Thus we see that the peace and reconciliation was predicated on Christ's mortality. Of his 'Divinity', nothing is said.

Colossians 1:
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Here Paul says that Christ, in the body of his flesh through death, by means of the blood of his cross, was able to reconcile us, and make peace.
Again, according to Paul here, it was imperative that Christ be of the same flesh and blood as we ourselves, in order to effect the atonement.

Thus we see that the peace and reconciliation was predicated on Christ's mortality. Of his 'Divinity', nothing is said.

1 Peter 2:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Here Peter says that Christ, his own self, bare our sins in his own body on the tree, and thus ensured we may live unto righteousness, our stripes being healed. Again, according to Paul here, it was imperative that Christ be of the same flesh and blood as we ourselves, in order to effect the atonement.

Thus we see that the righteousness and healing was predicated on Christ's mortality. Of his 'Divinity', nothing is said.

Every time the apostles expound the atonement, they demonstrate without possibility of dispute that its salvic efficacy was predicated on Christ's absolute mortality, and not on any 'divine-nature-added-to-human-nature'.

Paul tells us that Christ had to be man in order to effect the atonement. Not once does he tell us Christ had to be God.

Paul also tells us that Christ had to be human in order to be our mediator:

Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:
14 Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.

His mediatorship is predicated solely on his being a human, not on his being God. It is predicated on him being tempted like we are, not being like God (unable to be tempted). So we have God on the one hand, man on the other, and Christ in the middle - Christ the man:

1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God's purpose at his appointed time.

Christ the man, not 'God the Son'.

Fortigrun the bible plainly teaches the preexistence of Christ Jesus. He himself said so — that He came down from heaven.

As I have already pointed out. saying that Jesus came down from heaven doesn't prove that he existed before his birth. You haven't addressed my argument on this subject yet.

Fortigrun — admit it you HATE JESUS CHRIST!

Again, I'm amazed that you're allowed to abuse me like this.

The bible is so clear on the matter of who Jesus is. It is you that cannot see or hear as you deny who the real Holy Spirit is too.

This is what I call clear:

Acts 2:
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know—
23 this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles.

The apostle Peter taught that Jesus is a man, not God, or even a God, or even on the same level as God. Three thousand people were baptized into Christ that day, with the understanding that he was a man. True Christians therefore are baptized with the belief that Jesus is a man.

Note also that Peter distinguishes Christ from God, and says that Christ was a man through whom God worked, not that he was God who became man.

In his speech to the people after he had healed the lame mand, the apostle Peter tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy given by Moses, that God would send them a Messiah who was a man like them:

Acts 3:
22 Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must obey him in everything he tells you.
23 Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people.'

Note that Peter tells the crowd that Jesus was a prophet like Moses, from among their brothers. He does not tell them that Jesus is God, or that he came down from heaven.

In his speech to a law court, the apostle Stephen likewise tells them that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy given by Moses, that God would send them a Messiah who was a man like them:

Acts 7:
37 This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, 'God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers.

He uses the same quote as the apostle Peter had used, telling them that the prophet God would send (the Messiah), would be 'of your brethren, like unto me' - in other words, a man, a human being.

When he was in Athens, the apostle Paul was speaking to some people about who Jesus was. In his speech, he told them clearly that Jesus was a man who received authority from God:

Acts 17:
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Here Paul says that Jesus is a man appointed by God to judge the world. Paul does not preach that Christ is God. He preaches that Christ is a man authorised by God, a man whom God has appointed.

In his first letter to Timothy, the apostle Paul says that there is one God, and that there is one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ, who he says is a man:

1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God's purpose at his appointed time.

Here we have God on one side, and humans on the other. In between we have Christ - a man, not God.

It couldn't be any clearer. The apostles all taught time and time and time again that Jesus was a man at his birth, and was still a man after his resurrection and going to the Father.

I asked the other moderators if you should be allowed back to discuss this topic and so far it has been okay. It is you that are spamming this thread — not me — as I have not responded in any degree like you have.

Can you give any evidence of me spamming? I've given you one post in answer to every one of yours. When you started to repeat your posts as opposed to answering my posts, I didn't simply keep repeating my posts, I pointed out that you hadn't answered my last post, and didn't bother posting again.

I am going to be gracious and grant you a temporary ban from this Forum so that we can answer your arguments line by line. This ban I expect will be coming shortly either from me or another. After we answer your doctrinal arguments, the ban will be lifted or it maybe perpetual. This does not prove you are right but rather allows others to voice their objections to you false doctrine and give us time to back up our position.

You have had all the opportunity necessary to answer my arguments line by line. Over the last couple of weeks I haven't even been posting on this forum every day. I've sometimes gone two or even three days without making a single post. There is absolutely no need to ban me just to give yourselves opportunity to answer me. You've had plenty of opportunity to do so. And there are far more of you than there are of me.

Here is what you don't believe:

Jesus work on the cross cannot atone for sins

Jesus had a beginning and was only a creature man and nothing more

The Holy Spirit is either just the bible or is it some type of energy force? I am not sure what you believe about Spirit.

Satan does not exist as an real entity.

And what else? And correct me about what you believe if do not have it right stated above?

Well for a start, you said that this is what I don't believe, but I think you mean to say that this is what I do believe. As for corrections:

* No, I don't believe Jesus death on the cross 'atoned' for us in the sense you believe (you think Jesus died as a human sacrifice to appease an angry God, whereas I believe Jesus died on the cross as an expression of the Father's love towards us, that we might turn from our sins and live, and in that sense he ransoms us)

* I certainly believe Jesus had a beginning (the gospels spell it out very clearly), and was a man (as I have shown, this is what the apostles always taught)

* I have never said that the Holy Spirit is 'just the Bible', or some kind of 'energy force' - it is the power of God]

* Satan can certainly exist as a real entity - the angel in front of Balaam was a satan to him, Peter was a satan to Jesus, and both David and Solomon were threatened by enemy nations who were satans

[Fortigurn]

I know there are those that will try to twist the text somehow by claiming that the 'He' mentioned in the text somehow refers to an exalted mortal agent of God and not to God himself or that Yehovah also refers to an exalted mortal agent and not in reference to God at all.

I don't know anyone who would say any such thing.

The ancient Hebrew language used in the bible is a wholistic language and not primarily a pragmatic scholastic language. It looks for the whole part and paints a picture within the mind of the whole. It usages of words express a picturesque icon within the mind. It is a language that engages thought to begin exploring the mystery of the meaning of scripture text by connecting contextual themes. By doing so, the reader and hearer explore the richness of where the word of God leads, by his Spirit, not man's.

This is not a description of 'The ancient Hebrew language', it's a description of how that language is (allegedly), used. Please distinguish between the two.

For example, in Isaiah 33:22 the word 'he' is personal pronoun that is connected to the Lord. The words 'saves us' is in the Hiphil Imperfect tense with a Pronomial Suffix 'us' attached which is view as part of a whole event or action, situation and in this case is connected to the words He and Lord of verse 22.

To cut a long story short, it means exactly what it says in the English translation, and Hebrew pronouns, verbs and nouns agree in the same way as English pronouns, verbs and nouns. Nothing new here.

This simply put, indicates plainly that the 'he' mentioned in this verse is the LORD GOD our judge; the LORD GOD our lawgiver; the LORD GOD our king and the word translated Lord is the one translated Yehôvâh - meaning God himself — not a mortal agent!

I agree 100%. And note the singular pronoun here - Yahweh is one person, not three.

The language is holistic here and is to be read so. I will add some arrows and brackets to show how this holistic reading works:

No the language is not 'holistic'. I have no idea why you keep dragging that word in here.

The grammar of the text point to the Lord and no one else: Even the word King used in verse is all-inclusive leading to the identity of who the King is mentioned in Isaiah 33:17 as the LORD our king.

I agree 100%. And note the singular pronoun here - Yahweh is one person, not three.

Jesus was telling them that he will do greater works than the mortal agents did before. Jesus was stating in essences to them that he was the Messiah — not just only a mortal man but rather - God and man because only God can do greater works - as there is no violation of scriptures in this — God's doing.

Jesus was certainly saying that he was the Messiah. And the Messiah, in the Bible, was always a mortal agent. You do realise that the Hebrew for 'Messiah' means 'annointed'? Do you know how many 'messiahs' there are in the Old Testament? I'll give you a hint - more than one, and plenty of them are mortal men (Cyrus of Persia is just one example). Throughout the Old Testament the pattern is clear - Yahweh saves through His messiah, who is a mortal man.

The bible states clearly that only God can save.

Absolutely. And how does He save? Typically, by annointing an agent - a messiah - to perform the act of salvation.

It is interesting in 2 Peter 3:18 that Peter calls Jesus Lord and Savior as well as worthy of eternal glory. Is not only God our savior and no other? Does not God tell us none is worthy of praise except himself? Isaiah 43:10-11

Fallacy of the undistributed middle. I've already addressed this.

Did you not realize that bible uses the term vessels to often describe mortal beings

Yes I did. This doesn't really address the issue at hand. The rest of what you wrote was simply more of the same.

[Pierac]

B.W. wrote:
Fortigurn the bible plainly teaches the preexistence of Christ Jesus. He himself said so — that He came down from heaven. Fortigrun — admit it you HATE JESUS CHRIST!

The bible is so clear on the matter of who Jesus is. It is you that cannot see or hear as you deny who the real Holy Spirit is too.

I asked the other moderators if you should be allowed back to discuss this topic and so far it has been okay. It is you that are spamming this thread — not me — as I have not responded in any degree like you have.

I am going to be gracious and grant you a temporary ban from this Forum so that we can answer your arguments line by line. This ban I expect will be coming shortly either from me or another. After we answer your doctrinal arguments, the ban will be lifted or it maybe perpetual. This does not prove you are right but rather allows others to voice their objections to you false doctrine and give us time to back up our position.

Whoa, how did I miss this? It seems Fortigurn has a bit of a history here! From what I have seen, Fortigurn is only guilty of having a different belief not being a bad person. For the most part all here have been pretty civil; given the topic is dealing with Religion.

B.W. seems you would have Fortigurn burned at the stake here! Well, I guess if you can't burn him you could at least ban him! That is the easy way out. Just keep the yes men/women around and everyone is happy. Instead of Iron sharpening Iron, you have clay mixing with clay on the spinning table of tradition.

“Line by line”, oh please! No one has explained one single verse of mine. At least YLTYLT attempted to answer my one question but could only come up with it as being some BIG mystery. At least he tried!

No my friend, if you can not refute Fortigurn's doctrinal understanding you don't need to ban him, you need to re-evaluate your own scriptural understandings. You are letting your past dealings fog your understanding of the truth.

1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Will he? No he will not! Why would he ask if it was so?


Peace
Paul

[Pierac]

Fortigrun, could you send me you e-mail address before you are banned. I can not seem to get the pm to work on this forum. Thanks Paul

[Johnny 27]

Fortigurn & Pierac,

I have learned a great deal regarding the reality of "WHO GOD IS" from what you have written!!! It is true that Satan has decieved the whole world - and what does the whole world believe - that God is a trinity and that Christ preexisted. B.W. says that Christ came down from heaven - can you think of a single thing that was not sourced from the heavenly realm. Adam this earth and universe came from the unseen world Heb 11:3 - framed by God "the ONE TRUE GOD" John 17:3! B.W. must think that heaven has a geographical location. Keep up the good work, what you have said here in regard to God is the absolute truth. Moses was not ignorant of the God he worshipped Deut 6:4 - and neither was Christ and the apostles Mark 12:28~33.

John

[Fortigurn]

Thanks, I also believe that Moses was not ignorant of the God he worshipped, and that Paul worshipped the same God. After all, Paul does say that he worshipped 'The God of our fathers', and taught according to 'the Law and the prophets'. I don't believe the fathers believed in a trinity, and I don't see the Law or the prophets teaching the trinity either.

[Byblos]

Fortigurn & Pierac,

I have learned a great deal regarding the reality of "WHO GOD IS" from what you have written!!! It is true that Satan has deceived the whole world - and what does the whole world believe - that God is a trinity and that Christ preexisted. B.W. says that Christ came down from heaven - can you think of a single thing that was not sourced from the heavenly realm. Adam this earth and universe came from the unseen world Heb 11:3 - framed by God "the ONE TRUE GOD" John 17:3! B.W. must think that heaven has a geographical location. Keep up the good work, what you have said here in regard to God is the absolute truth. Moses was not ignorant of the God he worshipped Deut 6:4 - and neither was Christ and the apostles Mark 12:28~33.

John

Then I suggest that you, Fortigurn and Pierac form your own joint website in which to advance whatever it is you believe, whether universalism, Christ is only a man, or whatever. This is a trinitarian site and we make no apologies for it. Ample evidence was given that clearly demonstrates the divinity of Christ and the parallelism between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in this thread and countless others. Moreover, the original poster made it very clear the question was not about the divinity of Christ but rather if belief in the trinity per se was necessary for salvation. Irrespective of the result, however, I think this thread clearly demonstrates that belief in the trinity and the divinity of Christ are inseparable (at least for trinitarians). There's only one God we call our God, our Lord and our Saviour and there's no other, lest we become heretics or polytheists.

Just some personal thoughts, I wonder if Christ was just a man why then was Moses not enough to bring about humanity's salvation? Perhaps Buddha or Mohamed or some other self-professed prophet is right then, how do we know for sure? Why should we believe Jesus and not them? After all, they're all human and some do claim inspiration. Like Jac said, the Bible demonstrates the divinity of God the Father, the divinity of his son Jesus Christ, as well as the divinity and individuality of the Holy Spirit. Either they are all gods and the bible is mere fiction, or there's one true God, Father, Son, and HS. And like B.W. keeps saying, God promised us that he would be our only Saviour and none other, as He will not give his glory to any other. Either God is a liar and he gave his glory to another or Christ is God. There simply is no way around it.

Having been absent for a while and reading it in its entirety, IMO this thread should have been locked the moment Jac (the original poster) was ready to answer objections in detail and was shot down as such (page 6):

Fortigurn

I was in the middle of replying to your longer thread when I saw your most recent statement here:

It doesn't really matter what you say

If that is your attitude, then I don't suppose there is any reason to continue this discussion. Usually, I have these types of discussions for the sake of the readers, but I have my sincere doubts that anyone here, other than Pierac, maybe, will give your arguments any serious weight at all simply because our underlying theologies are incompatible. If, then, "it doesn't matter what" I say, then everything I say is a waste of time. I have much better things to do then explain my position to someone who isn't even going to give me a proper hearing.

God bless

Much too much leeway was given so as not be unfair but the time has come:
Thank you all for your participation, this thread is locked.

Byblos
Moderator.