Can you prove God exists only using logic?

[J.L. Jameson]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post and so i'll try to make it count. I run a similiar forum (http://www.nonConforums.com), and so am always interested in when i hear about other forums. I've always been fascinated in why people believe more than what they believe.

I am wondering if any of you believe that you can prove that God exists using only logic and reason? If yes, why? If no, why not?

Thanks.

[Gman]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post and so i'll try to make it count. I run a similiar forum (http://www.nonConforums.com), and so am always interested in when i hear about other forums. I've always been fascinated in why people believe more than what they believe.

I am wondering if any of you believe that you can prove that God exists using only logic and reason? If yes, why? If no, why not?

Thanks.

By that same logic.. Can you prove that God doesn't exist using only logic and reason?

Thanks.

[J.L. Jameson]

Maybe, maybe not...but for this post, i'm only interested in what you guys think, not what i think.

I already know what i think.

[Kurieuo]

Strictly speaking. Nothing can be proved by logic. We all have to start with some accepted foundations. For example logic itself as being epistemologically accurate and our experiences or perception of the world being accurate.

[Canuckster1127]

Logic is a measure of internal constructive consistency only, and is only as true as the presuppositions it is built upon.

As such, in this realm, logic proves consistency, not truth.

Logic, by itself, can neither prove, not disprove, the existence or non-existence of God.

Nevertheless, I believe God exists.

[madscientist]

Me neither i dont think just logic can prove it. Nor any mathematical equation or smething. Probably the tiny fraction of prpbablity shows there is SOME creative force but not logic itself.
What is logic? BTW is God bound by logic - that He can't go beyond its laws?

And isn't logic universal and eternally existant; that is, even if there were no God, logic would still exist? And in my opinion, God does fall into the laws of logic, since He can't do anything that is impossible, e.g. by definiton. Why? Because it's definiton - and that's logic. And He can't make a triangle with all interior angles to be more than 180 degrees etc. SO i thinbk that logic is above us all, even God. And it's always like that and will be from eternity to eternity. However, it's no living being, unlike God - Who is living and able to express His love etc. (my opinion at least)
Dont think logic can or cant prove/disprove His existence.

[J.L. Jameson]

Thanks for the replies...this is all very interesting to me!

[madscientist]

Thanks for the replies...this is all very interesting to me!

You're welcome!!
Now its my turn to thank you... just registered at nonconforums. Hope I'll enjoy it!!
God bless.

[puritan lad]

Can you prove that logic exists without God? Are the laws of logic universal and invariant, or are they merely the product of accidental human neurons firing off electrical impulses? If the former, how do we prove this, or account for it? If the latter, then the laws of logic are merely conventions among men, and thus differ from brain to brain. Therefore, they are useless in any debate or discussion.

"..Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Colossians 2:2-3)

Without God, we can't know anything. (acknowledgements to Greg Bahnsen)

[l4ur4]

Let's go with two basic options.
1. The universe is infinite, with no need of a beginning, and no need of an end. (This would be the typical athiest argument.) No God.
2. God is infinite, with no need of a beginning, and no need of an end.

Okay, no God. If the universe is infinite, then this would mean that the natural tendency of things would be to be infinite. If this were not the natural tendency of things, then the universe would be finite, and therefore need a creator. It would be silly to think that the tendency of things would be to be infinite, but the largest and most permanent thing we have (the universe) somehow defies this tendency. It would be equally as silly to assume that the universe is infinite, but the natural tendency of things is to be finite. There is an obvious disconnect. So we must assume that it is infinite, and that the natural tendency of things is also to be infinite. Now, the earth is finite. We know that it had a beginning, just as life on earth had a beginning. We know that everything on Earth has an end and that energy can be used up. If energy can have an end, then it cannot be infinite. This also means that it must have had a beginning. The disconnect enters here. Why, if the tendency of things is to be infinite, are there so many examples of finite things? If there is no intentional creation to cause such a deviation from the norm (which would require a consciousness, not merely the mindless universe), then why are we here? More importantly, HOW are we here? By all logic, we too should be infinite, as this is the proposed basis for the argument of atheism -- an infinite universe.

Choice 2. Yes God. God is infinite. God exists outside of time. He can do this because he indeed created time itself. Therefore, God needs no beginning, no end. God created the universe, time, life, everthing. He basically exists on a different plane, for a visual example. God is all powerful, as far as our feeble minds could fathom, and greater than the universe. If we are assuming that there is a God, then there is nothing he can't do within our universe and we really can't argue anything against Him. This also means that we have to acknowledge that we really don't know anything, so believing that He exists, we HAVE to put faith in the only one who does. Funny that he has provided us with this paradox and that it also happens to be the only thing he asks for . . .

Written by a former atheist.

[J.L. Jameson]

Again, thanks for the replies.

A continuing question, what are your thoughts on apologetics? This is a fairly general question, so feel free to answer specifically or generally.

[madscientist]

Can you prove that logic exists without God? Are the laws of logic universal and invariant, or are they merely the product of accidental human neurons firing off electrical impulses? If the former, how do we prove this, or account for it? If the latter, then the laws of logic are merely conventions among men, and thus differ from brain to brain. Therefore, they are useless in any debate or discussion.

"..Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Colossians 2:2-3)

Without God, we can't know anything. (acknowledgements to Greg Bahnsen)

Well we cant prove that since without God, we wouldnt be even here but the laws of mathematics and universe - not the physical laws i am referring to however - are the same i think and think i believe. I also believe there could be some universe with different laws then ours, e.g. where there were completely different particles, etc etc. However, the laws of mathematics and basic logic cant be changed i believe. Even God cant go against logic. He can't for example make a being who is immortal and then make it die. Why? Because immortal means he cant die!! So my point was basically that those universal and most fundamental laws always from infinity past to present (just laws - nothing living, unlike God !).
And yes i do agree that without God we dont know anything. and that in Him all wisdom and knowledge is hidden.

As for l4ur4's reply - i completely agree. However if something had a beginning, it must have an end - hmm well what about our souls for example - existed since infinity? dont think so. yet we're immortal once we're born. What a paradox...

A continuing question, what are your thoughts on apologetics? This is a fairly general question, so feel free to answer specifically or generally.

Hmm sorry i heard this before - even is on the website of G&S but got no time to go and see what exactly it is about - jus remember i been there some time ago lookin up stuff. is it about God and His existence etc? So when u specify more, im glad to discuss!

[errant]

By that same logic.. Can you prove that God doesn't exist using only logic and reason?

Can I point out the very important point that this is actually proof against the existence of god. If it is possible for anything to be reasonably true because we cannot prove it's non-existence then things would be crazy right? Leaving aside the fact that there would then be better explanations (or more powerful ones) for the Universe than a God then doesn't it follow that argument by lack of negative proof is false?

Also of interest is the explanation that God is timeless (exists outside of time and obviously our observed space). I follow this and whole heartedly believe the concept of time is only one example of many things - most of which we cannot at the moment comprehend. However I fail to see how this proves God does not have a creator. Because you are then judging Gods timelessness against our time base. God must still have been created - just not on a level we have fathomed yet. (IE just because we have time and God may not doesn't mean these are the only two options and something must have come first (even eternity has a beginning from which to measure it).

As a note I am a realist (not agnostic, apologist or any other random term ) in the sense I believe what can be proved to me - so am completely open to proofs anyone can throw at me (though I will do my best to consider them objectively ).

[madscientist]

Also of interest is the explanation that God is timeless (exists outside of time and obviously our observed space). I follow this and whole heartedly believe the concept of time is only one example of many things - most of which we cannot at the moment comprehend. However I fail to see how this proves God does not have a creator. Because you are then judging Gods timelessness against our time base. God must still have been created - just not on a level we have fathomed yet. (IE just because we have time and God may not doesn't mean these are the only two options and something must have come first (even eternity has a beginning from which to measure it).

Well i dont think it ssuposed to prove God doesnt have a creatpr. But an argument often said is "if universe needed a crator, then why wouldnt the creator of it need one"? Ya... God has never been created. He has just existed.
Eternity having a beginning - yes very interesting!! does it? eternity past to eternity future cant. But exactly - heaven also must have a beginning... yet it is eternity.
But since time wasnt running before God made the universe etc - there must have been something such as "time" before - i mean, what about other beings such as satan or other angels? when were they created?
And heaven/hell - if these arent on a universe... - how can be there TIME??
Tough questions to which i think is no asnwer on this current universe...

[Jad]

I am wondering if any of you believe that you can prove that God exists using only logic and reason?

The title of your thread here is called Can you prove God exists only using logic? However inside the first post you are not asking if one can prove God's existence using logic on it's own, you are asking if one can prove that God exists using only logic AND reason. There is a big difference here.

As everyone has correctly pointed out already logic cannot prove or disprove anything, on it's own. Add reason to your logic and you get a difference story.

1) All Irish people have pink tails
2) Jameson and Jad are Irish, therefore
3) Jameson and Jad have pink tails

Just quickly the above statement is completely logical but it's not actually true, obviously. It is logical only because the conclusion (3) follows the first two statements logically but in reality there is no such thing as human people with pink tails. That is where reason comes in. Reason gives us actual material truth about reality.

In this sense (of logic AND reason) I believe the existence of God can be proven. In the case of logic on it's own, people with pink tails cannot be proven and neither can God Himself.

So Mr. Jameson which is it you are asking?

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