Can you prove God exists only using logic?

[J.L. Jameson]

So i startd this thread, my personal life got super busy, and i am bouncing between multiple other forums...needless to say....i forgot to come back and follow up on the thread i started. Sorry!

Anyways, i need to catch up in the convo.

Jad asked if I needed to clarify whether i was asking if i truly meant to say "logic AND reason" or just "logic", and that there is a difference....and yep Jad, you are right, there does seem to be a difference. Honestly, i never really thought about that difference until now. So thanks...

I need to catch up on the rest of the thread before i pipe back in....and there definately is a lot to read!

[madscientist]

I don't think heaven is the only meaning to this life (to get to heaven). I believe in a two world system where there are good things in heaven that we can't have here on earth and there are good things here on earth that we can't have in heaven. For example things like virtues that we can only have in this world like courage and compassion which are not possible in a world without problems (heaven). Only in this world can we show courage because there would be risks to take here on earth but not in heaven. We can only show compassion here on earth because in the new heaven there is nothing to be compassionate for. Compassion being the feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune.

I believe heaven is a perfect place but I don't believe heaven is a place where 'All' goods are possible. I believe the 'goods' here on earth and the 'goods' in heaven combine to make 'All possible goods' and that is every reason to stay here on earth and become more intimate with Jesus. That is what I think the ultimate purpose of this life is; not to merely get to heaven but to love God with all your heart, soul and mind right here on earth; and to love your neighbour as yourself with good virtues and many other good things here on earth. (Matthew 22:37-40)
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Interesting Jad. i also thought about this - there are not all the goods here. cos not all are possible. But i dont think we will mind in heaven that we're not able to express some of them.
and love - how is love possible in heaven if no hate is possible? if we wont have free will, but rather will be like machines - will we? - that are only capable of good deeds - how can we truly love God and other people?
as for the purpose - ok to love God. However some people are not given the chance really koz they are either handicapped or die too young. OK fine lets say its "to fulfill God's will". The paradox is however that after whatever we do, we could say "well because it happened it must mean it was God's will". So dont think that could be the purpose. whether i kill or love, hate, have evil/good thoughts or whatever - in a way or another the same answer could be given. And why some do live long and some do not. do all of us have a specific purpose here?

OK so we could say we have 2 purposes: to do what God instructed us to do - even without us knowing it, i.e. even if we are evil and end up in hell and kill millions people (e.g. Hitler), and the other purpose is to enjoy our life. Just live, have pleasure etc. The Bible i think says a lot about our purpose here.

And if the ultimate purpose isnt heaven... what is it then? Once in heaven, we wont even remember this current life. Bible says that "everything we do we should do t bring Glory to God". Yes but - once we're in hell/heaven - will it make a difference in God's eyes? He is the One who knows the past, present and future of the world and universe - so here is another tough question...

[Jad]

Interesting Jad. i also thought about this - there are not all the goods here. cos not all are possible. But i dont think we will mind in heaven that we're not able to express some of them.

Hehe yes I am sure there is a tonne more good in the new heaven compared to the wonderful things we have down here on earth right now. Seventy times seven one might say.

and love - how is love possible in heaven if no hate is possible?

Love doesn't need hate to exist. God IS love and He is a wholly good God. It's like saying something here on earth cannot be good on it's own. Mother Teresa was a good person while here on earth. Even if you took her away from all human beings and locked her in cell, she is still a good person. There doesn't have to be a duality between love and hate for love to exist. Plus I think in heaven it will be different somehow in comparison to the kind of love we find here on earth now. We can experience the presence of God here on earth right now but not the full presence of God like I believe we will in heaven. It's a different ball game when it comes to the new heaven me thinks.

if we wont have free will, but rather will be like machines - will we? - that are only capable of good deeds - how can we truly love God and other people?

Great question!

I think we will only want to choose good deeds in heaven due the the overwhelmingly full presence of God. Will we need free will anymore? I'm not sure. Maybe we will get a new or different kind of 'will' with our new bodies? I don't think we will just be robots however. I don't think it's a case of our free will being taken away from us without a choice. I think of it more like the moral law here on earth. I simply think we will not need them or have any use for them anymore in the new heaven.

as for the purpose - ok to love God. However some people are not given the chance really koz they are either handicapped or die too young. OK fine lets say its "to fulfill God's will". The paradox is however that after whatever we do, we could say "well because it happened it must mean it was God's will". So dont think that could be the purpose. whether i kill or love, hate, have evil/good thoughts or whatever - in a way or another the same answer could be given. And why some do live long and some do not. do all of us have a specific purpose here?

Basically yes we all have a specific purpose here. We all have a unique purpose here on earth. Some of us are to be accountants and some of us are to be rock artists. Some are to be chimney sweepers and some are to be handicapped. Some are to be healed and some are not to be healed. People think on judgment day God will judge us according to all the things we have done bad throughout our entire lives. He will judge us according to our hearts but it won't be Him it will be Jesus. He will also judge us on what we were called to do. That is what I think we forget more often than not. To be honest and open with you sometimes that scares me. Am I doing the Lords will right now? Am I even heading in the right direction??

OK so we could say we have 2 purposes: to do what God instructed us to do - even without us knowing it, i.e. even if we are evil and end up in hell and kill millions people (e.g. Hitler), and the other purpose is to enjoy our life. Just live, have pleasure etc. The Bible i think says a lot about our purpose here.

God wants us to live life to the full. That doesn't mean experiencing pleasure all the time. The atheist wants a theistic world where our pleasure is always maximized and our pain is always minimized. If this were God's priority then the famous argument of 'the problem with evil' arises. Think of the apostle Paul when he was beaten. He received the 39 lashes five times, was beaten with rods 3 times, was shipwrecked 3 times and he was almost stoned to death; in the end he was beheaded for preaching the Gospel and it never occurred to Paul to say "Wait a minute! I'm one of God's most dedicated followers, if anyone should be living a life of pleasure it should be me!" According to the Bible, pain and pleasure are nowhere near the top priority. Morality, free will, virtues, love, truth, justice, and doing God's will; these are all a far greater priority to God than pain and pleasure.

And if the ultimate purpose isnt heaven... what is it then? Once in heaven, we wont even remember this current life. Bible says that "everything we do we should do t bring Glory to God". Yes but - once we're in hell/heaven - will it make a difference in God's eyes? He is the One who knows the past, present and future of the world and universe - so here is another tough question...

I think the ultimate purpose in life is be in the presence of God. To be in full relationship with Him. That is heaven to me.

Curious... why do you think we won't remember this current life? Do you think God is going to erase our memories or something like that?

Top questions thanks madscientist.

Jad


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[madscientist]

Love doesn't need hate to exist. God IS love and He is a wholly good God. It's like saying something here on earth cannot be good on it's own. Mother Teresa was a good person while here on earth. Even if you took her away from all human beings and locked her in cell, she is still a good person. There doesn't have to be a duality between love and hate for love to exist. Plus I think in heaven it will be different somehow in comparison to the kind of love we find here on earth now. We can experience the presence of God here on earth right now but not the full presence of God like I believe we will in heaven. It's a different ball game when it comes to the new heaven me thinks.

DOesnt it? umm i think i read that in order for love to be possible, the choice of not loving must be possible. that relates to free will - in order to have free will and able to express our love to God, we need the choice of love and of non-love. that how i understand it for the past year and half! well who knows. because how can we say we love someone if we have no knowledge of the ability to not love someone? arent we then just machines? isnt that what free will is for? because if it werent existant then God wouldnt be able to show us His love etc.

Great question!

I think we will only want to choose good deeds in heaven due the the overwhelmingly full presence of God. Will we need free will anymore? I'm not sure. Maybe we will get a new or different kind of 'will' with our new bodies? I don't think we will just be robots however. I don't think it's a case of our free will being taken away from us without a choice. I think of it more like the moral law here on earth. I simply think we will not need them or have any use for them anymore in the new heaven.

Ya. or we wont have knowledge of evil... that most probably. we wont have fleshly desires - but how possible? we will have a different sort of "brain" in heaven.
Hmm - another thought - maybe off topic but - still dont get it actually why spirits can exist without a body, yet are living, but us humans, our soul or spirit is our mind, which is of a material kind - and when the neuronic connections etc fail or differ due to hormones etc we act differently. so basically our soul is our consciousness but thats solely due to our psychology and how we are built. But since the other spirits dont have that - then... how does free will and consciousness and all that crazy stuff work??!!

Basically yes we all have a specific purpose here. We all have a unique purpose here on earth. Some of us are to be accountants and some of us are to be rock artists. Some are to be chimney sweepers and some are to be handicapped. Some are to be healed and some are not to be healed. People think on judgment day God will judge us according to all the things we have done bad throughout our entire lives. He will judge us according to our hearts but it won't be Him it will be Jesus. He will also judge us on what we were called to do. That is what I think we forget more often than not. To be honest and open with you sometimes that scares me. Am I doing the Lords will right now? Am I even heading in the right direction??

Ok so predestination is basically our purpose... yet we have choices. so we become what God wants us, yet we can choose.

God wants us to live life to the full. That doesn't mean experiencing pleasure all the time. The atheist wants a theistic world where our pleasure is always maximized and our pain is always minimized. If this were God's priority then the famous argument of 'the problem with evil' arises. Think of the apostle Paul when he was beaten. He received the 39 lashes five times, was beaten with rods 3 times, was shipwrecked 3 times and he was almost stoned to death; in the end he was beheaded for preaching the Gospel and it never occurred to Paul to say "Wait a minute! I'm one of God's most dedicated followers, if anyone should be living a life of pleasure it should be me!" According to the Bible, pain and pleasure are nowhere near the top priority. Morality, free will, virtues, love, truth, justice, and doing God's will; these are all a far greater priority to God than pain and pleasure.

But shouldnt there be like the AIM of life as being with God, yes and all that - but that the aim is happiness? That we live a fulfilled life. what does such a feeling lead to? happiness, joy, pleasure. because i think if there was nothing nice to look up for in this life, only suffering, such as hell, then - why not commit suicide? if we suffered the whole time - would there be a purpose? i think the purpose is to get out of life what we can. and in a biblical way to prepare for eternity. purpose of that? so that we enjoy our fellowship with God. but if that were lame and without pleasure etc - a purpose there? we could as well be dead, unable to feel anything, not having consciousness etc. Thats how i view it. there must be a higher purpose. and if that doesnt make us happy then why live in the first place? in that case life would be really absurd!

Curious... why do you think we won't remember this current life? Do you think God is going to erase our memories or something like that?

[/quote]
Hm ya heard that many times. and why would we keep them? i mean - a different world, etc. I think it even mentions in the Bible that. And i dont think that the memories we had, flawed as they were, and bad as they were, relative to heaven, is going to be something that will determine us eternally - what kind of stuff we will know. all will be forgotten, even who was our friend, sibling, etc - no gender in heaven etc. All a new world. a perfect one.

But thanks a lot for the effort taken to answer those questions that were in my mind !!

[Jad]

Love doesn't need hate to exist. God IS love and He is a wholly good God. It's like saying something here on earth cannot be good on it's own. Mother Teresa was a good person while here on earth. Even if you took her away from all human beings and locked her in cell, she is still a good person. There doesn't have to be a duality between love and hate for love to exist. Plus I think in heaven it will be different somehow in comparison to the kind of love we find here on earth now. We can experience the presence of God here on earth right now but not the full presence of God like I believe we will in heaven. It's a different ball game when it comes to the new heaven me thinks.

DOesnt it? umm i think i read that in order for love to be possible, the choice of not loving must be possible. that relates to free will - in order to have free will and able to express our love to God, we need the choice of love and of non-love. that how i understand it for the past year and half! well who knows. because how can we say we love someone if we have no knowledge of the ability to not love someone? arent we then just machines? isnt that what free will is for? because if it werent existant then God wouldnt be able to show us His love etc.

The opposite of Love, is Non-Love, not Hate. I might not love cats but that doesn't mean I Hate them. I'm a dog 'person' hehe. I don't love Paris Hilton but I don't hate her either. I think we can love something or someone without having the prerequisite to Hate them if that love is not there. So you are correct about love and non-love; but non-love does not necessarily mean hate. That's true free will I think. If we only had the choice to love or hate something or someone, and nothing in between, I don't think we could call that free will. Or it might still be free will, just not a very good one.

Hmm - another thought - maybe off topic but - still dont get it actually why spirits can exist without a body, yet are living, but us humans, our soul or spirit is our mind, which is of a material kind - and when the neuronic connections etc fail or differ due to hormones etc we act differently. so basically our soul is our consciousness but thats solely due to our psychology and how we are built. But since the other spirits dont have that - then... how does free will and consciousness and all that crazy stuff work??!!

Haha good point. I read recently about a great scientific find; that our memory is not limited to our brain but is spread right throughout the body, including the heart! So I think our new bodies that we receive in the new heaven and earth will be physical as well and it will be a new place to store all our memories in. Our hormones and stuff like that is an interesting question. I think we won't need them anymore but I don't think the memory of them will go away with them. As my brother and I always say about heaven, I hope in heaven we can replay all the times we played pranks on our friends just so we can see the reactions on their faces again... and again and again and again.
I also think the memories we hold now, good or bad, play a part in the person and character that we are today. We learn so much when we struggle through pain and suffering. I don't think these character building memories will go away. We will have no need for them any longer in the the new heaven but don't think God will delete them as such.

Basically yes we all have a specific purpose here. We all have a unique purpose here on earth. Some of us are to be accountants and some of us are to be rock artists. Some are to be chimney sweepers and some are to be handicapped. Some are to be healed and some are not to be healed. People think on judgment day God will judge us according to all the things we have done bad throughout our entire lives. He will judge us according to our hearts but it won't be Him it will be Jesus. He will also judge us on what we were called to do. That is what I think we forget more often than not. To be honest and open with you sometimes that scares me. Am I doing the Lords will right now? Am I even heading in the right direction??

Ok so predestination is basically our purpose... yet we have choices. so we become what God wants us, yet we can choose.

This is doing my head in lol. But yes something like that. God is outside of Time and Space so He looks at us and our choices very differently to what you and I do. We see our lives in stages, bound by time, where He sees it all lain out before Him simultaneously or something like that.
This is off topic but have you ever thought how God would have come up with the concept of Time and Space where there was no space and time in existence? It blows my mind. What a great God we serve!

God wants us to live life to the full. That doesn't mean experiencing pleasure all the time. The atheist wants a theistic world where our pleasure is always maximized and our pain is always minimized. If this were God's priority then the famous argument of 'the problem with evil' arises. Think of the apostle Paul when he was beaten. He received the 39 lashes five times, was beaten with rods 3 times, was shipwrecked 3 times and he was almost stoned to death; in the end he was beheaded for preaching the Gospel and it never occurred to Paul to say "Wait a minute! I'm one of God's most dedicated followers, if anyone should be living a life of pleasure it should be me!" According to the Bible, pain and pleasure are nowhere near the top priority. Morality, free will, virtues, love, truth, justice, and doing God's will; these are all a far greater priority to God than pain and pleasure.

But shouldnt there be like the AIM of life as being with God, yes and all that - but that the aim is happiness? That we live a fulfilled life. what does such a feeling lead to? happiness, joy, pleasure. because i think if there was nothing nice to look up for in this life, only suffering, such as hell, then - why not commit suicide? if we suffered the whole time - would there be a purpose? i think the purpose is to get out of life what we can. and in a biblical way to prepare for eternity. purpose of that? so that we enjoy our fellowship with God. but if that were lame and without pleasure etc - a purpose there? we could as well be dead, unable to feel anything, not having consciousness etc. Thats how i view it. there must be a higher purpose. and if that doesnt make us happy then why live in the first place? in that case life would be really absurd!

I think you are still making pleasure or happiness the top priority in your life, and from that you expect God should somehow reciprocate. Again things like virtues, truth and justice are higher priorities than our personal happiness. God wants you to be happy yes, but I think His idea of happiness is very different to our expectations of what we think would make us happy. If happiness is at the end of day all we are after then we have to be very careful that we don't live life waiting for the blessings God's promises us and stop focusing on the one blessing us.
Another problem with happiness as the priority is that some things here on earth that make us happy are not of God's kingdom. Some people find pleasure when raping someone and some people kill other people for pleasure. Some find happiness in money and would do almost anything for it. I think God wants us to be happy in His way of happiness. If that means pain and suffering then so be it. Most atheists think this a morbid thought but they take it out of context. Mother Teresa said something very similar and a lot of people thought of her as a sadist because of it. A better explanation would be this; below is a remembrance comment at the beginning of a book I recently read…

“To the memory of Dr. Charles Smith, a mentor who prayed for his cancer to return if it would bring him closer to God. In the last year he found God in a measure he had never known before. And then he died - of cancer.”

Curious... why do you think we won't remember this current life? Do you think God is going to erase our memories or something like that?

Hm ya heard that many times. and why would we keep them? i mean - a different world, etc. I think it even mentions in the Bible that. And i dont think that the memories we had, flawed as they were, and bad as they were, relative to heaven, is going to be something that will determine us eternally - what kind of stuff we will know. all will be forgotten, even who was our friend, sibling, etc - no gender in heaven etc. All a new world. a perfect one.[/quote]
I think I touched on this in regards to memory not being limited to the brain. Interesting thoughts though. Something else to look forward to when we get there eh!
If you can find the Bible verses you think relate to this subject, please share them with me. I am very intrigued.

But thanks a lot for the effort taken to answer those questions that were in my mind !!

No the pleasure was all mine. It's fun to think about. I find pleasure or happiness in these discussions one might say.


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[Beth]

OK, here I go. I am an partially uneducated (still in college) young person. Logic sometimes comes from what I have in the palm of my hand. I think that man's translation of the Bible has been twisted and turned to general use of the public. It has been abused in so many words. Not sayin' it doesn't have a whole lot truth in it but I believe God is so much more than written words. I have a hard time going to church and being around people at church and sitting there listening to other's translations. What I want is plain easy simple truth. Break it down, I believe in God, I believe only in him (and his son), my heart tells me not to listen to other's around me trying to analyze God when they have no idea. I have no idea. God is so much bigger and not because the Bible tells me so, because I know in my minds eye there is so much more to life, the world, and the universe than humans analyzing something that they CAN NOT logically understand. So I give my self up, humble myself and logically realize I am not capable of the logic that God is.
Turn my face to the heavens and feel myself being lift to a new understanding. I am who I am, you can not logically ever understand why a person is who they are or believe what they do, you can write a thesis and conceive theories but that is all they are. I understand science and am fascinated with it's ins and outs.
But I know there is more, I just know. Not logical to others but logical to me. Maybe it comes from the essence of human nature to want there to be more which is why we have come so far in technology. But perhaps, the reason we keep going and producing and inventing is because we know there is more. Hope I made sense. Somethings that sound right in your head make no sense to others. All I can do is give my in put and see what comes of it.

[Jad]

OK, here I go. I am an partially uneducated (still in college) young person. Logic sometimes comes from what I have in the palm of my hand. I think that man's translation of the Bible has been twisted and turned to general use of the public. It has been abused in so many words. Not sayin' it doesn't have a whole lot truth in it but I believe God is so much more than written words. I have a hard time going to church and being around people at church and sitting there listening to other's translations. What I want is plain easy simple truth. Break it down, I believe in God, I believe only in him (and his son), my heart tells me not to listen to other's around me trying to analyze God when they have no idea. I have no idea. God is so much bigger and not because the Bible tells me so, because I know in my minds eye there is so much more to life, the world, and the universe than humans analyzing something that they CAN NOT logically understand. So I give my self up, humble myself and logically realize I am not capable of the logic that God is.
Turn my face to the heavens and feel myself being lift to a new understanding. I am who I am, you can not logically ever understand why a person is who they are or believe what they do, you can write a thesis and conceive theories but that is all they are. I understand science and am fascinated with it's ins and outs.
But I know there is more, I just know. Not logical to others but logical to me. Maybe it comes from the essence of human nature to want there to be more which is why we have come so far in technology. But perhaps, the reason we keep going and producing and inventing is because we know there is more. Hope I made sense. Somethings that sound right in your head make no sense to others. All I can do is give my in put and see what comes of it.

Hi Beth,

Thanks for your input I think it is very important what you said. I think it shows how diverse and unique each individual person is in their character, personality and mindset. Some of us are like you in acknowledging we will never fully understand or know God fully while on this earth. I think we must all accept that really. Some may accept that and simply move on from that, God willing. But some may, after acknowledging that fact continue to think through the the details, God willing. I know some friends that walk into church every Sunday with not a care in the world about how God does things logically yet I know plenty of other friends that feel like they would be leaving their brains at the door before entering Church if they thought that way. I think either way is a wonderful way to worship God because we all think in different ways. I am one that thinks analytically and philosophically but my wife finds that way of thinking really boring and mundane lol. Yet we both end up in Church every Sunday worshiping the same God. How cool is that!

As far as the translation of the Bible goes you need to know that every major translation of the Bible is not just a translation of a translation of a translation etc. It is written from one translation, the original Greek and Hebrew texts. These are practically unchanged. It's only the interpretations of these original texts that I think you would have a problem with. I don't much like reading 'The Message' as I feel it is only one man's poetic interpretation of the original texts. It might relate to some but not to others. It is a paraphrase though so I don't worry about it too much.
The original texts however are pretty much the most accurate texts in all of history. They make other ancient texts look embarrassing in comparison to the accuracy of the Bible. We take Aristotle's writings for example as 'gospel' but the lack of reliable data for these writings compared with the historicity of say the Old Testament (which is much older than Aristotle) is not very good at all. The historicity of the New Testament is even more accurate again.
I encourage you to have a browse on this web site alone and you'll find some wonderful evidences for the historical accuracy of the Bible and it's original texts.

Thanks again.
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[FFC]

As far as the translation of the Bible goes you need to know that every major translation of the Bible is not just a translation of a translation of a translation etc. It is written from one translation, the original Greek and Hebrew texts. These are practically unchanged. It's only the interpretations of these original texts that I think you would have a problem with. I don't much like reading 'The Message' as I feel it is only one man's poetic interpretation of the original texts. It might relate to some but not to others. It is a paraphrase though so I don't worry about it too much.
The original texts however are pretty much the most accurate texts in all of history. They make other ancient texts look embarrassing in comparison to the accuracy of the Bible. We take Aristotle's writings for example as 'gospel' but the lack of reliable data for these writings compared with the historicity of say the Old Testament (which is much older than Aristotle) is not very good at all. The historicity of the New Testament is even more accurate again.
I encourage you to have a browse on this web site alone and you'll find some wonderful evidences for the historical accuracy of the Bible and it's original texts.

Thank you, Jad.

[madscientist]

The opposite of Love, is Non-Love, not Hate. I might not love cats but that doesn't mean I Hate them. I'm a dog 'person' hehe. I don't love Paris Hilton but I don't hate her either. I think we can love something or someone without having the prerequisite to Hate them if that love is not there. So you are correct about love and non-love; but non-love does not necessarily mean hate. That's true free will I think. If we only had the choice to love or hate something or someone, and nothing in between, I don't think we could call that free will. Or it might still be free will, just not a very good one.

hmm well thought quite differently of it tho. that not a choice of love and hate only but only love. that we'd have no notion of evil but good only. and love. not non-love or hate or something like that. well what i think that non-love is neutral. i show non-love to those i dont know, unknown things etc. indifference? nor one nor another. but then hate is the opposite i'd say. or non-love. well i always make my scale . its crazy but always - when i was small - about things. 0 was neutral, then negative was hate towards it, and positive was liking it. same with friendship and other things.
so what i was sayin that if we only knew love - like in heaven for example and would have no notion of "rejecting God and love" then free will - quite restricted in a very important area. yes we could decide left or right, yes or no, mountain or plain, small or big etc. But we would be kinda brainwashed into the inability of expressing non-love, as you call it, or hate towards something.

Haha good point. I read recently about a great scientific find; that our memory is not limited to our brain but is spread right throughout the body, including the heart! So I think our new bodies that we receive in the new heaven and earth will be physical as well and it will be a new place to store all our memories in. Our hormones and stuff like that is an interesting question. I think we won't need them anymore but I don't think the memory of them will go away with them. As my brother and I always say about heaven, I hope in heaven we can replay all the times we played pranks on our friends just so we can see the reactions on their faces again... and again and again and again.
I also think the memories we hold now, good or bad, play a part in the person and character that we are today. We learn so much when we struggle through pain and suffering. I don't think these character building memories will go away. We will have no need for them any longer in the the new heaven but don't think God will delete them as such.

really? crazy stuff.OK i think i jus read somewhre mabe even in this forum that we wont have memories. ya when i was small i also thought that yes we will have the nice ones and we will "replay" our beautiful souvenirs, our lives. infintely number of times!!! is that the "eternity"? we could do it forever, play moments in our minds. if we were to replay each person's life. what a lot of time that would take!!
or that they would be modified, "cheated" sort of that all the evil would come up as good or wouldnt appear. hm but still believe we wont remember much. maybe the basis, but not details. and how we looked like. after all - we're still all imperfect beings - so do we want have a rememberance of it? people say "you'll take your souvenirs with you to hell/heaven" but thats just a metaphor or soem sort of literary device.
and isnt heaven a "feeling" or vision, illusion, virtual world rather than a real, physical, materialistic world? well thats the hard debate and remember this world could be just the same "illusion, virtual thing"!! blows my mind.

This is off topic but have you ever thought how God would have come up with the concept of Time and Space where there was no space and time in existence? It blows my mind. What a great God we serve!

Hm that was Big Bang wasnt it? well - time is abstract i'd say. what is time? will heaven have a time?

I think you are still making pleasure or happiness the top priority in your life, and from that you expect God should somehow reciprocate. Again things like virtues, truth and justice are higher priorities than our personal happiness. God wants you to be happy yes, but I think His idea of happiness is very different to our expectations of what we think would make us happy. If happiness is at the end of day all we are after then we have to be very careful that we don't live life waiting for the blessings God's promises us and stop focusing on the one blessing us.
Another problem with happiness as the priority is that some things here on earth that make us happy are not of God's kingdom. Some people find pleasure when raping someone and some people kill other people for pleasure. Some find happiness in money and would do almost anything for it. I think God wants us to be happy in His way of happiness. If that means pain and suffering then so be it. Most atheists think this a morbid thought but they take it out of context. Mother Teresa said something very similar and a lot of people thought of her as a sadist because of it. A better explanation would be this; below is a remembrance comment at the beginning of a book I recently read…

“To the memory of Dr. Charles Smith, a mentor who prayed for his cancer to return if it would bring him closer to God. In the last year he found God in a measure he had never known before. And then he died - of cancer.”

hmm. agree wih what you're sayin but heh a little misunderstanding. pleasure - as of our eternal life. of course - yes, so it is not at the expense of others. so no killing raping etc. what i mean is that the "ultimate" purpose of this life, meaning life as from earth to eternity is that man "enjoys his fellowship with the Lord". Yes - has happiness etc. if everything were done superficially - what purpose? if we lived to work and worked to live - absurd life; why not commit suicide? and if there were no afterlife of course. however there must be more than just our duties. dont think we'll have to work in heaven, study, go to school, go on study courses, make job interviews and other lots of stressful situations for... whats their purpose, anyway? current life. Once we die no-one is gonna care what we did, where we worked etc. some deep philosophical thoughts though...
and the cancer thing - irony. and yes there was some website i visited some time ago; it was some young girl who also had something like that and died after accepting Christ. ironic i thoght. crazy. mindblowing.

But thanks a lot for the effort taken to answer those questions that were in my mind !!

No the pleasure was all mine. It's fun to think about. I find pleasure or happiness in these discussions one might say.
-[/quote]
Hm ya thanks anyway. it does, but sometimes the process of thinking, writing it down etc. and editing with "quote" things to make it nice... and reading all the replies when one is tired - ahh... but then when the post is done - a cool feeling at times - i got there what i meant to say
OK God bless.

[Jad]

hmm. agree wih what you're sayin but heh a little misunderstanding. pleasure - as of our eternal life. of course - yes, so it is not at the expense of others. so no killing raping etc. what i mean is that the "ultimate" purpose of this life, meaning life as from earth to eternity is that man "enjoys his fellowship with the Lord". Yes - has happiness etc. if everything were done superficially - what purpose? if we lived to work and worked to live - absurd life; why not commit suicide? and if there were no afterlife of course. however there must be more than just our duties. dont think we'll have to work in heaven, study, go to school, go on study courses, make job interviews and other lots of stressful situations for... whats their purpose, anyway? current life. Once we die no-one is gonna care what we did, where we worked etc. some deep philosophical thoughts though...
and the cancer thing - irony. and yes there was some website i visited some time ago; it was some young girl who also had something like that and died after accepting Christ. ironic i thoght. crazy. mindblowing.

I was recently thinking about your comments on this area of happiness and was wondering if I could explain it any better. Not that your response was in error though; I think we are both in agreement for the most part, we are merely explaining the same thing in different ways I think. I recently read an interview with Larry Crabb, an author and Christian psychologist who I think explains all this very well. So I thought I'd share it with you...

"Biblical sufficiency to me is to assume that the Bible contains everything you need to know to glorify God in this world, and that's the summum bonum, the greatest good. The greatest good is not that I feel wonderful, and have great self-esteem, and not even that I have a great marriage, have wonderful kids and make a lot of money… that's the goods that all of us are living for, but that's wrong. The greatest good in life is to glorify God, and—I'm a John Piper fan—the greatest good in life is to glorify God, not “and enjoy him forever,” but “by enjoying him forever.” So if in fact the greatest good is to glorify God — that's the whole reason for everything He created."

I love the distinction between “and enjoy him forever” and “by enjoying him forever.” I think that sums it up pretty good don't you think? One of the life changing books I've read which goes into great detail on this very subject is actually Larry Crabb's book 'The Pressure's Off'. If you've not read it I'd highly recommend it. It basically tells how we all still live the old way in a lot of areas in our life (using the law of linearity) and using it in our new walk with Christ. We live to obey the rules in order to get the blessings (happiness) we want. God becomes a vending machine. We insert the proper change and reach into the tray to get the sweet blessings we want.

"So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world.
But now that you know God - or rather are known by God - how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" - Galatians 4:3,9

We get sucked into this old way so easily. It clouds our judgment on what the new way actually is. "Have we have created a religious version of the Old Way to live? Have sincere followers of Christ been traveling along the old path thinking they were walking the new?"

"So a previous physical regulation and command is canceled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness -
For the Law never made anything perfect - but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God." - Hebrews 7:18-19 (Amplified Bible)

[madscientist]

"The greatest good in life is to glorify God, and—I'm a John Piper fan—the greatest good in life is to glorify God, not “and enjoy him forever,” but “by enjoying him forever.” So if in fact the greatest good is to glorify God — that's the whole reason for everything He created."

I love the distinction between “and enjoy him forever” and “by enjoying him forever.” I think that sums it up pretty good don't you think?

Well... so does it say, simply said, that we should not glorify Him and then enjoy separately but that "we should find enjoyment in doing so"? if yes then wow how nice!! if not then what a bunch of other complicated theory and philosophy behind it. OK yes that's what I sorta thought - enjoy this life by doing something. In a pure and godly way. So if we do things in our life, pray, have children, go to nature, see movies, admire the universe, etc, etc, and then we think "thank God for this" then does this sum up the glorification? We have fun in the thing, and then we enjoy it secondly due to the fact that it's something God gave us. How nice if it all were that simple

As for the old ways and new ways of living - what exactly you mean? that we should forget the old ways and live by new ways?

I hope my questions arent too hard to anwer this time Jad!

[Jad]

I'll do my best to attempt to answer your hard questions, yet again.

Well... so does it say, simply said, that we should not glorify Him and then enjoy separately but that "we should find enjoyment in doing so"? if yes then wow how nice!! if not then what a bunch of other complicated theory and philosophy behind it. OK yes that's what I sorta thought - enjoy this life by doing something. In a pure and godly way. So if we do things in our life, pray, have children, go to nature, see movies, admire the universe, etc, etc, and then we think "thank God for this" then does this sum up the glorification? We have fun in the thing, and then we enjoy it secondly due to the fact that it's something God gave us. How nice if it all were that simple

Ok I'm not saying don't enjoy having children, admiring nature, movies, cosmology etc. These are all good things and are here for us to enjoy. I love my dog. I enjoy his company and I praise God for creating dogs. They are awesome fun-loving creatures. Well mine is lol. What I'm saying is there is a greater joy or an ultimate happiness and that is far greater than all created things.
But there are also great trials and tribulations that come with enjoying God, while here on earth. The disciples are a great testament to that. But if we focus on the joy and happiness here on earth, in created things, and then it all gets taken away (like they did with Job), what happens to our happiness? I think that is what Larry Crabb is trying to say here with the distinction between “and enjoy him forever” and “by enjoying him forever.” The 'AND enjoy him forever' has some sort of prerequisite. I must do something first AND THEN enjoy him forever. It then becomes a 'works' based thing. But if it is BY enjoying Him forever then there is no prerequisite. Enjoying God IS the premise. That BY enjoying him forever all happiness and joy comes from that premise as an aftermath. So if we live BY enjoying him forever then anything that comes after that, be it pain and suffering or joy and peace, the premise is what we come back too in order to get through this life on earth. We then don't fall away from God because of the pain and suffering we endure for Him, and we aren't lured away from God by the good things that are on this earth that may deter us from him. If we did then these good and joyful things then become idols (our children, nature, movies, cosmology) because we rely on them for our joy, peace and happiness above God to get us through this life.

As for the old ways and new ways of living - what exactly you mean? that we should forget the old ways and live by new ways?

No not at all. Basically living the old way is like this; do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not murder, do not blaspheme etc. and you will prosper and find happiness and joy and the good life.

"Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may deal wisely and prosper in all that you do." - Deuteronomy 29:9

The new way is through Jesus (God) Himself. So instead of 'do not commit adultery', 'do not steal', 'do not murder', 'do not blaspheme' etc. it is now 'Through Christ I do not want to commit adultery, I don't want to steal, I don't want to commit murder' etc. The law is still there but under a new covenant; Jesus Christ.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." - Matthew 5:17-18

I hope all this makes sense to you. Either way it is always a pleasure thinking through these things with you. I've just finished posting stuff on an atheist blog filled with ridicule and mockery of me and my Lord so it's nice to have a civilized conversation with someone once in a while hehe.

In Christ
Jad

[madscientist]

OK so are you saying we shouldnt enjoy things down here - not to a large extent? And why would we get lured by the good things here? If we still put God on the 1st place... and accept He is the ultimate Creator of everything - can we "love" those earthly things? I mean, heaven will be perfect. If we do all and glorify Him "by enjoying Him forever" - is it good, sufficient?

As for the old and new way of living - the only difference is that we do it with Christ? Old - without Him, new with Him? and what difference does it make in commandments - that we believe in Him whilst doing these things?

I hope all this makes sense to you. Either way it is always a pleasure thinking through these things with you. I've just finished posting stuff on an atheist blog filled with ridicule and mockery of me and my Lord so it's nice to have a civilized conversation with someone once in a while hehe.

Hmm thanks that sounds nice. Yeah it can be a pain arguing with atheists on the topic of God. yah thanks also ha my questions are hard at times. And some have no answer!!
In Christ.

[jenna]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post and so i'll try to make it count. I run a similiar forum (http://www.nonConforums.com), and so am always interested in when i hear about other forums. I've always been fascinated in why people believe more than what they believe.

I am wondering if any of you believe that you can prove that God exists using only logic and reason? If yes, why? If no, why not?

Thanks.

Yes it CAN be proven that God exists using only logic and reason. First of all, look at everything that exists in the world today, as far as living creatures and plants. Is it truly logical to think that we "evolved"? If we did, then it is only logical that there would still be creatures still in the middle of evolution. Since there aren't, this way of thinking is illogical. Others believe in the "big bang" theory. If this were true, then the entire universe came into existance from a "big bang". Applyig logic and reason, this is impossible because something would have been created from nothing. Look at how wonderfully everything was created, and how everything "works" together, from all aspects. From the sun being in just the right distance, to how animals interact with one another, all LOGICAL conclusions are that we were created.

[B. W.]

Hello Everyone, This is my first post and so i'll try to make it count. I run a similiar forum (http://www.nonConforums.com), and so am always interested in when i hear about other forums. I've always been fascinated in why people believe more than what they believe.I am wondering if any of you believe that you can prove that God exists using only logic and reason? If yes, why? If no, why not? Thanks.

Yes it CAN be proven that God exists using only logic and reason. First of all, look at everything that exists in the world today, as far as living creatures and plants. Is it truly logical to think that we "evolved"? If we did, then it is only logical that there would still be creatures still in the middle of evolution. Since there aren't, this way of thinking is illogical. Others believe in the "big bang" theory. If this were true, then the entire universe came into existance from a "big bang". Applyig logic and reason, this is impossible because something would have been created from nothing. Look at how wonderfully everything was created, and how everything "works" together, from all aspects. From the sun being in just the right distance, to how animals interact with one another, all LOGICAL conclusions are that we were created.

Amen..
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