The Fall of Man

[zoegirl]

By the way,

you should read CS Lewis's Perelandra. IT addresses this problem....Very good read, very powerful.

[Otisblues]

Somehow I doubt that they were unaware of sex and reproduction. Earlier in the creation account, God tells them to "be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 1:28). Something tells me this did not mean "eat the stuff on the trees and do math equations".


This is an excellent point. God does tell them this before the Fall; however, there is no mention or suggestion that they had children before Cain after the Fall. There is simply not enough information on this subject to speculate further.


At what point can we use this excuse? "We never had a chance" Can pedophiles around children use this excuse? Can rapists use this excuse. "Well, she just tempted me beyond bearing" Can thieves use this excuse? Can we use this excuse? To be mean? To cheat on our spouses? "Well, gee, honey, she was just too sexy, I didn't have a chance..." To lie? To think mean thoughtS? To think lustful thoughts? At what point do we get a free pass. FROM a righteous and just God? Who we defied?

God is at fault? We have no guilt?

This is also an excellent point. I agree with you that Adam and Eve were guilty. They had free choice and they chose to eat the fruit. I have never said they were not guilty of breaking the one run God gave them.

I do think the flaw in your argument relates to the situation with which one finds them. If you purposely placed a pedophile in a room with a young child and then left them alone for an indefinite period of time, would you not be guilty? If you added Satan urging the pedophile to act upon his deviant sexual impulses it is obvious what would happen. If you took an alcoholic to a bar and offered him a drink, you would be in the wrong. Again, if you added Satan to the equation, the alcoholic could choose not to drink but likely would fall off the wagon. There are numerous other possible analogies but I think I have made my point.


Who should want a mud pie when a banquet awaits them....every day?!?!?

I don't think Adam and Eve would have wanted a mud pie if they thought it was a mud pie. I think they wanted to be like their creator, God. Satan told them that they would be wise like God and Eve believed him. Who doesn't want to be wise?


Again, I really appreciate your responses. It really is making me think.

Thanks again.

[Enigma7457]

I do think the flaw in your argument relates to the situation with which one finds them. If you purposely placed a pedophile in a room with a young child and then left them alone for an indefinite period of time, would you not be guilty? If you added Satan urging the pedophile to act upon his deviant sexual impulses it is obvious what would happen. If you took an alcoholic to a bar and offered him a drink, you would be in the wrong. Again, if you added Satan to the equation, the alcoholic could choose not to drink but likely would fall off the wagon. There are numerous other possible analogies but I think I have made my point.

I can see your point, which is actually a pretty good one. Only one problem that i see: God was there, too. If i took a christian (or anyone who has a relationship with god) who happened to be a pedophile, and then put him in a room full of children. Then, added Satan, like you say. But only this time, i add God as well. (I do believe in Genesis it talks of Adam walking with God in the garden, but i haven't read it in a long time). Now, the christian pedophile has God to fall back on. It is now his choice and his responsibility as to who he is to trust and how he makes his decisions.

Likewise, Adam and eve also had God in the garden. They were not abandoned to the forbiden fruit and the tempting of Satan, they had the most powerful protector ever there with them. All they had to do was ask for help.

Also, look at their responses when confronted by god. Eve blames the snake and Adam says "the woman you put here with me," essentially blaming God.

I think Adam and Eve had more than a fair chance, and they blew it (i would have blown it, too, just for the record).

[Otisblues]

Only one problem that i see: God was there, too

I agree that God was in the garden at times but we don't know from the story the exact type of relationship they had with him. The God of the Old Testament certainly had a range of emotions attributed to him. I personally believe you can not attribute any trait to God because he is soooo beyond our conceptual abilities. About the only thing you can do is to say what he is not. So, I would guess there was a certain amount of fear or let's say awe when they were in a situation with God. It is unclear whether he appeared in a physical form but this seems unlikely since Jesus is the physical aspect of God. Adam and Eve had no experience with any other creature that could communicate except for the serpent. Of course, the story does not say whether any of the other animals could speak as did the serpent. I would suggest they made have been afraid to ask God such questions of "Why can't we eat the fruit?" I wonder what God's reaction would have been to such a question. As the story goes he certainly was angry over their action and not at all forgiving. In the story he even act surprised even though I would think he knew the serpent was in the garden working toward persuading them to eat the fruit.

If the pedophile was in a room with a child with Satan and God, (say a policeman) then yes, I think there would be a much better chance the pedophile would not act. However, in the story it appears God was not always present whether in a physical form or not, so there was ample time for them to be alone and thus, tempted by Satan. In other words even if God (or a Policeman) was in the same building but not in the same room I could hear Satan telling the pedophile all kinds of things that likely would be successful in exciting his deviancy and thus, his choice to act upon these impulses. Also, if the child was especially beautiful, as was likely the tree and its fruit, then even more motivation for the pedohile to act upon his impulses and in my argument set him up to fail.

And I think that Adam had a good point. In a court of law the pedophile would be found guilty. But the person who allowed his child to be in the room with the pedophile with full knowledge of the potential danger in this arrangement would also be convicted of at least endangerment of a junville or so other such law.

Again, thanks for your comments.

[zoegirl]

Only one problem that i see: God was there, too

I agree that God was in the garden at times but we don't know from the story the exact type of relationship they had with him. The God of the Old Testament certainly had a range of emotions attributed to him. I personally believe you can not attribute any trait to God because he is soooo beyond our conceptual abilities. About the only thing you can do is to say what he is not. So, I would guess there was a certain amount of fear or let's say awe when they were in a situation with God. It is unclear whether he appeared in a physical form but this seems unlikely since Jesus is the physical aspect of God. Adam and Eve had no experience with any other creature that could communicate except for the serpent. Of course, the story does not say whether any of the other animals could speak as did the serpent. I would suggest they made have been afraid to ask God such questions of "Why can't we eat the fruit?" I wonder what God's reaction would have been to such a question. As the story goes he certainly was angry over their action and not at all forgiving. In the story he even act surprised even though I would think he knew the serpent was in the garden working toward persuading them to eat the fruit.

If the pedophile was in a room with a child with Satan and God, (say a policeman) then yes, I think there would be a much better chance the pedophile would not act. However, in the story it appears God was not always present whether in a physical form or not, so there was ample time for them to be alone and thus, tempted by Satan. In other words even if God (or a Policeman) was in the same building but not in the same room I could hear Satan telling the pedophile all kinds of things that likely would be successful in exciting his deviancy and thus, his choice to act upon these impulses. Also, if the child was especially beautiful, as was likely the tree and its fruit, then even more motivation for the pedohile to act upon his impulses and in my argument set him up to fail.

And I think that Adam had a good point. In a court of law the pedophile would be found guilty. But the person who allowed his child to be in the room with the pedophile with full knowledge of the potential danger in this arrangement would also be convicted of at least endangerment of a junville or so other such law.

Again, thanks for your comments.

I am not debating that SAtan was guilty. I think it is clear from scripture that he is damned as well and choose first to rebel against God. Not debating this.

However, this does not take away our guilt in NOT TRUSTING GOD and PUTTING OURSELVES EQUAL TO GOD. If a parent tells a child not to touch that hot stove and (here is where the analogy breaks down, obviously we are talking about a sovereign and righteous God) in this analogy the parent has clearly established his trustworthiness in the relationship, then the child is guilty if he/she listens to another person telling him that the stove is not hot and that the parent is deceiving him/her. By not trusting God and wanting to "be like God" we sinned, whether there was another agent at work or not. Ultimately the decision was ours to make and the consequence ours. WE could have trusted God and understood His place and our place and instead we decided to trust a serpent?!?

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, 'You [1] shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, [2] she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool [3] of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” [4]

We know that they walked with God in the garden and that the fact that Adam hid from God was unusual. I think it speaks highly of a relationship with great intimacy. Adam and eve had a relationship with God and each other that was unparalleled and incomparable to any relationship we could have with any person.

Also, while I agree that the NATURE of God is inconceivable and that we really can't understand HIs essence and being, His character and traits are clear from scripture. God is just, righteous, loving, compassionate, merciful...Not sure what your point here is in relation to the fall. Is God to be blamed somehow for not being there? And when He is? Are we not allowed to make that choice? Was God not allowed to give us free reign to worship Him?

[Otisblues]

However, this does not take away our guilt in NOT TRUSTING GOD and PUTTING OURSELVES EQUAL TO GOD.

I am simply saying the way the story goes God created a situation with the odds heavily in favor of man failing. I do agree man failed, thus the Fall. He was guilty of eating the fruit. But there were many extinuating circumstances that it seems everyone is ignoring. I think if the case was taken to court with all parties involved Adam and Eve would still go to jail but for a lesser crime since there were so many extinuating circumstances.

For example, there is no information on whether or not God warned Adam and Eve that the serpent was evil. Remember, they did not have a concept of evil until they ate the fruit. Verse 2-17 "but of the tree of the knowedge of good and evil" so it would appear before they ate of the fruit they had no conception of good or evil. I guess it would have made no difference if God did warned them it would have been meaningless to them. So, if you do not know what evil is you will not intentionally commit an evil act because you don't know what an evil act is. I don't really understand how someone can not know the difference but this is the story.

Also, there can be case made for Adam and Eve wanting to be more like God because of their love for him. Just as a child wants to be like their parents. Most children will attempt to immulate their parents actions. The serpent knew exactly what to say to appeal to this rather positive trait in Adam and Eve.

So, they did not know the serpent was evil giving them bad advice. They did know it was contrary to what God had told them but maybe they had also developed a very close personal relationship with the serphent and he gained their trust. He likely could have given them all kinds of information that they would find helpful. Afterall, he was Satan a super intelligence creature.

And yes, God does have some responsible in this matter. He created them and the situation that resulted in the Fall. If I created a free willed android and he kills someone. I will stand trial for it. Utimately, the creator will be responsible for his creation. If the creators of the atomic bomb had not created it then it would not exist (knowling someone else would have eventually). For if he had not created the creation then the ramifications of the creation would be nil.



We know that they walked with God in the garden and that the fact that Adam hid from God was unusual. I think it speaks highly of a relationship with great intimacy. Adam and eve had a relationship with God and each other that was unparalleled and incomparable to any relationship we could have with any person.

Of course he hid from God. He now knew what evil was. He could now calculate his transgression. There could be made a good argument that if you don't know what good and evil is, how will you know how to make a choice. How could you know the serpent was telling you something evil. He made it sound like very good advice.

Again, yes, man was guilty, no question of that but I don't understand why you are so hard on him and do not take into acount all of these extinuating circumstance that he had to face.


This is a little off topic but it would be interesting to know what form God took. If he did "walk" in the garden then he must have had legs. Was the Jesus the second time he came to earth as a human. Obviously, he did not have to go through the birth process but still it would appear he created some type of physical body.

[zoegirl]

Again, yes, man was guilty, no question of that but I don't understand why you are so hard on him and do not take into acount all of these extinuating circumstance that he had to face.

First, how would the consequence of sin be any different from these so-called extenuating circumstances? "For the wages of sin is death" not "The wages of sin is death, except, well gee, you guys were REALLY REALLY tempted, so I guess you won't die.,..." How should I "take into account" these extenuating circumstances? Is our account any less damaging in God's eyes for saying "Well, gee, God if only you didn't put the serpent here with me...." "Well, gee, God, if only you didn't put that woman here with me..."

Wait...! They actually used these excuses!!! And you know? God said in essence....you can't blame them....you did it. And eveybody got that justice, including the serpent....

Usually mitigating and extenuating circumstances are used to temper the consequences meted out to the criminal. "You killed your husband but he was beating you for the last ten years and was beating you to death, so instead of X years in jail you get Y years"

So how do these so-called extenuating circumstances change the consequences? Either God's consequence is just and we warrant death, or his consequesence is too tough and He is not just.....which is it?

God is a just God....HE is God....we doubted His provision....we believed the serpent over God....We were given ample evidence for God's trustworthiness and we believed the serpent's statement that we would not die....we believed the serpent....we doubted God....we doubted the almighty creator of the universe....we placed our desire for wisdom in our hands instead of walking with God. We essentially stated to God..."we don't believe you, we believe our own wisdom and our wisdom says that You are not the one to go to....we are..."


Yeah, God's word is hard on us....but that just points to how sweet and amazing His grace is.



And what, then, is God's responsibility? Is He bound to excuse us? His justice requires consequence.

[Otisblues]

Yeah, God's word is hard on us....but that just points to how sweet and amazing His grace is.

According to this story God is just hard on us. Where is the grace in this story? Where is the love? Where is the justice? A just God would have taken all these extenuating circumstances that he appeared to create to set man up to fall, I know a parent would. A just God would not put Man in the middle of a fight he was having with Satan where He had no chance against two super entities. You make light of the extenuating circumstances but they were very real and in my opinion very unfair. It could be compared to a child is a home where one abusive parent who uses the child to get back at their spouse. The child has no chance.

(I might bring up Job at this point since he did stick with God even though God put him through very bad things in God's game with Satan, but Job is not part of this stroy. And this would bring up a host of argument in how unfair it was for God to put Job in a extreme position due to God's wager with Satan.)

Thanks again for the input. Your arguments are very good.

[Enigma7457]

And yes, God does have some responsible in this matter. He created them and the situation that resulted in the Fall. If I created a free willed android and he kills someone. I will stand trial for it. Utimately, the creator will be responsible for his creation. If the creators of the atomic bomb had not created it then it would not exist (knowling someone else would have eventually). For if he had not created the creation then the ramifications of the creation would be nil.

Lets think of the argument differently. You believe God set them up to fail (i know that's simplifying it, but just stick with me). Also, it was stated earlier that children learn better through their own experiences, that parents telling them "the stove is hot" isn't as educating as the kid touching the stove and getting burnt. Now, take this information into account with God. If we learn best by our own experiences, wouldn't have been in our favor to eat the fruit and learn? So, wouldn't it have been the best thing for God to do (set us up to fail), since that is the best way for us to learn?

So, even if God did set us up to fail, or set us up with a likelihood of failure, he had our best interests in mind, since we learn best this way.

[FFC]

And yes, God does have some responsible in this matter. He created them and the situation that resulted in the Fall. If I created a free willed android and he kills someone. I will stand trial for it. Utimately, the creator will be responsible for his creation. If the creators of the atomic bomb had not created it then it would not exist (knowling someone else would have eventually). For if he had not created the creation then the ramifications of the creation would be nil.

Lets think of the argument differently. You believe God set them up to fail (i know that's simplifying it, but just stick with me). Also, it was stated earlier that children learn better through their own experiences, that parents telling them "the stove is hot" isn't as educating as the kid touching the stove and getting burnt. Now, take this information into account with God. If we learn best by our own experiences, wouldn't have been in our favor to eat the fruit and learn? So, wouldn't it have been the best thing for God to do (set us up to fail), since that is the best way for us to learn?

So, even if God did set us up to fail, or set us up with a likelihood of failure, he had our best interests in mind, since we learn best this way.

It helps me to consider that even if it was God's plan for Adam and Eve to fall from grace in the garden, He still had a plan of redemption set in place from the foundation of the earth.

[zoegirl]

Yeah, God's word is hard on us....but that just points to how sweet and amazing His grace is.

According to this story God is just hard on us. Where is the grace in this story? Where is the love? Where is the justice? A just God would have taken all these extenuating circumstances that he appeared to create to set man up to fall, I know a parent would. A just God would not put Man in the middle of a fight he was having with Satan where He had no chance against two super entities. You make light of the extenuating circumstances but they were very real and in my opinion very unfair. It could be compared to a child is a home where one abusive parent who uses the child to get back at their spouse. The child has no chance.

(I might bring up Job at this point since he did stick with God even though God put him through very bad things in God's game with Satan, but Job is not part of this stroy. And this would bring up a host of argument in how unfair it was for God to put Job in a extreme position due to God's wager with Satan.)

Thanks again for the input. Your arguments are very good.

Um....the grace of GOd's own son dying for our transgressions? GOd had absolutely no obligation to excuse us for our behavior. We deserved death (you never answered my question....if God is perfectly just, then we deserve death, if God had sentenced us to death and yet undeservedly so, He is not perfectly just....which it is?) and there was no reason for HIm to excuse us. So we lived in sin and are in sin until we accept Christ's death as payment for our sins. Even in the Garden God had a plan set in motion

he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

And we have the foreshadowing of CHrist striking the blow to satan.


Also, you haven't answered my question....what should our punishement have been? HOw many chances should GOd have given us? Was satan even necessary for our fall? Would we have eventually led ourselves to the fall?

We sinned...GOd cannot have a relationhsip with sin....

YOu say I am making light of the extenuating circumstances....but scripture does not support you. Adam and Eve USED these very excuses to God..."Oh, if only you didn't put that serpent...." "THAT woman you put here with me....she made me do it" And God answered them....it is interesting to note that He said "you listened to her....." NOt because he shouldn't listen to Eve, but ADAM LISTENED TO HER INSTEAD OF GOD. God told them not to do something and then the serpent told them otherwise. They choose to listen to the serpent and it was a direct disobedience. And isn't this at the heart of the matter....every decision we make that leads us to sin, aren't we really listening to our own wisdom or to others instead of God?



Let's reiterate again with whom we are dealing....this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe here. Whatever situation we were in in the garden, WE DOUBTED HIM and decided we were more wise than Him.


As for Job

Then Job answered the LORD :

4 "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.

5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."

6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?

10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.

11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,

12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.

13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.

14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

Verse 8 is particularly compelling....would you condemn me to justify yourself.....Let's see...God...man...hmmm wonder who is more just and righteous. WE rationalize and defend our sin to the point of accusing God...

Again, it is only when we realize how much our sin offends God that we realize the enormity of His sweet and powerful grace given to us through Christ.

The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Praise God

[Otisblues]

Verse 8 is particularly compelling....would you condemn me to justify yourself.....Let's see...God...man...hmmm wonder who is more just and righteous. WE rationalize and defend our sin to the point of accusing God...

Again, it is only when we realize how much our sin offends God that we realize the enormity of His sweet and powerful grace given to us through Christ.

This is one of the reasons I consider the story itself to be rather ridiculous as a literal happening rather than an analogy. I do believe that the creator of the universe is a just God and loving, forgiving God. As a result from my definition of justice there was no justice in the plot of this story. If one believes this story literally then they have to conclude this God was a vindicative creator who set up a situation so that he could condemn his creation. I could not guess such a God's reasoning for this action. Maybe this God (not the God I worship) was like some of the Greek Gods who enjoyed watching humans suffer.

What should the punishment be? I compare this again to parent who loves his children. I think death and total condemnation fall far from a just punishment particulary since I continue to suggest this story's Creator set up a very unfair set of circumstances. This does not sound like a just God. If I have to anwser such a question of punishment, it was be more of rehabilation type sentence. It would include God educating and counseling Adam and Eve about the overall situation. Now that they had the knowledge of good and evil they would the ability to understand and thus, would be more responsible for their actions. Remember, before they ate the fruit they had no knowledge of good and evil. They could not have known they acted in an evil manner until they ate the fruit. God could have worked with them to use this knowledge in a constructive manner. Instead, according to the story things just got worse and worse until this God purposely destroyed the human race other than just a few under Noah's care. As you can guess I do not believe the Noah story as a literal event.

If I took the story literally and applied my concept of justice (yes, I know I do not have a perfect knowledge of justice) I would not have banished them from the garden but sat down with them as a parent with a child. I would attempt to explain to them what had happen and in my love would have tried to work with them, to teach them a better way. In others words, I would have at the least given them a second chance. Any parent who loves their children would give a second, third, and many chances. It seems you are suggesting this God of this story did not even have as much love for his creation as a parent does for his child. Again, that is not the God I worship.

You also bring Jesus into this and I agree he is the example of life. His messages was one of forgiveness and love, even for one's enemies. The God of this story seems to have neither. I also would not be able to argue the possibilities of God's overall plan. I am simply not intelligence enough to even consider why he created the universe. If he, excuse the "he", was a perfect entity then he would have no need to create anything because he would have no needs. He would not be lonely, he would be totally complete in himself. So, I will not even attempt to address the fact that we were created and the reasons behind why this entity would have chosen to do so.

I would also agree that we as humans compared to such a being are nothing. There would be more difference between us and ants, which I have destroyed numerous ant kingdoms and felt no remorse, as between us and him. So I agree he does not owe us anything other than the fact he did create us and from what I hear everyone agreeing is he loves us. So if had created an ant kingdom and loved and cared for it, then destroyed it because an ant did what a ant does sting, I would likely have some schizophrenic tendencies.

As far as the story of Job goes that is another story of which I do not want to address at this time because there are many complex philosophical issues that arises from the story.

As I have said before, God created us the way we are so how could be surprised that we acted the way he created us to act. Yes, we have choices but we are human. All humans make mistakes, he created us that way and if you believe the story created a super evil being to make sure we make mistakes. The only perfect human was Jesus, but then again he was God in the flesh. God could have given us more of the attributes that allowed Jesus to always make the right choice. He did not so, so why would God be so offended by something that he created that was doomed to be offensive.

[zoegirl]

I just have one simple question then....If all we needed was instruction and gentle guidance by God....

Why send His son to die and conquer death by resurrection?

If all God needs to do is say "I'm really sorry I placed you in this situation...it's really partly my fault...I don't know what I was thinking...let me teach you how to behave morally and ethically and all about evil so you if you find yourself in this situation again you will know what not to do..."

Hey, sounds great....except for the fact that the rest of the bible essentially is the development and climax of this great resurrection event by God's own son....but hey...if there was no need for Christ to sacrifice Himself....if there was no atonement that was needed, then why atone? why sacrifice?

As for Job, all I'll say on the matter is that even if you believe it is simply an analogy does not take away from the message. Christ's parables were certainly not literal events, but the message is real enough. You cannot dismiss the meaning of the story simply because you believe it didn't happen.

What do you believe is the purpose of Christ's death on the cross?

[Otisblues]

These last points are very difficult and complex since you have jumped from the rather complex story of Adam and Eve, to the overall story of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. That is a very large thesis to develop and I don't know that I am capable of doing so; however, I will attempt to address some of your issues.

I think that it would have been an excellent experiment for God to have tried to give some loving instruction to Adam and Eve. I dare say with God's instructions the human race would have likely faired much better and maybe made it easier on God. Again, this is according to this fable. I think they would have likely responded well to his instructions and have rejected the serpent since they would now easily recognized the differences between the serpent's motives and God's motives. Afterall, as you pointed out they were likely very intelligence and insightful individuals.

As far as the purpose of Jesus, I believe that in the course of human development when we achieved self consciousness we developed our narcissistic nature. We all suffer from this trait and so Jesus, in the human form, was sent as an example to teach us a higher way of living, to give us loving instructions. He thus, did what the God of the story of Adam and Eve did not. Also, he gave us a way to relate directly to our loving God. We are sinful creatures due to the flaws in our nature from our original development and are not worthy of relating to a perfect entity. I believe that God created the universe, gave it a law of physics, and we are the result of the process that developed from these laws. Yes, I think the theory of evolution is so far the best theory on our and all other living things creation.

According the Augustine the greatest since of man is pride. This sinfulness developed I believe at the beginning when we were first able to identify ourself as ourself. Look at a baby, nothing exists but him or her, complete narcissism. He has to be socialized but even in the best home this is only partially successful. As much as I care for my spouse I have hurt her by my lack of caring at times. It seems so easy to do the wrong thing at times even when I know it is the wrong thing. It is our nature. It is our nature to hurt others, just look at any children's school yard how they will team up on someone who is different. I believe this sin is in our basic foundation. It is just the way we developed. I believe Jesus' message of love demonstrated a perfect love, a perfect selfless sacrifice, and perfect means of forgiveness.

Also, as I read the scriptures that they give no indication that any part of a human being survives death. When we die we are dead. Jesus' life, death, and particularly resurrection gave us a way out. He was the perfect sacrifice to make us acceptable to God and allow us to be resurrected as was he to a new perfect body if only we believe as per John 3-16. We are still just as sinful but there he is with his forgiveness that gives us the break I felt God should have given Adam and Eve.

If all God needs to do is say "I'm really sorry I placed you in this situation...it's really partly my fault...I don't know what I was thinking...let me teach you how to behave morally and ethically and all about evil so you if you find yourself in this situation again you will know what not to do..."

Now back to my original subject, this is why I have so much trouble with the story. I do not think a being capable of creating the universe would have done such a thing. I think that God is just and would not have acted unjust as I feel the story describes him.

BTW, You are really making me think, and I really enjoy that even if it gives me a headache.

[zoegirl]

These last points are very difficult and complex since you have jumped from the rather complex story of Adam and Eve, to the overall story of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. That is a very large thesis to develop and I don't know that I am capable of doing so; however, I will attempt to address some of your issues.

I think that it would have been an excellent experiment for God to have tried to give some loving instruction to Adam and Eve. I dare say with God's instructions the human race would have likely faired much better and maybe made it easier on God. Again, this is according to this fable. I think they would have likely responded well to his instructions and have rejected the serpent since they would now easily recognized the differences between the serpent's motives and God's motives. Afterall, as you pointed out they were likely very intelligence and insightful individuals.

1. Glad you know more than God....as facetious as that seems, it speaks a simple truth. You are stating now that God made a mistake and should not have done this.

2. According to this fable?! Scary....so the entirety of Christian doctrine, creation, fall, repentance, restoration rests on a fable.....why bother? If the doctrine of original sin cannot be trusted, why should anything else be trusted?

3. They would liekly respond well....The fallacy here is that they didn't trust God when they had the best of eveything. Why should they be any better at it (and again, if they can be better at it, why the need for a savior? )

As far as the purpose of Jesus, I believe that in the course of human development when we achieved self consciousness we developed our narcissistic nature. We all suffer from this trait and so Jesus, in the human form, was sent as an example to teach us a higher way of living, to give us loving instructions. He thus, did what the God of the story of Adam and Eve did not. Also, he gave us a way to relate directly to our loving God. We are sinful creatures due to the flaws in our nature from our original development and are not worthy of relating to a perfect entity. I believe that God created the universe, gave it a law of physics, and we are the result of the process that developed from these laws. Yes, I think the theory of evolution is so far the best theory on our and all other living things creation.

PLease provide the scripture you have in supporting this idea of Christ. What scripture are you using to support the idea that Christ was *merely* an example?

There are plenty of scripture supporting the idea that Christ was an atoning sacrifice. Atonement meant to pardon a sin, but in the Old Testament a blood sacrifice had to be made as a substitution for the Sins of the People. Throughout the prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament there are references to the Lamb needed for atonement. In the New Testament Christ is recognized and lauded as the "Lamb of God".

[ Jesus the Lamb of God ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:28-30

John 1:36
When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"
John 1:35-37

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-3

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:9-11

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Romans 3:24-26

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:16-18

Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
1 Corinthians 5:6-8

Ephesians 5:2
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Ephesians 5:1-3

Hebrews 9:26
Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:25-27

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 9:27-28

Hebrews 10:1
[ Christ's Sacrifice Once for All ] The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
Hebrews 10:1-3

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:9-11

And finally, the reason we needed the atonement

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
Romans 3:9-11

Do you disagree here? Was Christ not mean to be the spotless lamb to atone for our sins?

According the Augustine the greatest since of man is pride. This sinfulness developed I believe at the beginning when we were first able to identify ourself as ourself. Look at a baby, nothing exists but him or her, complete narcissism. He has to be socialized but even in the best home this is only partially successful. As much as I care for my spouse I have hurt her by my lack of caring at times. It seems so easy to do the wrong thing at times even when I know it is the wrong thing. It is our nature. It is our nature to hurt others, just look at any children's school yard how they will team up on someone who is different. I believe this sin is in our basic foundation. It is just the way we developed. I believe Jesus' message of love demonstrated a perfect love, a perfect selfless sacrifice, and perfect means of forgiveness.

I agree with you....HOWEVER, you say he was a sacrifice....BUT in your exmples previously we don't need an atonement for sin, we simply need to the "taught" and "rehabilitated". Again, if it is so simple and all we really needed was Christ's "example", why did He need to die? Why die? (It can't for our sins!! According to you, not only is God to blame for our sin, we can be rehabilated....God didn't need to send HIs son to die for our sins, He would have just needed to send His son to teach us and provide an example. )

Also, as I read the scriptures that they give no indication that any part of a human being survives death.

What are you saying here? Do you not believe that we are all destined to an eternal life? What scripture are you using here?

When we die we are dead. Jesus' life, death, and particularly resurrection gave us a way out. He was the perfect sacrifice to make us acceptable to God

Now wait a muinute!! Now you have contradicted yourself....why should we be made acceptable?!?!? What need is there to be made acceptable?!?!? IN your previous arguments, we are not only NOT to blame for our sins and therefore not guilty, but we are really not that bad. All we need is some guidance and teaching and God is OBLIGATED TO teach us and not hold us accountable for our sins. He must be held accountable for His actions in allowing us to fall. Again, atonement means to pardon our sins and yet you have already established that our sins were not that bad that needed atoning (they were certinaly not bad enough to warrant separation from God in your argument).

THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR AN ATONING SACRIFICE IF WE ARE NOT GUILTY OF SIN. You cannot have it both ways.

and allow us to be resurrected as was he to a new perfect body if only we believe as per John 3-16. We are still just as sinful but there he is with his forgiveness that gives us the break I felt God should have given Adam and Eve.

God doesn't "give us a break" He requires us to follow Him and accept Christ as the payment for our sins....but that means we confess our sins (agree that our sins require condmenation!!) There is no difference in God's justice in the garden and God's justice at the cross. Sin requires death, condemantion. But Christ's death at the cross satisfies God's justice for the payment of sin. God's justice was PAID for at the cross but it wasn't just "excused". We never just "get a break". The cost of sin is great, Christ's death. Let us never forget that while forgivenss is offered to us freely, it's cost can never be underestimated.

No, you feel there are extenuating circumstances that warrant us not being given a death sentence.

What should the punishment be? I compare this again to parent who loves his children. I think death and total condemnation fall far from a just punishment particulary since I continue to suggest this story's Creator set up a very unfair set of circumstances. This does not sound like a just God. If I have to anwser such a question of punishment, it was be more of rehabilation type sentence. It would include God educating and counseling Adam and Eve about the overall situation. Now that they had the knowledge of good and evil they would the ability to understand and thus, would be more responsible for their actions. Remember, before they ate the fruit they had no knowledge of good and evil. They could not have known they acted in an evil manner until they ate the fruit. God could have worked with them to use this knowledge in a constructive manner. Instead, according to the story things just got worse and worse until this God purposely destroyed the human race other than just a few under Noah's care. As you can guess I do not believe the Noah story as a literal event.

If I took the story literally and applied my concept of justice (yes, I know I do not have a perfect knowledge of justice) I would not have banished them from the garden but sat down with them as a parent with a child. I would attempt to explain to them what had happen and in my love would have tried to work with them, to teach them a better way. In others words, I would have at the least given them a second chance. Any parent who loves their children would give a second, third, and many chances. It seems you are suggesting this God of this story did not even have as much love for his creation as a parent does for his child. Again, that is not the God I worship.

Again, why the need for a sacrifice if we can learn to be righteous and trust God? If, as you say, our "original sin" is simply a genetic predispostion to selfishness and narcisiism, then it is simply a matter of good teaching and good examples. If we get rid of God's justice, then why do we need His mercy?

On the other hand....if Christ WAS an atoning sacrifice, then what is He an atonment for? You say He is the perfect sacrifice, but for what?

If all God needs to do is say "I'm really sorry I placed you in this situation...it's really partly my fault...I don't know what I was thinking...let me teach you how to behave morally and ethically and all about evil so you if you find yourself in this situation again you will know what not to do..."

Now back to my original subject, this is why I have so much trouble with the story. I do not think a being capable of creating the universe would have done such a thing. I think that God is just and would not have acted unjust as I feel the story describes him.

BTW, You are really making me think, and I really enjoy that even if it gives me a headache.

A Just and HOLY and Righteous God who establishes to His creation that HE IS GOD, HE IS HOLY, HE IS RIGHTEOUS, and HE IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP (and let's be very clear about this, worshipping this God mean ascribing His value to Him, meaning that Adam and Eve would have know that, of all things, God was to be trusted, God provided eveything they needed and anybody who says otherwise is deceiving and lying. Either Adam and Eve were VERY VERY STUPID, or they were quite intelligent, rational creatures made inthe image of God who doubted God and believed the snake when he misled them. A HOLY, RIGHTEOUS God whose creation just said "we don't trust you, you aren't worthy of trust, you aren't the boss of me"? Yeah, that's justice....and yet the stunning and awsome mercy of this same just God who looks down at HIs creation and says "I love you so much that I will pay the price my own justice requires" Now that's a God worthy of worship!! That's the God I worship!! A God of perfect justice and a God of perfect love and grace....

Why would I worship a God who is not Just? We do not respect a judge who lets a rapist or a pedophile free! A judge who does not value morality in its highest form is no judge at all!! Why worship a God who is not righteous enough to be offended at the merest sin? (now that will keep a person up at night!)

(strangely enough....we as a sociey love to cry out for justice....social justice, criminal justice....until that justice is for us. WE all love to see that idiot speeder going 100mph pulled over by the side of the road but are irritated when we are pulled over for speeding, then we are crying out for mercy)

Again, until we truly understand our transgressions to God, we don't truly understand His grace to us. That moment when we fall down in tears, sobbing from the realization that we are sinners and we cannot be righteous, that is the moment when Christ's grace shines the brightest. "Amazing grace" indeed!!

I am happy that you are enjoying the debate....may we both grow to a deeper understanding of God's grace and justice.