God on OT vs. God nowadays etc...

[Turgonian]

Like I said, your concept of free will is from secular philosophy. The Bible pictures free will as a will that wants to follow God.

You are a funny Turgy...

How so? Funny Luke: '"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."' (Luke 4:18-21). Funny John: 'Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."' (John 8:34-36) Funny Paul: 'Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' (Romans 6:16-23) 'Through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.' (Romans 8:2)

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are the one pushing the secular envelope here? He can change our will if we allow him to... It's all about permissions, trust and faith... No strings attached or it isn't free...

Who talked about 'strings'? I didn't. But he doesn't change our will only if we 'allow' Him to. He changes our will so that we may embrace Christ as our Saviour and have eternal life.

I wonder...how do you explain John 4:44-45? '"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."'

[FFC]

I wonder...how do you explain John 4:44-45? '"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."'

Who does the Father draw, Turgy? You answered your own question with your quote. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. I say He draws everyone and then it is up to them to believe...but then again I don't believe in irresistible Grace.

[Gman]

Yes FFC, good point.... I like your new avatar too... It makes me more relaxed I guess.

Funny Paul: 'Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

Now now Turgy, don't take my last post as a ad hominem attack. Again I think you answered your own question here too in Romans 6:16-23. This verse uses the word "obey" which simply means to submit or to comply with. In other words, one needs to allow him in (and his will) in order to submit to him... He never changes, but we still need to accept him and conform to his will..

Who talked about 'strings'? I didn't. But he doesn't change our will only if we 'allow' Him to. He changes our will so that we may embrace Christ as our Saviour and have eternal life.

God can invite me to the party and sends his invitation to me with honors. However, if I choose not to listen to him or decide not to go to the party and reject the invitation, whose fault is that? I think that faith comes with some responsibility although it would be more convenient for me to think the opposite...

For me, faith (or trust) in God is a growing process... You need to shed off the old man and put on the new man in Christ by the renewing of your mind..

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

2 Corinthians 10:15 Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our area of activity among you will greatly expand,

Ephesians 4:22,23 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Ephesians 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

I believe the word of God also instructs us to test ourselves against the standards God has set...

Galatians 6:4 Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

So as we test ourselves God tests and works in us also...

1 Thessalonians 2:4 On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.

I also think that one's faith can be derailed, but not necessarily lost...

1 Timothy 1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

Notice in this last verse that is wasn't God who shipwrecked their faith...

Its all a relationship with him. It's a trust that you build with him..

Hope this helps...

Take care,

G -

[Turgonian]

It was John 6:44, not John 4:44; excuse me.

FFC -- An expounding of that text, 'They will all be taught by God', thinks it refers to those whom God has drawn, or to the spiritual Jerusalem, in connection to Isaiah 54:13 -- 'All your sons will be taught by the LORD, and great will be your children's peace.'

Gman -- OK. The question is, how are we led to submit? Is it the humble-by-nature who get all the good things? The spiritually-minded? Or does God forcibly turn proud people around sometimes?
Faith does come with responsibility, and the process of sanctification is bound up with true justification. When God justifies us, we are no more slaves to sin, and God will not tempt us beyond what we can bear; which means we should try our utmost to live a sinless life, even though we will fail a lot more than we'd like.
Of course I agree with all the texts you quoted. Also note that the 'renewing of your mind' is not a human process; God has to renew the mind. Then, we will start really trusting Him.

[Gman]

Gman -- OK. The question is, how are we led to submit? Is it the humble-by-nature who get all the good things? The spiritually-minded? Or does God forcibly turn proud people around sometimes?

I don't think that is "The Question" but more of like "A Question". I would say that God draws us to him... It's then up to us if we want to obey Him or not. Whether its forced or not forced..

Is it the spiritually humble or spiritually minded who get all good things? It depends on what you mean by spiritual and good things... I think those questions are for God to answer, not really ourselves...

Faith does come with responsibility, and the process of sanctification is bound up with true justification. When God justifies us, we are no more slaves to sin, and God will not tempt us beyond what we can bear; which means we should try our utmost to live a sinless life, even though we will fail a lot more than we'd like.
Of course I agree with all the texts you quoted. Also note that the 'renewing of your mind' is not a human process; God has to renew the mind. Then, we will start really trusting Him.

Maybe I should be clearer. I never said (or meant) that we had to do it alone... It is God who works in us according to His good nature... In light of such verses as Ephesians 4:22, 23, however, we still need to turn off the old man (sin) nature.

Ephesians 4:22,23 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

We also still need to pray to him for guidance and submit or conform to His will and not assume we know it all the time...

[FFC]

Yes FFC, good point.... I like your new avatar too... It makes me more relaxed I guess.

Thank you, gman, very kind of you to notice. It's Van Gogh's portrait of his good friend Dr. Gatchet. It makes me feel more relaxed too.

FFC -- An expounding of that text, 'They will all be taught by God', thinks it refers to those whom God has drawn, or to the spiritual Jerusalem, in connection to Isaiah 54:13 -- 'All your sons will be taught by the LORD, and great will be your children's peace.'

Thinks or knows? I get your point though.

[Gman]

FFC, hmmm... Now that I think about, I do see some connection here to "the real"... Maybe posed in a different direction...



By the way I'm also an avid Van Gogh fan. I even went to see his museum in Amsterdam.

Cheers,

G -

[madscientist]

gettin back to this thread... read the Bible further with the Israelites going further etc. Again, dont get many things. First, if they were the elect nation - what about others? Why were all the nations from whose land they went through evil and their king didnt let isralites through? Once it even says God hardened king's heart so that he wouldnt let em thru. Also, once it said that they had to kill em all, including women and children. And once it said that they must not have any mercy upon them - those who had other gods than the God of the Bible, somewhere in Deuteronomy. God is said to be merciful.

Dont get it - how possible they all had to die just because Isralieites were going to their land? And if God caused all of the kings' hearts to be hardened - how can we possibly blame them? God's plan - get that, but why were they destined or predestined even to die - just because they weren't the "elect" nation? We cant choose where we're born, so...

Heard someone say "they wer evil etc". But its due to their nurture - and dont believe that EVERY ONE OF THEM was evil and EVERY ONE OF ISRALITES was one which God preferred. Ok if they were evil - did God ever give them His commandments? To Moses and israelites, but dont think so about them others. So how could they all have been cursed and killed by the horrible death by our merciful God?? really shocks me when I read such stuff!!

[dukefan1989]

Just a thought... Today till the end of the world will be defined as "New Testament times." If we consider that, the NT will be the bloodiest time in human history. Billions upon Billions will be judged by God. In Revelation, and many other books in the Bible, Scripture speaks of this massive judgment on mankind. So while God hasn't executed judgment yet, judgment will come much more harshly in the NT than it ever did in the OT.

[madscientist]

Interesting thoughts dukefan1989...
Yea its true if you look at it from this point of view. However the thing is, not all people go throught the same processes. Not all were Israelites, and not all of people living at that time were "elect" and faced God from face to face. Not all had the 10 commandments shown to them - or I may be very wrong here... And why were all the other nations evil? Obviously, nurutre then played a role. The fact that they sacrificed their children to non-existant gods may have been going there for generations... You are what you see around yourself, basically. Some idiot started that theory, and others followed. But from generation to generation this may have become a tradition. And I dont believe EVERY ONE OF THEM was wicked. Why women and children were to be killed too? Looks like God judged according to "nation" rather than actual. Obviously, there were good people there and among Israelites and there were evil people among both groups. We cant choose whether we're born Israeli or some of the other nations either... so why be judged according to who were our ancestors? I think someone said God doesnt judge according to nation, that we're all equal etc... So why even bother with the word "nation"? Arent we human after all and equal and created according to God's image?

Also, the fact that God hardened the kings' hearts to not let them pass - OK why to blame the king AND slay all his people? The elect nation was passing through territory; but not all including innocent needed to die necessarily.

So where's punishment and where's mercy? If innocent are killed with evil... or if killed without any apparent reason... to clean the land for the elect... why so much murder and killing? Why couldnt they be let to live as all other people? Why did the nations have to die because someone meaning more was coming? To me, mercy would mean show those nations godliness and convert them to the right religion. Or dont know - but not kill all, including children. Seems absurd, extreme, unfair, radical, and definitely not a loving thing.

Assuming there are no controversies... how are we to interpret this? Metaphorically?
This is one of the things which bothers me most... why thousands of "innocent" die without any apparent reason? I have started to go through the Bible from beginning but when I see such verses where they were passing and then had to slay all in God's name and that God "cursed them" or those sinful... makes me really mad and question the Holy Word... And also, if God is infinitely merciful and loving, why does He allow such things to happen, if we're all equal? Or aren't we...?

I hope God makes me understand what's all this about.

[FFC]

Me too, Mad. It really doesn't seem fair...but as we hear all of the time, if God gave us what was fair we would all be burning in hell...

I know, I know....that doesn't help me either.

[madscientist]

Hm yes... but what stance are we to take? Ignore it and say "why would I bother I'm not in that situation?" Dont think thats the best way to deal with it.
Say it was God's will and we shouldn't care what He does? Looks like not caring either. We humans want to know more and explore truth and things like that - moreover it seems quite shocking.
Yes... understand the burning in hell thing. But if God is perfect, just, fair - but infinitely loving and merciful at the same time - then shouldn't He be equal to all beings? The thing is, we cant choose who we are, what environment we are brought up in, what genetic traits we have etc.

[FFC]

Hm yes... but what stance are we to take? Ignore it and say "why would I bother I'm not in that situation?" Dont think thats the best way to deal with it.
Say it was God's will and we shouldn't care what He does? Looks like not caring either. We humans want to know more and explore truth and things like that - moreover it seems quite shocking.
Yes... understand the burning in hell thing. But if God is perfect, just, fair - but infinitely loving and merciful at the same time - then shouldn't He be equal to all beings? The thing is, we cant choose who we are, what environment we are brought up in, what genetic traits we have etc.

God seems to be one big paradox at times doesn't he? I think the problem is that in His infinate knowlege He sees the whole picture, while we in our finite knowlege only see mere snap shots.

[madscientist]

Nicely said FFC!
Although this is not the sort of answer that satisfies us, humans. We always want to know more and from our perspective. Yes God does have His Holy plan etc. But that does not stop us from questioning the world and the Bible and God Himself - what if... ? Although we are to think and believe it's still perfect and good and all that, we still pose the philosophical questions such as "if i were one of them would I be like i am now or like them?" and then that raises further questions. I mean, religion, faith, life, this forum - all philosophy!!!!
The thing is, if some are of the character like me, who question a lot!! of things about life and are not satisfied with things as they are but rather like to take a philosophical angle, are such people meant to be satisfied and say its all OK, leave it to God or try and find as much truth as we can? Should we even bother to try and answer those questions? Is it good to question God in that sense?

[jenna]

Yes, we are to question things. Romans 12:2," And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God". If we don't question things, how can they be PROVEN to us whether they are right or wrong? And after questioning, take your verses to the bible.