The Fall of Man

[Otisblues]

Can pedophiles around children use this excuse?

No, I agree they can not use this excuse. But if I knowing place a pedophile in a situation where he has children available to him then I am setting the children up and thus I am also guilty. Even in this example the pedophile would be guilty, there is no doubt about that; however, if I knowing assisted him in accessing children then I would be as guility as he.


If the android has free will, it would be responsible.

I tend to agree with you but I will go back to my original point. If the android went crazy and killed a lot of people I would also have some responsibility in the matter and would likely be prosecuted.


God never tempts us more than we can bear, but provides a means of escape from temptation.

This statement is close to the one that God never gives us more than we can handle. In my experiences as a counselor I have found time and time again people who were given more than they can handle. As per example the young child who is abused by a pedophile and becomes a Borderline Personality Disorder who only escape from pain is to cut on themselves.


Why does God judge and allow people to reject him and then hold them to account. You state that you cannot accept that God can do this as well as reject people in an everlasting sense and will instead embrace everyone.

I am not neccessarily saying he will embrace everyone, I don't know what he will do. I am only saying people are not religious for many reasons. You make it sound so simple, they simply reject God. I don't think most nonreligous people would in anyway agree with this. Many would tell you how can you reject a God that does not exist. If you believe that God does not exist where is the motivation to embrace him. Others simply find religion stupid, they are not consciously rejecting God, from their experience they do not believe. I am just saying there are many social, cultural, and psychological reasons that people are not religious. I don't have any idea of how God will handle this but I do not believe Dante's eternal damnation will be the answer. No one would consciously choose eternal damnation.

I do agree with you that this life is one of pain and that is just the way it is. While I do have a good life most of the time, I realize at some point I will get sick and die. I would prefer it not be this way but then I don't really think I would want to hang around here forever, it would get pretty boring after a few thousand years.

I have also never seen anything I would consider a miracle, a supernatural healing for example. I have seen spontaneous remission of cancer but just because a physician can not exactly explain it does not mean it is a supernatural event. If it were then you would get into the problem of why God would favor one person over another who was just as deserving. That would not seem very fair of a Just God.

I personally do not believe an entity such as Satan exists, as per my previous example darkness does not exist, it is simply the absence of light. I don't think Man needs any help being bad. They do a fine job without any supernatural influences.


Next, do you find fault with God's all knowing ability to place people in groups, nations, and tongues according to common minds? There will those that reject the saving message of Christ and those that will accept. Let God be in charge and not your arguments

No, I find no fault with God because I don't believe he purposely set this up as it is. I believe he created the universe in some manner and then this is what evolved. Again, I do believe God will take care of this and neither your arguments or mine will make any difference. I believe in the end we will all find that we are all wrong to a large degree and hopefully at some point we will be capable of understanding God's overall plan.


Otisblues, you have a great love for people but do you really love Jesus the same?

I certainly believe that I love Jesus as much as I love others although I am very far from the kind of love that Jesus demonstrated. We are not even in the same universe. But Jesus' message of love is what I base my religion on. However, unlike you I can not ignore my rationality when I look at the history of both the Bible and of Christainity, and thus form my conclusions.

God's ways are perfect

I agree with you on this. I see God as beyond being, something we can in no way understand. Jesus was one example to give us a reference point and that is where I begin my religion. As with Taoist's writing, you can be sure that anything you say about God is not God. You can only say what he is not. He is beyond us as we are to an ant. God is the ultimate "Form". So I hope I gain more understanding of God and will continue to study and meditate, I know that there is only so far a human can go in his understanding. But I do agree with you, God will take care of it in the end and I have no real idea of how he will handle these things. Again, I do not think it will be through eternal damanation but I could be wrong.

[B. W.]

Can pedophiles around children use this excuse?

No, I agree they can not use this excuse. But if I knowing place a pedophile in a situation where he has children available to him then I am setting the children up and thus I am also guilty. Even in this example the pedophile would be guilty, there is no doubt about that; however, if I knowing assisted him in accessing children then I would be as guilty as he.

I can see your point know especially since you do not believe in Satan as well as not understand what Jesus himself said about this being. Please note -- Speaking to the religious leaders Jesus says in John 8:44; “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

We see that there are sons — of the devil / Satan

Matthew 13:39, "and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels."

Matthew 25:41, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

We see that the devil tempts as well as speaks and is thus a living being, a real living entity and that he exist.

Luke 4:3, "The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."

Matthew 4:10, "Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

Jesus told Satan to be gone — and that being left Jesus. Next, now look at what this living being work is as well as his children — followers:

John 10:10, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. "

Now regarding your question: As part of my employment, I work with clients who are under SOMB guidelines: I manage their cases, monitor treatment, write ILD's, or work under court order's for client specific treatment.

These people you cite are not right — they rob, steal, and destroy — they slay people's faith by their very existence as it causes people to question God because pedophiles do what they do. Evil exist and since it does — so does Satan who does anything to stain God's name. Now, are you by your accusation you imply doing the same - impugning God?

There is an answer and you may not like it or except it: God grants life and with that life, both spiritual eternal and mortal, God's grace grants his created beings the ability think and reason independently. Why? To prove Himself as God - all powerful. How could all powerful be all powerful if it denies created beings of note the ability to think and reason independently?

How could God truly display that he is just and righteous by taking away the very life he gave as a gift and sends these off into non-existence? To do so would prove God a liar for giving of life and then destroying the gift of life by means of oblivion. God is a God of the living and not the dead Jesus said — do you know what this means?

Instead, God holds to account, and prepares a place where he does not renege on his gift — the gift of life along with its responsibility of independent thinking.

Matthew 25:41, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

You cite God as the creator of evil since evil exist in human beings but you refuse to see who the true author of this evil really is — Satan and his angels. Even if you did believe in the devil and his cohorts, you would still cite God as the one who made Satan evil.

You do not know God's true Justice and mercy and see it as weakness. Satan see this as weakness about God also and used the knowledge that God will not unrighteously blast him off into non-existence as that would make an all perfect God deny who he is: Giver of life. Gifts and callings of God are without what? Satan's sin was found within him — not placed there by God. God is just and prepared a place for such that rebel.

Ezekiel 28:13-16, "You were in Eden, the garden of God... 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. 16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

God made the Satan perfect — eternal being. This implies freedom of intelligence and responsibility. For God to deny freedom of intelligence would make an All Powerful God, not all powerful at all as all powerful cannot be all powerful over evil if it denies it. Our ways are not God's. His ways are beyond our total understanding. His justice, mercy, love, wisdom, righteousness, grace, etc, and etc are way beyond our own ability to adequately reason on these.

Now, here is a mystery: How do you purify gold? Why use heat to remove dross so the pure remains?

Note: Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

And read:

Revelation 21:1, “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.”

Do you have any understanding what God is doing Perfectly, Righteously, Justly and with Equity? We are living in what process? What is God preparing?

Psalms 98:9, "before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity."

Jesus came and he did not leave us as orphans to remain in our sins but to purify a people unto himself. Evil and wickedness comes not from God but from the heart of the creature. God may have made the created being but the impurity comes from what they alone do with the gifts God gives.

Dross will be removed either by fire or by an act of profound love. Tares removed from the wheat. In this God proves Justice — are you mocking God's justice? or just confused that evil exist?
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Note all bible quotes are from the ESV version

[Otisblues]

You and I have very different views of the word Justice. You imply I am judging God whereas I see it as the opposite. I admit I do not know what perfect Justice is and do not believe humans capable of such knowledge. I have no real conception of what God is preparing but I agree with you that it will be Just and perfect. It just seems we have very different concepts of what that means. I certainly believe that evil exists but not in itself. No man consciously commits an evil act. In some perverted way, the man will see his act as good for him or else he would not do it. That in no way removes his responsibility. A person robs a bank as an easy way to make money. He believes it is the best plan he has. He will still go to jail. I don't believe there is a Satan telling him to rob a bank, "the devil made me do". No he made the decision on his own. There was no need of a supernatural creature to make him rob the bank.

I think we have reached a point where we simply have to agree to disagree. In some ways I wish I had your sureness that the scriptures are without error and therefore are perfect in whatever verion of the Bible you choose to read. I can not dismiss the history of the Bible, the contradictions I see in those texts, the history of Christianity, and the many versions of the Bible that are read today as well as in the past.

However, I feel we are now repeating arguments we have already discussed so might I say I have enjoyed the debate but just as you would not be convinced by my arguments neither am I swayed by yours. That is one reason there are so many religions and different sects in each religion. Seldom in a debate does one change the other's mind but I have learned some things and I feel that made it very worthwhile. You are obviously very knowledgeable and quite a good debater. I hope that I have also been up to the task.

I guess this is a very conservative forum and would rather find a forum where there would be more people with my point of view. I would have like to have others closer to my point of view joining in the discussion. I would like to hear their versions of a liberal theology such as mine.

[Enigma7457]

That is one reason there are so many religions and different sects in each religion.

I like this statement. While i do believe there is one truth to the bible, one way it is all supposed to be, i also believe that as long as we have the basic truth (Jesus lived and died for us), the rest is "gravy", so to say. It is still important and we should all strive to find it, but as long as we have the basic truth, i believe we are okay.

That is not to say that we should not continue trying to learn and discover the rest of the truth, i only mean that if we do not find it until the end when God shows us, we are still okay as long as we seek with all our heart.

[Otisblues]

For one time during this discussion I can say I completely agree with you Enigma.

[B. W.]

You and I have very different views of the word Justice. You imply I am judging God whereas I see it as the opposite. I admit I do not know what perfect Justice is and do not believe humans capable of such knowledge. I have no real conception of what God is preparing but I agree with you that it will be Just and perfect. It just seems we have very different concepts of what that means. I certainly believe that evil exists but not in itself. No man consciously commits an evil act. In some perverted way, the man will see his act as good for him or else he would not do it. That in no way removes his responsibility. A person robs a bank as an easy way to make money. He believes it is the best plan he has. He will still go to jail. I don't believe there is a Satan telling him to rob a bank, "the devil made me do". No he made the decision on his own. There was no need of a supernatural creature to make him rob the bank.

I think we have reached a point where we simply have to agree to disagree. In some ways I wish I had your sureness that the scriptures are without error and therefore are perfect in whatever verion of the Bible you choose to read. I can not dismiss the history of the Bible, the contradictions I see in those texts, the history of Christianity, and the many versions of the Bible that are read today as well as in the past.

However, I feel we are now repeating arguments we have already discussed so might I say I have enjoyed the debate but just as you would not be convinced by my arguments neither am I swayed by yours. That is one reason there are so many religions and different sects in each religion. Seldom in a debate does one change the other's mind but I have learned some things and I feel that made it very worthwhile. You are obviously very knowledgeable and quite a good debater. I hope that I have also been up to the task.

I guess this is a very conservative forum and would rather find a forum where there would be more people with my point of view. I would have like to have others closer to my point of view joining in the discussion. I would like to hear their versions of a liberal theology such as mine.

Your answer is found in Christ and uncovered when you honestly look into the nature and character of God. You will have to wrestle with the answers and all this takes time. The bible is where it reveals this. Go elsewhere and remain lost. When I speak of Justice it is God's - not mine I speak of and that is why it is foreign to you.

To be true means there is also a false. There is no such thing as relative truth as many in liberal theology teach. Is all truth is relative? Are you absolutely sure on this? If so — you proved there are only absolutes because All means ALL. When Jesus confronted many with truth, they too ran away from Jesus looking for others of like mind.

I would be more interested in Jesus' point of view rather than running to others who hold 'close to' ones own point of view. Are you saying that your point of view is greater than Christ and the truth he teaches?

Do you believe that 'no-one can know the truth?' How then can that be a true statement? If that statement is really true — how can it be correct when no-one can possibly know the truth?

There is truth and it can be known.
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