Can you prove God exists only using logic?

[jenna]

So what exactly is the difference between the two? I never believed in "evolution", so I never really studied it.

[zoegirl]

Short answer and then you can ask questions for elaboration.

Microevolution is the observed minute changes in populations over generation. Natural selection can be one mechanism for this microevolution. We see a form of selection in crops and domesticated animals, where humans have deliberatley selected animals with certain physical characteristics we wnat. (more milk, more beef, more fur, less fur, short nose, long nose, fast, larger grains....etc) Most of what we observe in microevolution is simply a shift in natural gene frequencies of genes already existing in the popualtions. Microevolution is fully observable and testable.

Macroevolution, however, is the idea that these changes in microevoultion can, over time, produce large scale changes. The idea that humans evolved from a common ancerstor with apes and chimps, or that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles. Most of the evidence here is much like crime scence evidence, since it occurred in the past.

Where there are a lot of questions is whether the one (microevolution) has enough power in the variations brought about by mutations and other genetics changes to produce the shifts that are presented in macroevolutionary history.

For other info http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/biblevol.html

[jenna]

So in other words, micro would be a chihuahua coming from a wolf (same species) and macro would be a bird from a reptile?

[madscientist]

Wow this topic goes fast!! all those posts in a day!!
Yes jenwat3, that is what it would be. Exactly...
The thing with evolution is like the theory of creation of not only nature but also universe. It came by a similar means - it is organized, evolved as well into the form it is now and is dynamic, will always be changing and evolve further, just like nature. Depends on your beliefs... As for macroevolution - I think it can cause great changes if God controls it and if He planned for things to arise in this way, similar as planets. How did they come into existance? Solar system? It did not exist few billion yrs ago! I think same theory applies to both.

Interesting ideas with Satan there ... well I think there was death and pain, but only for animals - I mean, animals must have eaten something. And some species, e.g. dinosaurs were all well dead before man came.
Agree with Jad - it all went pretty much till Babel tower; then since times of Abraham it changed. I've heard that from Abraham we should take Bible literally or something like that - tjhat until then it is different - don't know how to explain but - there's some new start or somehting like that.
Another thought - was Adam the first man ever or was he the first "modern man" - i.e. no more one of those Homo habilis or what species. It could be that those people existed before, and suddenly God brought about huge changes - that is when first "modern" man came into existence, capable of having free will and that. But that's just a different interpretation and theory. Also, men - people - humans evolved. From Homo habilis to sapines. I've read that this is all made up by evolutionists but then saw some quite convincing evidence that those species actually existed all those millions yrs ago. Now - who is the first man??

[jenna]

Thank you for this. It really makes you think doesnt it? No one can truly understand the mind of God, but I'm glad He's there to at least help us understand some things.

[Jad]

Short answer and then you can ask questions for elaboration.

Microevolution is the observed minute changes in populations over generation. Natural selection can be one mechanism for this microevolution. We see a form of selection in crops and domesticated animals, where humans have deliberatley selected animals with certain physical characteristics we wnat. (more milk, more beef, more fur, less fur, short nose, long nose, fast, larger grains....etc) Most of what we observe in microevolution is simply a shift in natural gene frequencies of genes already existing in the popualtions. Microevolution is fully observable and testable.

Macroevolution, however, is the idea that these changes in microevoultion can, over time, produce large scale changes. The idea that humans evolved from a common ancerstor with apes and chimps, or that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles. Most of the evidence here is much like crime scence evidence, since it occurred in the past.

Where there are a lot of questions is whether the one (microevolution) has enough power in the variations brought about by mutations and other genetics changes to produce the shifts that are presented in macroevolutionary history.

For other info http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/biblevol.html

Awesome job zoegirl, couldn't have said it better myself.

Another interesting thought is the undeniable evidence that everything is running down, becoming more chaotic, infected with disease etc. Take an apple for example. The nutrients and all the goodness of a single apple today has far less goodness in it compared to an apple 100 years ago. Pollution and whatnot also accelerate this running down sin infested world but it is amazing why someone would even consider something like Utopia or simply thinking we are getting better and better, evolving into a greater species and world etc. Imagine the Nutrients inside an apple in the garden of Eden! Well all accept the fruit Eve ate lol.

It is no surprise to me why people lived to 900+ years back then. God's creation seems not just good, as Genesis records, but too good for our own good. God had to shorten our years on earth because we could not handle such awesome goodness for long periods of time. It was so good it tempted us away from God (other idols). Even today, with all the destruction and evil going on, we still get tempted to worship created things over the creator himself. How wonderful a thought concerning God's incredibly good creation. Praise God!

Good point. I think dinosaurs were here before man, but everything was destroyed when Satan tried to overthrow God and was thrown to earth. Then God started over, this time creating man.

Hehe we could discuss this section alone for hours on end as there are so many interpretations concerning how God actually did it.

A really really good debate I heard with an atheist and a Christian debating the plausibility of God's existence considering all the pain and suffering in the world discusses these issues we are talking about rather well I must say. The ones concerning death and suffering before Adam and whatnot. Everyone click on the link below and have a listen if you want to. I've listened to it 3 times now, even though it goes for 2 hours. It really is that compelling; or perhaps it took me three goes to finally understand what was being said lol...

http://media.libsyn.com/media/infidelgu ... s_Wood.mp3

Its from 'the debate hour' show which is run by the infamous atheist InfidelGuy. Its not a formal debate but just two guys chatting over the phone. One is an atheist who used to be a Christian and the other is a Christian who used to be an atheist. Enjoy! And please come back and leave some feedback on what you think about it, positive or negative.

-

[Jad]

Oh another important note to add, if I haven't already. All this stuff is awesome to discuss and debate but we must not forget it has nothing to do with our salvation. We are saved by grace. Eternal life or eternal death is not decided on how long with believe the days of Genesis actually are, or if the flood was local or worldwide. Praise God for that!!

[ScienceAndFaith]

I have a different take on this. I would answer "yes" (in a sense) because the very fact that we can ask the question and have this discussion means that we have consciousness. I believe it's safe to assume that we are not wooden 2x4s responding to each other. Wooden 2x4s will never one day ask the question, "Hmmmm. I wonder if there is a big Tree in the sky?" The only source of consciousness can be a Superconsciousness (which I would refer to as God). So it just seems rather silly to conclude that there is no Source for the human mind while observing that conscious minds are debating whether or not a source for consciousness exists. I'm patiently waiting for evolutionary biologists to find a naturalistic source of consciousness. At present this appears to be one of the atheist's many gaps.

But beyond that, if we believe that the Source is the God of the bible, then we have the bible to give us some insights. As I read it, the bible tells us that faith ends in sight. So until that day that we stand face-to-face with God we will not be able to "prove" that he exists. My conversion from atheism to Christianity was based on the weight of the evidence. In my younger days my immature understanding of the nature of God gave the weight of the evidence to the atheist perspective, and I'm still an atheist to that "god". But when I came to understand God the way the bible actually portrays him that obstacle was removed. The weight of the evidence shifted to the Christian perspective and has continued to expand in that direction.

[Jad]

I have a different take on this. I would answer "yes" (in a sense) because the very fact that we can ask the question and have this discussion means that we have consciousness. I believe it's safe to assume that we are not wooden 2x4s responding to each other. Wooden 2x4s will never one day ask the question, "Hmmmm. I wonder if there is a big Tree in the sky?" The only source of consciousness can be a Superconsciousness (which I would refer to as God). So it just seems rather silly to conclude that there is no Source for the human mind while observing that conscious minds are debating whether or not a source for consciousness exists. I'm patiently waiting for evolutionary biologists to find a naturalistic source of consciousness. At present this appears to be one of the atheist's many gaps.

But beyond that, if we believe that the Source is the God of the bible, then we have the bible to give us some insights. As I read it, the bible tells us that faith ends in sight. So until that day that we stand face-to-face with God we will not be able to "prove" that he exists. My conversion from atheism to Christianity was based on the weight of the evidence. In my younger days my immature understanding of the nature of God gave the weight of the evidence to the atheist perspective, and I'm still an atheist to that "god". But when I came to understand God the way the bible actually portrays him that obstacle was removed. The weight of the evidence shifted to the Christian perspective and has continued to expand in that direction.

Great stuff very well said. You can't deny reason without actually using reason to deny it. There has to be a source for it all but in this postmodern world not many people want to think that hard about it or simply prefer to deny there is a source for all reason out of shear preference. Like they say a little philosophy with get you atheism, a lot of philosophy will give you theism.

[jenna]

Short answer and then you can ask questions for elaboration.

Microevolution is the observed minute changes in populations over generation. Natural selection can be one mechanism for this microevolution. We see a form of selection in crops and domesticated animals, where humans have deliberatley selected animals with certain physical characteristics we wnat. (more milk, more beef, more fur, less fur, short nose, long nose, fast, larger grains....etc) Most of what we observe in microevolution is simply a shift in natural gene frequencies of genes already existing in the popualtions. Microevolution is fully observable and testable.

Macroevolution, however, is the idea that these changes in microevoultion can, over time, produce large scale changes. The idea that humans evolved from a common ancerstor with apes and chimps, or that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles. Most of the evidence here is much like crime scence evidence, since it occurred in the past.

Where there are a lot of questions is whether the one (microevolution) has enough power in the variations brought about by mutations and other genetics changes to produce the shifts that are presented in macroevolutionary history.

For other info http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/biblevol.html

Awesome job zoegirl, couldn't have said it better myself.

Another interesting thought is the undeniable evidence that everything is running down, becoming more chaotic, infected with disease etc. Take an apple for example. The nutrients and all the goodness of a single apple today has far less goodness in it compared to an apple 100 years ago. Pollution and whatnot also accelerate this running down sin infested world but it is amazing why someone would even consider something like Utopia or simply thinking we are getting better and better, evolving into a greater species and world etc. Imagine the Nutrients inside an apple in the garden of Eden! Well all accept the fruit Eve ate lol.

It is no surprise to me why people lived to 900+ years back then. God's creation seems not just good, as Genesis records, but too good for our own good. God had to shorten our years on earth because we could not handle such awesome goodness for long periods of time. It was so good it tempted us away from God (other idols). Even today, with all the destruction and evil going on, we still get tempted to worship created things over the creator himself. How wonderful a thought concerning God's incredibly good creation. Praise God!
Is it possibly because of man's messing with God's creations? Hormones and pesticides?

Good point. I think dinosaurs were here before man, but everything was destroyed when Satan tried to overthrow God and was thrown to earth. Then God started over, this time creating man.

Hehe we could discuss this section alone for hours on end as there are so many interpretations concerning how God actually did it.

A really really good debate I heard with an atheist and a Christian debating the plausibility of God's existence considering all the pain and suffering in the world discusses these issues we are talking about rather well I must say. The ones concerning death and suffering before Adam and whatnot. Everyone click on the link below and have a listen if you want to. I've listened to it 3 times now, even though it goes for 2 hours. It really is that compelling; or perhaps it took me three goes to finally understand what was being said lol...

http://media.libsyn.com/media/infidelgu ... s_Wood.mp3

Its from 'the debate hour' show which is run by the infamous atheist InfidelGuy. Its not a formal debate but just two guys chatting over the phone. One is an atheist who used to be a Christian and the other is a Christian who used to be an atheist. Enjoy! And please come back and leave some feedback on what you think about it, positive or negative.

-

[jenna]

still haven't figured out how to post correctly... I have a point in the middle of the above post.

[zoegirl]

HA, If you go back to my very original posts you will find me struggling with this. I must have written 5 or 6 posts frustated with this.

Usually if a post is embedded with another's quote, you have simply left out a bracket or an equal sign.

[ quote = " name of person quoting" ]

quote

[ / quote ]

I've had to go back and edit countless posts because of missing brackets or equal signs or quotation marks.

[Jad]

Another interesting thought is the undeniable evidence that everything is running down, becoming more chaotic, infected with disease etc. Take an apple for example. The nutrients and all the goodness of a single apple today has far less goodness in it compared to an apple 100 years ago. Pollution and whatnot also accelerate this running down sin infested world but it is amazing why someone would even consider something like Utopia or simply thinking we are getting better and better, evolving into a greater species and world etc. Imagine the Nutrients inside an apple in the garden of Eden! Well all accept the fruit Eve ate lol.

It is no surprise to me why people lived to 900+ years back then. God's creation seems not just good, as Genesis records, but too good for our own good. God had to shorten our years on earth because we could not handle such awesome goodness for long periods of time. It was so good it tempted us away from God (other idols). Even today, with all the destruction and evil going on, we still get tempted to worship created things over the creator himself. How wonderful a thought concerning God's incredibly good creation. Praise God!

Is it possibly because of man's messing with God's creations? Hormones and pesticides?

I think man messing with God's creation accelerates the process of a dying, running down earth yes but it is not the initial cause. Hormones and pesticides I'm not really educated enough on so I'm not sure. If you're talking about scientists messing around with human hormones I don't personally see how that helps the human race decay. Pesticides I would think some of the side effects would effect the environment in some way or another. Maybe it effects the ozone layer and in turn global warming in some small way.

still haven't figured out how to post correctly... I have a point in the middle of the above post.

I think it's easier not to use the 'quote' link to reply to a post. Just highlight and copy the section you want to your clipboard then use the 'POSTREPLY' button down the bottom of the page to get to the reply page. Paste the text you want to quote in the box and then highlight it again. Then use the tools up top to do whatever you want to the highlighted text. Click on the 'Quote' button to have it automatically put the quotes around the highlighted text. If you have more than one particular section you want to quote then scroll down the page a bit and on the right you'll see the 'EXPAND VIEW' link. That will show you all the previous posts so you can highlight what you want, copy and paste it into the box and automatically ad the quotes again.

If you want to add the persons username in the quote so it's more clearer who you are responding too then you can edit the beginning quote code and change it from

to say

for example.

That's the way I do it anyway. The most important point I can make though is to use the 'Preview' function before posting any reply. It will pick up any wrong code by showing you exactly what its going to look like when you finally submit the post. You should be able to work out from there the errors in the code and fix them up before actually submitting the post. It's also good for checking your spelling and grammer... sorry grammar.

[jenna]

Thanks for the tips, Zoe and Jad. Think I'll stick with the post replies for now though.

[zoegirl]

Thanks for the tips, Zoe and Jad. Think I'll stick with the post replies for now though.

Hey, if I can figure it out, you certainly can. My first few posts were quite humorous.

(And Jad, wish you were there when I started, that was quite and good reply!)

As an aside for the growth hormones. I actually do worry about these. There is some evidence that these are responsible for the changes in the onset of adolescence in girls and boys today. twenty years ago the average onset of puberty was around 12-14 and now we are finding the average age to be 9-11. We have in our school systems in the US girls that are starting adolescnece in the 4th or 5th grade. I am seeing some validity to organic products.