restored church of God

[Byblos]

My answer to all questions about Jesus is a resounding, emphatic, very loud YES. If I thought anything different, then that would mean that I thought Jesus was a liar, and so since He lied, then He was not our Savior since He sinned by lying. Our savior did not sin. Heaven FORBID I should believe anything else!

If I recall correctly, you mentioned somewhere that you also believe Jesus is God but you do not believe in the trinity. Does this mean you believe Jesus is a lesser god? And how does that fit within a monotheistic religion like Christianity?

[jenna]

Ok, good question! For clarification, yes, I believe Jesus is God. However, there is God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). As far as the trinity goes, I believe there are only two Beings in the Godhead, The Father and The Son. Yes, I do believe in the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe that it is a person or third part in the trinity in that sense. The Holy Spirit is the mind of God, not an actual being. Hope this helps some.

[Kurieuo]

Ok, good question! For clarification, yes, I believe Jesus is God. However, there is God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). As far as the trinity goes, I believe there are only two Beings in the Godhead, The Father and The Son. Yes, I do believe in the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe that it is a person or third part in the trinity in that sense. The Holy Spirit is the mind of God, not an actual being. Hope this helps some.

This makes sense, but what of passages in the Bible which portray the Holy Spirit as a personal being rather than simply being of a one mind/spiritual thing between the Father and Son?

[Kurieuo]

Regarding the personhood attributes of the Holy Spirit I refer you to http://www.godandscience.org/discovery/chapter5.html and http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/spiritgod.html

[jenna]

Actually as far as I know, there are none. It's always been my understanding that many people believe in the trinity as a 3-in-1 God, though I never could figure out why, since no scripture I know of states this.

[jenna]

Ok, I think we posted our messages at the same time? Can you give me some scriptures to look up?

[Kurieuo]

Actually as far as I know, there are none. It's always been my understanding that many people believe in the trinity as a 3-in-1 God, though I never could figure out why, since no scripture I know of states this.

To quote specific portions at the links I provided which identify the Holy Spirit as a person:

II. Who Is The Holy Spirit?

A. The Holy Spirit Is A Person

We might shirk that the Spirit is merely a power, a force, or an "it", when in fact, Scripture reveals that the Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Spirit is a person in the same sense that God the Father is a person, and the Lord Jesus Christ is a person.

1. He Acts As A Person

a. He teaches (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13)

b. He testifies (John 15:26)

c. He guides into all truth, He hears, speaks, shows (John 16:13)

d. He prays for us (Romans 8:26)

2. He Has The Attributes of A Person

"What constitutes the essentials of personality? Usually three things - a person must possess intelligence, emotions, and will. A thing lacks these, but the Holy Spirit is not a thing because He has intelligence, emotions and will".

a. Intelligence -

The Spirit knows the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10-11)

b. Emotions -

The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30, and He loves Christians (Romans 15:30). Both emotions are experienced by a person not a thing or power.

c. Will -

The Spirit gives gifts to men as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11)

3. He Can Be Treated As A Person, Since He can be ...

a. Lied to (Acts 5:3)

b. Tested (Acts 5:9)

c. Resisted (Acts 7:51)

d. Grieved (Ephesians 4:3 0)

e. Outraged (Hebrews 10:29)

f. Blasphemed Against (Matthew 12:31)

g. Called Upon (Ezekiel 37:9)

http://www.godandscience.org/discovery/chapter5.html

and

The Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit
Characteristic / Verses
Abides in our presence Haggai 2:5, John 14:17
Admonishes us Nehemiah 9:30
Allows men to judge righteously Numbers 11:17, Judges 3:10, Micah 3:8
Allows us to enter the kingdom of God John 3:5
Baptizes believers Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 11:16, 1 Corinthians 12:13
Bears our burdens Numbers 11:17
Bears witness to our conscience Romans 9:1, Hebrews 10:15, 1 John 5:7, 8
Believers are born of John 3:5, 6, 8, Galatians 4:29
Believers pray in Ephesians 6:18, Jude 1:20
Believers walk by Galatians 5:25
Believers worship in Philippians 3:3
Blasphemy against is the only capital crime Matthew 12:32, Luke 12:10
Brings us into obedience Ezekiel 36:27
Can be insulted Hebrews 10:29
Can be lied to Acts 5:3
Can be put to the test Acts 5:9
Can be resisted by hardened hearts Acts 7:51, 1 Thesselonians 5:19
Can be tasted by non-believers Hebrews 6:4
Can exist in bodily form Luke 3:22, John 1:32
Casts out demons Matthew 12:28
Causes us to fear and revere God Isaiah 11:2
Causes us to follow God's chosen leaders 1 Chronicles 12:18
Changes our hearts Romans 2:29
Changes us 1 Samuel 10:6
Comforts believers Acts 9:31
Confesses Jesus 1 John 3:24
Confirms is we are children of God Romans 8:16, 1 John 3:24, 4:13
Confirms the deity of Jesus 1 Corinthians 12:4
Convicts non-believers of the truth of the Gospel 1 Corinthians 2:4, 1 Thesselonians 1:5
Counsels us Isaiah 11:2
Creator Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalms 104:30
Determines what is good Acts 15:28
Directed Jesus Mark 1:12, 3:29
Directs our paths Judges 11:29, Luke 2:27, Acts 13:4, Romans 8:4, 13
Directs our thoughts Romans 8:5
Eternal John 14:16, Hebrews 9:14
Father Matthew 10:20
Father of Jesus Matthew 1:18, 20, Luke 1:35
Fills believers Luke 1:15, 41, 2:25, Acts 4:8, 4:31, 6:3, 6:5, 7:55, 9:17, 13:9, 52, Ephesians 5:18
Forbids believers Acts 16:6, 7, 21:4
Frees believers from the law Galatians 5:18
Gathers God's people together Isaiah 34:16
Gave joy to Jesus Luke 10:21
Gave power to Jesus Luke 4:14
Gave the law to us Zechariah 7:12
Given as a gift to believers Acts 2:38, 10:45, Romans 5:5
Given by God Isaiah 48:16, 63:11, Acts 5:32, 15:8, 1 Corinthians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 3:3, 5:5 Galatians 3:5, 4:61 Thesselonians 4:8, 1 John 3:24
Given by Jesus Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, John 3:34, John 7:39, 15:26, 16:7, 20:22
Given by the Father John 14:26, Acts 2:33
Given to those who ask through prayer Luke 11:13, Acts 8:15
Gives authority to believers Acts 20:28
Gives courage to us Micah 3:8
Gives faith to believers Acts 11:24, 1 Corinthians 12:9, Galatians 5:22
Gives fellowship to believers 2 Corinthians 13:14, Philippians 2:1
Gives grace to believers Zechariah 12:10, Hebrews 10:29
Gives hope to believers Romans 15:13
Gives joy to believers Acts 13:52, Romans 14:17, Galatians 5:22, 1 Thesselonians 1:6
Gives kindness to believers Galatians 5:22
Gives knowledge to us Exodus 31:3, 35:31, Isaiah 11:2, Acts 6:3, 10, 1 Corinthians 12:8
Gives leadership abilities to men Judges 6:34
Gives life (eternal) to believers Ezekiel 37:14, John 6:63, Romans 8:2, 8:6, 11, 13, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Galatians 6:8
Gives love to believers Romans 15:30, Galatians 5:22
Gives patience to believers Galatians 5:22
Gives peace to believers Isaiah 32:15, Romans 8:6, 14:17, Galatians 5:22
Gives power to believers Micah 3:8, Acts 1:8, Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:4, Ephesians 3:16, 4:3, 1 Thesselonians 1:5
Gives rest to us Isaiah 63:14
Gives spiritual gifts Acts 2:4, 19:6, Romans 8:23, 1 Corinthians 12:4, 7, 8, 9, 11, Galatians 5:22, Hebrews 2:4
Gives strength to us Judges 11:29, 14:6, 19, 15:14, Isaiah 11:2, Ephesians 3:16
Gives understanding to us Exodus 31:3, 35:31, Isaiah 11:2, Acts 6:3, 10
Gives unity to believers Ephesians 4:3
Gives wisdom to us Exodus 31:3, 35:31, Isaiah 11:2, Acts 6:3, 10, 1 Corinthians 12:8
Gospel preached through 1 Peter 1:12
Grieved by rebellion Isaiah 63:10, Ephesians 4:30
Guides our words Psalms 106:33, Luke 12:12
Guides us 1 Kings 18:12, John 16:13, Galatians 5:16, 17, 25
Has a mind Romans 8:27
Has a will 1 Corinthians 12:11
Indwells believers Matthew 22:43, John 3:6, Romans 8:9, Ephesians 2:22, 2 Timothy 1:14, James 4:5
Indwelt Jesus Matthew 3:16, Matthew 12:18, Mark 1:10, John 1:32,Acts 10:38
Instructs and teaches us Nehemiah 9:20, Psalms 143:10
Intercedes for believers through prayer Romans 8:26, 27
Is glory 2 Corinthians 3:8
Is God Exodus 31:3, 35:31, Numbers 24:2,Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 14:6, 19, 15:14 1 Samuel 10:6, 10, 11:6, 16:13, 14, 19:20, 23, 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12, 22:24, 2 Kings 2:16, 2 Chronicles 15:1, 18:23, 20:14, 24:20, Isaiah 11:2, 40:13, 61:1, 63:14, Ezekiel 11:5, 24, 37:1, Micah 2:7, 3:8, Matthew 3:16, 12:28, Luke 4:18, Acts 5: 3-4, 9, 8:39, 10:38Romans 8:9, 14, 1 Corinthians 2:11, 14, 3:16, 6:11, 7:40, 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:3, 8, Ephesians 4:30, Philippians 3:3, 1 John 4:2
Is holy Romans 1:4
Is Jesus/Christ Acts 16:7, Romans 1:4, 8:9, 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18, Galatians 4:6, Philippians 1:19, 1 Peter 1:11
Is life Romans 8:2
Is not directed or counseled Isaiah 40:13
Is our ally Isaiah 30:1
Is power Micah 3:8, Luke 1:35, 4:14, Romans 15:13, 19, Ephesians 3:16
Is the Father Matthew 10:20
Is the love of God Romans 5:5
Is the presence of God Psalms 51:11
Is the word of God Ephesians 6:17
Is truth John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 5:7
Justifies believers 1 Corinthians 6:11
Lead Jesus Luke 4:1
Leads believers Judges 13:25, 1 Samuel 11:6, 16:13, Isaiah 63:14, Psalms 143:10, Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:16, 2 Peter 1:21
Lives in believers John 14:17, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19, 7:40, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 3:3
Makes us "sons/children of God" Romans 8:14, 16
Makes us righteous Romans 14:17
Manifested in believers 1 Corinthians 12:7
Non-believers are without Jude 1:19
Not directed our counseled Isaiah 40:13
Not understood by unbelievers 1 Corinthians 2:14
Omnipresent Psalms 139:7
Omniscient 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11
Opposes the flesh Galatians 5:17
Part of the covenant Isaiah 59:21
Physically transports believers 2 Kings 2:16, Ezekiel 3:12, Ezekiel 3:24, Ezekiel 8:3, Ezekiel 11:1, 24, Ezekiel 37:1, Ezekiel 43:5, Acts 8:39, Revelation 17:3, 21:10
Poured out from heaven Isaiah 32:15, 44:3, Ezekiel 39:29, Joel 2:28, 29, Zechariah 12:10, Acts 10:44-45, 11:15, Romans 5:5
Promised to believers Haggai 2:5, Acts 2:33, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Galatians 3:14, Ephesians 1:13
Protects us from evil spirits 1 Samuel 16:14
Provides access to the Father Ephesians 2:18
Received by believers Acts 10:47
Received by faith Galatians 3:2, 14, 5:5
Regenerates and renews believers Titus 3:5
Represents the new covenant 2 Corinthians 3:6
Resurrected Jesus Romans 8:11
Resurrects believers Romans 8:11
Reveals prophecy Numbers 11:25, 26, 29, 24:2, 1 Samuel 10:6, 10, 19:20, 23, Joel 2:28, Zechariah 7:12, Matthew 22:43, John 16:13, Acts 2:17, 11:28, 19:6, Ephesians 3:5, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 9:8, 1 Peter 1:11, 2 Peter 1:21, Revelation 1:10, 2:11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22, 4:2, 14:13
Reveals visions Numbers 24:2, Ezekiel 8:3, 11:24, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17, 7:55, Revelation 4:2
Sanctifies believers Galatians 3:3, 2 Thesselonians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2
Sanctifies our works Romans 15:16
Savior/Redeemer Romans 8:11-15, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30
Seals believers 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30
Sent as a pledge 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5
Service to God is through Romans 7:6
Sets us free Romans 8:2, 2 Corinthians 3:17
Speaks the word of God 2 Chronicles 24:14, 20, Ezekiel 11:5, Luke 3:22, Hebrews 3:7
Speaks to us 2 Samuel 23:2, 1 Kings 22:24, 2 Chronicles 18:23, Luke 2:26, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2, 20:23, 21:11, Colossians 1:8, Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22, 14:13, 22:17
Stirs us into action Judges 13:25,1 Samuel 11:6
Strives with man Genesis 6:3
Teaches the will of God Psalms 143:10, Isaiah 30:1
Teaches us Luke 12:12, John 14:26, John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:12, 13
Vindicated Jesus 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 9:14
Witness of Jesus' death and resurrection Acts 5:32

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/spiritgod.html

[Kurieuo]

Ok, I think we posted our messages at the same time? Can you give me some scriptures to look up?

I thought so too.

[jenna]

Oh, boy and WOW! i definitely have my homework cut out for me tonite! I never knew all this existed. Guess I asked the wrong person... NOT! I'm gonna enjoy this!

[Byblos]

Ok, good question! For clarification, yes, I believe Jesus is God. However, there is God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). As far as the trinity goes, I believe there are only two Beings in the Godhead, The Father and The Son. Yes, I do believe in the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe that it is a person or third part in the trinity in that sense. The Holy Spirit is the mind of God, not an actual being. Hope this helps some.

Yes, it does clarify things a bit more. As far as Jesus is concerned, I also remember you stating you do believe Jesus is eternal. Do you believe he was eternal before he was born physically? If so, do you then believe in two gods (hence my question regarding monotheism) or is your theology more on the modalism side? (take your time, I know you're busy with H.S. scriptures now).

[jenna]

I believe that Jesus WAS, He IS, and always will be. As far as 2 gods, I believe that Jesus is God the Son, and God is God the Father. I don't know what modalism is yet.

[jenna]

Ok. I did not read all the verses, but here are some of the ones you gave me. John 14:26 " But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things I said to you". This is actually not speaking of a person. It is through the Holy Spirit that God teaches us. A person without the Holy Spirit has no hope of understanding God's words. The Spirit will be sent since Christ would no longer be on earth. John 15:26 " But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth that proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me". This verse is pretty much self-explanatory. The "Helper" here is the Spirit of Truth, or the Spirit of God. (God's Spirit). John 16:3 " However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come." God's Spirit helps guide us, so we can understand spiritual things. God's Spirit in our minds is what allows us to comprehend God's ways. Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered". God's Spirit helps us in our weakness through His strength. It also helps us to learn correct ways of prayer. 1Cor. 2:10 "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of a man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God." This verse is fully explained simply by verse 16. "For who has known the MIND OF THE LORD that he may instruct Him? But we have the MIND OF CHRIST" So the Holy Spirit is the Mind Of God, or Christ. This may make more sense to read all verses together. 10-16. Eph. 4:30. "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the Day of Redemption". This does not mean the Holy Spirit can feel grief. This means do not be saddened by the Holy Spirit, by God's ways. Humans naturally do not want to obey God. 1Cor. 4-11 "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences in ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifistation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all; for the one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpreting of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one as He wills." To all these people God gives the gift of His Spirit. This is not a person here, obviously a person could not be "distributed" . Acts 5:3,9. "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? v9. "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord?" Here, Peter was in a sense, asking "how can you lie to or test ME? Peter had the Spirit of God in him. Acts 7:51. "You always resist the Holy Spirit, as did your fathers, so did you." Humans have always resisted God's ways, it is our nature to do so. Heb. 10:29. "Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of Grace? Here man has taken a common object, made it "holy", and by doing so has insulted God, saying in effect, " your covenant does not matter to me, I have made this object holy and that is what I worship, not You." Matthew 12:31-32. "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come". To knowingly speak against the Holy Spirit is to deny the power of God. Eze. 37:9. Also He said to me, "prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, "thus says the Lord God, "come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live". Breath here is referring to the Breath, or life, of God. (not a person here either.) Luke 3:22. "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him" God's Spirit here was made visible to all people so that they could see God's blessing of Jesus. This was "like a dove", which we all know is a SYMBOL of peace. This also covers John 1:32.

[jenna]

Ok, I have a few more points. I hope this is read with an open mind, because I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs. I am merely showing why I believe what I believe. First, if the Holy Spirit is not a being, why call it "He"? This is strictly circumstantial. If we are to literally take it as a "He", then we should also believe the earth and moon are female (Isaiah 13:13, Matthew 24:29) and the sun is a male. (Rev. 1:16). Also, if we are to believe the Holy Spirit is a being, then should not man's spirit be a being as well? (Job 32:8, 1Cor. 2:11) God has a Spirit, and man has a spirit. With the trinity logic, is it not logical to conclude that MAN'S spirit is a "being" as well, which means that there would be another person or "being" dwelling within each person? Yet another question: can the Holy Spirit actually feel emotion? On way of looking at this is in the phrase "don't stress the system". The "system" is the embodiment of the world as we know it. Can the "system" actually feel stress? Read Romans 8:22. Are we actually to believe that the planet groans and is in pain? 1Cor. 11:14. Is nature running an academic curriculum? These are the words of a POET, attributing emotions to things that obviously have none. Yet another point: Characteristics of the Spirit: Can a "being" be distributed among others? (Acts 2:4)Can a "being " be poured out? No, only the Spirit of God can. (V:9) The Spirit is not an actual "being". It is God's Presence, His power. (Psalms 139:7-10) Christians are given a measure of grace or Spirit. Can a "being" be measured out? No, but a measure of power, or Spirit, can. (Phil. 1:19) The Holy Spirit needs to be renewed. (Titus 3:5) This is referring to the Spirit at work in a person's mind. To renew it means to keep it current or active. There are many analogies of the Holy Spirit: God's word likens it to: Wind- (Acts 2:2), calls it a "comforter" (John 14:26), as fire, (Acts 2:3-4), it can be "quenched", (1Thess. 5:19) As water, (John 7:38-39) It is a GIFT (Acts 2:38). So what exactly is the Holy Spirit? It is neither one-third of a single God-being, nor a separate entity of a triune god. The Holy Spirit is the life, (the very mind) of God. Jesus lived by the Spirit of the Father dwelling within Him. Just as the Father dwelled within Christ through the Holy Spirit and gave Him life, so Christ lives in us and gives us power. (John 5:26, 6:57) Remember the saying "By the POWER vested in me"? By the Holy Spirit vested in me! (Acts 1:8, Romans 15:13) I realize that I'm probably going to get a lot of static for this, but as I stated earlier, I am NOT trying to change beliefs here. I am simply pointing out why I believe what I do and why.

[Byblos]

Hey Jen, I'm not sure if you answered this yet but I have another question for you: how do you interpret scripture regarding the "unpardonable sin", i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mat 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-30, Luke 12:10)? And if the Holy Spirit is not the third person of the Godhead, why did Jesus make the specific distinction to the Holy Spirit and not directly to God the Father?

[jenna]

To speak against the Holy Spirit is to knowingly deny the power of God. Notice the context of Christ's warning. He had just cast out a demon (Matt. 12:22), and the pharisees accused Him of performing this miracle by the power of Satan (v24). They recognized that He was God, yet accused Him anyway. Notice John "3:2 Nicodemus came to Jesus by night and said unto Him, "Rabbi, WE KNOW that You are a teacher come from God, for no man can can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him." Nicodemus said "We know", referring to himself and the other Pharisees. Since these leaders were well aware of the power by which Christ performed miracles, He warned against blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The other way to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to allow it to be quenched after having received it. (Hebrews 6:4-6) When one's eyes have been opened to God's truth and he continues to sin willfully- to ignore God's warnings within his mind- he WILL eventually lose it. Once this happens, he has commited the unforgiveable sin. Hope this answers your question.