Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
An interesting note about the heights of some of these giants.. Most translations read that Goliath was about nine feet six inches tall (later Septuagint manuscripts and the Masoretic texts). But when you look at the Dead Sea Scroll versions they put the heights in a more believable height zone...
Quote: "There are significant differences between the Masoretic (Hebrew), Septuagint (Greek), and Dead Sea Scrolls versions of 1 Samuel 17.[3] One of the most interesting of these relates to Goliath's height: 4QSam(a), the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel, gives the height of Goliath as "four cubits and a span," (about six feet six inches), and this is what the 4th century CE Septuagint manuscripts and the 1st century CE historian Josephus also record. Later Septuagint manuscripts and the Masoretic texts read "six cubits and a span," about nine feet six inches."
Source: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath
One of the tallest recorded human beings was Robert Wadlow at almost 9 ft tall (8 feet 11.09 inches). Maybe a son of Goliath?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Hmmm... Here is that Josephus record about the height of Goliath. You will find it in book VI, Chapter IX, verse 1.
Quote: "Now there came down a man out of the camp of the Philistines, whose name was Goliath, of the city of Gath, a man of vast bulk, for he was of four cubits and a span in tallness, (about six feet six inches) and had about him weapons suitable to the largeness of his body, for he had a breastplate on that weighed five thousand shekels: he had also a helmet and greaves of brass, as large as you would naturally suppose might cover the limbs of so vast a body."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Six feet, six inches tall? That may be taller than the average man, but it still isn't really tall enough to be considered a "giant". Has man gotten taller through the years? How could this be considered a giant?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them
jenwat3 wrote:Six feet, six inches tall? That may be taller than the average man, but it still isn't really tall enough to be considered a "giant". Has man gotten taller through the years? How could this be considered a giant?
Well, from what I know about that, people are gradually getting bigger.. Who knows what the average height of a normal person was back then. Abraham Lincoln at 6' 4" was considered a giant among his peers at the time of the civil war. Now 6' 4" is becoming more of an average height.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
jenwat3 wrote:Six feet, six inches tall? That may be taller than the average man, but it still isn't really tall enough to be considered a "giant". Has man gotten taller through the years? How could this be considered a giant?
Well, from what I know about that, people are gradually getting bigger.. Who knows what the average height of a normal person was back then. Abraham Lincoln at 6' 4" was considered a giant among his peers at the time of the civil war. Now 6' 4" is becoming more of an average height.
Pituitary gigantism has been around. I wouldn't necessary discount the nine feet estimate, given the mystery of these characters...
Ok, I had a post here but it has now been deleted and for anyone that saw it I apologize in a big way and hope you did not take offense. May God forgive me for posting it on a Christian forum.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them
zoegirl wrote:Pituitary gigantism has been around. I wouldn't necessary discount the nine feet estimate, given the mystery of these characters...
That is true, but from what I understand about giantism when you get to a certain height (over 7 feet) you start having a severe loss of mobility. Which means that the Nephilim must have been superhuman in some way that deifies science...
The following comes from Reason's to Believe...
RTB: wrote: "In addition to the enormous weight of weapons and armor the Nephilim were able to carry, their great stature, if our values for biblical cubits are accurate, supersedes human capabilities and the limits of biological engineering. The bone mass necessary to support the muscles and resist the effects of gravity rises geometrically with height Gust as the weight of a building's supporting beams goes up geometrically with the length of the span they support). This ratio implies an increasingly severe loss of mobility and stamina once human height exceeds about eight feet.
We see verification of this loss in the case of the tallest documented modern human, a victim of a growth-hormone malfunction who reached eight feet, eleven inches. This man moved so slowly and with such difficulty that he could not participate in sports. He died at age forty from physical exhaustion.
The sport of basketball provides further verification. The ease with which a player can score a basket goes up with the square of his height (because the range of shooting angles that will score increases with the square of the height from which the ball leaves the player's hands). Thus, even a one inch height advantage is huge. This explains why seven-foot tall players tend to be much higher scorers than six-foot tall players. However, basketball players who are seven and a half feet tall tend to move, jump, and dodge with less strength, quickness, and fluidity than those only seven feet tall. Evidently, the shooting advantage gained from the extra half foot of height is not enough to overcome the loss of mobility, agility, and stamina as a result of the increased height.
Given human physiological limits, the Nephilim must have been in some way superhuman. Strictly human bodies cannot manifest this combination of size, power, agility, and endurance. One way to maintain a strictly human interpretation for the Nephilim would be to call into question the weights and measures of David's and Moses' time."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
jenwat3 wrote:Ok, I had a post here but it has now been deleted and for anyone that saw it I apologize in a big way and hope you did not take offense. May God forgive me for posting it on a Christian forum.
Hmmm? Don't look at me... Your posts look fine to me.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Not looking at you, G. I deleted it myself, it was a very un-christian thing to post, and I am ashamed for having posted it, much less even thinking about it.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them
you're absolutely right about the loss of mobility. I guess my point was that that height was at least possible. I doubt pituitary gigantism was the actual cause, but certainly things were pretty unusual and something was going on with the physiology. It could be that 6 or 7 feet were considered gigantic.
you're absolutely right about the loss of mobility. I guess my point was that that height was at least possible. I doubt pituitary gigantism was the actual cause, but certainly things were pretty unusual and something was going on with the physiology. It could be that 6 or 7 feet were considered gigantic.
Thanks.. Yes it's hard to put a finger on this one. Is there a goof somewhere in the translation or is this something supernatural? It's hard to tell... Who knows...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Since nephilim are hybrids we have to assume the DNA is different. So we don't know if the increased height would effect their movement as much as normal humans. Giraffes are pretty tall and seem to run just fine.
The cubit is probably around 17.5 inches although in Roman times it was 21 ft 6 inches. For the size of Goliath I have to believe he was substantialy bigger than the average guy.
The Septuagent was written around 280 BC and was the text that was in use during the times of Christ. The old Testament from the Jews was changed around 90 AD by the council of Jamnia. It appears that all of the old scrolls were gathered and burned at that time. Some Torahs did manage to escape. The dead sea scrolls are in two groups, those written prior to the council of Jamnia and those after. They clearly show the change to the scripture. The older scrolls support the Septuagent. Oh by the way one of the members on the council thought that he was the messiah. Some very interesting history around this time.
The Church fathers held the idea that the Nephilim were hybrids of fallen angels. They held this view till around 400 AD when Augustine changed the view because some of the new believers had a hard time with it. He was the one who started the Seth / Cain explanation. Most schools still teach this but most scholars go back to the original understanding.
frankbaginski wrote:Just a couple of notes on nephilim.
Since nephilim are hybrids we have to assume the DNA is different. So we don't know if the increased height would effect their movement as much as normal humans. Giraffes are pretty tall and seem to run just fine.
The cubit is probably around 17.5 inches although in Roman times it was 21 ft 6 inches. For the size of Goliath I have to believe he was substantialy bigger than the average guy.
Ok... Yes which puts the story more into more of a sci-fi theme.
frankbaginski wrote:The Septuagent was written around 280 BC and was the text that was in use during the times of Christ. The old Testament from the Jews was changed around 90 AD by the council of Jamnia. It appears that all of the old scrolls were gathered and burned at that time. Some Torahs did manage to escape. The dead sea scrolls are in two groups, those written prior to the council of Jamnia and those after. They clearly show the change to the scripture. The older scrolls support the Septuagent. Oh by the way one of the members on the council thought that he was the messiah. Some very interesting history around this time.
Interesting point... This is what I've been finding too, an alteration of the scripture around that time.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Which begs the question... Was there a possible goof up in the translation of Goliath's stature?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
