A 500 Year Old Map?

[johnt]

Another astonishing subject has hit the head lines today. Apparently a map which is 500 years old and drawn 13 years after Columbus visited the new world is going on public display. In the story it was created by a monk with the help of well known scholars of the time. It just so happens that the continent of South America was drawn almost to its geographical size within less than 100 miles with a large body of water to the west. Being that the other explorers hadn't made that trip does anyone have an idea of what could be up with this? America was used to name some of the land but was changed I think because of political reasons between Spain and Portugal at the time. Reference is also made about Ptolemy (half brother and a general to Alexander the Great) and his writings had something to do with the map itself. Could have the people prior to 200 or 300 bc have know what the earth actually had looked like geographicaly and who might have told them?

[jenna]

Very interesting. And welcome! So the map was drawn 13 years after Colombus, but what about it being around 200 to 300 b.c.? I'm confused...

[johnt]

I do have a question that maybe someone out there can help me with. When I registered to use this board I was asked to classify myself in respects to the creation. I will explain what I believe and maybe someone can help answer that for me. I believe prior to the creation that G-d, Jesus, The Holy Ghost, Angels and all the souls existed. At the beginning of the universe which is when time began all the fore mentioned were void of time because they existed before hand. In Genesis the creation is stated in days but I believe these days were actually sections of time which a day is, but knowing that G-d is not on a plane of time the description of days could have well been millions of years as we as men know them. Take for instance the word eternity, forever right? Not tomorrow or a year or 10 billion years from now but forever. It is also said that the universe as we know it is expanding at almost the speed of light and the reason we as humans can't tell is that everything we can see and sense is altogether moving along together towards the end. This I do believe without any doubt. We do know that animals do not have a soul which is revealed in The Book of Jobe. So if we did come from apes or if we are 6000 to 200000 years old what difference does it make? Some where along the line G-d determined to plant a soul in a creature and called him Adam and likewise planted another soul in another creature whether or not it was from Adam and called her Eve. So I do believe that yes Adam and Eve were the first. The twist is that G-d created everything and just maybe by his design apes were just a proto type and he continued to modify them until he felt it was right to plant those souls. From then on at conception souls continued to be planted. Does this make any sense? If it does where do I fall on the creation scale?

[johnt]

Very interesting. And welcome! So the map was drawn 13 years after Colombus, but what about it being around 200 to 300 b.c.? I'm confused...

Well Ptolemy was a well known geographer between 200 and 300 bc and when this group was summoned together they used some of his writings. I'm sorry wrong Ptolemy!! The Ptolemy the article was referring to was a geographer,astronomer and mathematician that lived just after the time of Jesus between 83 ad and 163 ad in Roman Egypt. The first Ptolemy Happened to be Alexanders half brother who declared himself king of Egypt between 200 and 300 bc. Sorry about the confusion it's getting late.

[JCSx2]

So I do believe that yes Adam and Eve were the first. The twist is that G-d created everything and just maybe by his design apes were just a proto type and he continued to modify them until he felt it was right to plant those souls.

Wow I have been throwing that idea around in my head for a bit.

[johnt]

There is one thing that I'm very certain of and that is time is a measurement created by man. G-d, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are timeless and maybe we should relate to them in that fashion. What I mean by that is not "oh it's 10 I need to talk to Jesus" but keep them in our mind and heart always. Good day or bad--- just every waking moment, every breath. Try it it really does work!! Just don't move your lips ( caught you) just kidding. Try it when you wake before you know it, it will be just like breathing. It just so happens to be very refreshing to have them with you always. Good night and G-d Bless.

[frankbaginski]

Here is some info on a voyage before Columbus.

"Columbus sailed to America in St. Maria (eighty-five feet) in 1492. Zheng He sailed from China to many places throughout South Pacific, Indian Ocean, Taiwan, Persian Gulf and distant Africa in seven epic voyages from 1405 to 1433 ,some 80 years before Columbus's voyages."

It may be that some maps were passed around before Columbus sailed. If so it may explain the map. It is interesting reading about Zheng He.

[johnt]

Here is some info on a voyage before Columbus.

"Columbus sailed to America in St. Maria (eighty-five feet) in 1492. Zheng He sailed from China to many places throughout South Pacific, Indian Ocean, Taiwan, Persian Gulf and distant Africa in seven epic voyages from 1405 to 1433 ,some 80 years before Columbus's voyages."

It may be that some maps were passed around before Columbus sailed. If so it may explain the map. It is interesting reading about Zheng He.

Frank, I just finished reading about Zheng He and it was very interesting. The issue is that for such a great explorer and leader after his death the Chinese decided to scrape on a large scale any further explorations. There is a map in question although it is said to be on paper from the 1700's and a copy of a map from the 1400's the ink used does not pass the test and also some of the map features and inscriptions were not of the time but much later than even the 1700's. The owner of the map has been asked to withdraw the authenticity of the map from his site on the internet. The other issue is that the Treasure ships which were part of this armada were so huge that research had been done recently and proved that they were not fit to navigate the open oceans but were able to navigate in coastal waters. The size of these Chinese Junks was almost that of an aircraft carrier with nine masts and 4 or 5 levels. Zheng He was a Muslum, has been given credit for great works of charity and was responsible for establishing many Mosques in South East Asia. As well as the Chinese are at record keeping I wonder why this great mans achievments have been sort of surpressed. Could have it been his Belief in G-d?

[frankbaginski]

The Chinese have a different mindset than we do. I am not so sure that the rulers of China really cared about exploring. Even today the mindset of the Chinese is vastly different than western culture. As for the maps, who knows. Most old documents are copies of earlier documents. Take the dead sea scrolls, if they happened to be with a religous sect then when they got old they would have been copied and the originals tossed. We have several old papyrus that are copies of copies. Only the subject matter allows us to date the original and of course there is a wide breath of opinions on that. Once we take off our western hat we are open to other possibilities. We know the Vikings came to America, maybe the Chinese also. We do know that ocean canoes were known to travel vast open areas of the ocean. It is very likely that cultures that did not keep records did many things we would be amazed at. The historical record is so incomplete, it is rare to have a document survive at all. Even the clay tablets found in Neveveh only survived the ages because the place was burned down and the room they were in baked them hard. Because the record is so incomplete people with any agenda can piece together a history to support their views. It is a swamp out there in the world of information. The only document I trust completely is the Bible, with of course the known errors removed. What matters most is what path we choose to take in life and how we treat others. Once we have our path to faith firmly planted on bedrock then the quest for knowledge of history and world events is interesting but not earth shattering no matter what you uncover.

[johnt]

Frank you have hit the nail on the head. The other evening as I lay awake I started to think about the creation as I have been reading the posts on "young earth-old universe". It gave me somewhat of a headache. Finally something clicked and realized what difference does it make how old things are and why do men try very hard to figure out things that in reality don't matter except for in conversation. Jesus told us that only through him and by our acceptance is the way to the Father. If we do that one very simple thing, follow his way and just let go we will have everlasting life through Him. Pretty simple I think but for almost 2000 years a majority of folks just don't get it. I do think if more people would just follow this very simple message the world we live in would be so much better off and frankly a very nice place to visit. That's all we are doing here in the first place is just paying a brief visit.