A quote from Friedrich Nietzsche

[godslanguage]

"Christian morality: does it not seem that one will has dominated Europe for eighteen centuries, the will to make of man a sublime abortion?

The Christian resolve to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

Does anyone else completely disagree with this statement. Your opinions

[Canuckster1127]

"Christian morality: does it not seem that one will has dominated Europe for eighteen centuries, the will to make of man a sublime abortion?

The Christian resolve to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

Does anyone else completely disagree with this statement. Your opinions

Well, obviously Nietzsche thought he had a better way to run the railroad than what had been tried before.

What came from his philosophy carried out to its logical conclusion?

Does the name, Adolph Hitler, ring a bell? Hitler based much of his ideology of a Superman, or master race on Nietzche's thinking.

There is no question that many atrocities and abuses of power have taken place within the structure of the Church and its partnership in the past with state power. There is no doubt as well that where power exists institutionally, there will be those who seek to raise within the institution to wield it for their own benefits and hidden agendas.

Nietzsche posited that man is inherently good. He made the argument that when people teach, or assume the evil of men, then that in effect becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So logically, it would follow that the problem is not with man, but that society and religion are teaching and/or conditioning man (I'm using the term collectively, not gender specific), to there predetermined end.

I would argue that for all its flaws and past abuses, which I acknowledge, that the instution of the Church also brought about great good. It was the preservation of the classics primarily through the libraries of the Church Monestaries that alllowed the renaissance and ultimately the reformation to have a foundation upon which to build. Pure religion in the hands of people of good will and with right intentions has provided significant and at times primary support and initiation for hospitals, orphanages, education, political reform, the abolition of slavery, civil rights, etc.

Can it be argued as well that religious belief and institutions have been used improperly? Yes. That is undeniable. What is questionable is if the fault lay in the teachings and values of the institutions or if fallible men, oft times for their own purposes and by means inconsistent with their professed values were responsible.

Examine historically however what has taken place in societies and regimes where religious thought has been banned, and persecuted.

The most horiffic atrocities of the 20th century took place in the gulags, the pograms, the ethnic cleansings, the driving of churches underground, the killing fields etc. This was in the context of professed atheist states. Utopia, it was not. Apparently there is something common to man whether he moves in religious contexts or social contexts that gives rise to abuse of power. Maybe that says something to the assumption that man is inherently good.

The issue is what is the real nature of the heart of man? Insitutional abuses have to measured in the light of what restraint and positive events have occured as well.

When the goodness of man is presumed, and the restraints upon individual power removed, then unfortunately we have seen all to well what must inevitably occur. Lord Acton's maxim applies. "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

[Looking for the Truth]

Nietzche is dead.

Sorry just had to say that

[B. W.]

Nietzche is dead.

Sorry just had to say that

Yep, Nietzsche has been dead since 8/1900 but sadly by now he has eternally discovered that God is not.

Note Quote from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche exhibited signs of a serious mental illness…

…Commentators have frequently diagnosed a syphilitic infection as the cause of the illness; however, some of Nietzsche's symptoms — and the long period before it presumably began affecting his mind — seem inconsistent with typical cases of syphilis. While most commentators regard Nietzsche's breakdown as unrelated to his philosophy, some, including Georges Bataille and René Girard, argue for considering his breakdown as a symptom of a psychological maladjustment brought on by his philosophy.

It is interesting to note that a tree is known by the fruit it produces and Nietzsche's philosophy produced a historically recorded bad crop of madness.

Next

As for religion — any religious belief system can be hijacked for Machiavellian purposes of attaining socio-political-resource-dominance. Some religions are even designed for that purpose by human beings. Again, a tree in known by what it produces.

People have always attempted to demonize Christianity by illustrating only those who hijacked it for political control and resource dominance. The gospel message does not stress attainment of world domination and control. Jesus was tempted by this very thing and rejected it. True Christian believers reject it too. Others can even be mislead but later come to their senses. Jesus did say that his Kingdom was not of this world.

The multitude of unknown saints and ordinary Christians lives are not recorded in the history books, nor are their works of love, charity, hope, faith, devotion, good deeds, providing help and aid, caring, enduring, suffering, listening, raising families, loving their spouses-children by not being bitter toward them and abusing them, maintaining true justice and being a light to a dark world, are not recorded in the headlines of history.

These are those that are the Church and its true fruit: reflecting Christ becauces they know Christ and are known by Christ.
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[madscientist]

As for religion — any religious belief system can be hijacked for Machiavellian purposes of attaining socio-political-resource-dominance. Some religions are even designed for that purpose by human beings. Again, a tree in known by what it produces.

Were you making reference to all other pagan religions - i.e. all excpet christianity? i believe also the same thibg, coz i have no idea watspever why people came to think up gods, lets say, in greek mythology, and then this got more extreme. if people had contact with the TRUE GOD OF CHRISTIANITY, since the beginning of humanity, why starting to make these nonexistent virtual beings??!

People have always attempted to demonize Christianity by illustrating only those who hijacked it for political control and resource dominance. The gospel message does not stress attainment of world domination and control. Jesus was tempted by this very thing and rejected it. True Christian believers reject it too. Others can even be mislead but later come to their senses. Jesus did say that his Kingdom was not of this world.

WHat exactly is the political conteol resource dominance? u were making reference to whta hapened in nazi and communist times, fir example?
Christianity is to expand, and have more and more members. But couldnt that easily interfere with politics, as is the case of muslims, for exmaple?

The multitude of unknown saints and ordinary Christians lives are not recorded in the history books, nor are their works of love, charity, hope, faith, devotion, good deeds, providing help and aid, caring, enduring, suffering, listening, raising families, loving their spouses-children by not being bitter toward them and abusing them, maintaining true justice and being a light to a dark world, are not recorded in the headlines of history.

These are those that are the Church and its true fruit: reflecting Christ becauces they know Christ and are known by Christ.

what exactly u meant by that? that there are some "non recorded saints"? - were you just saying that christianity is criticized but the many people who were good and followed JC are not recorded and seem to be ignored when crhrisitainty is criticezed? thats how i understnatd it...

[B. W.]

As for religion — any religious belief system can be hijacked for Machiavellian purposes of attaining socio-political-resource-dominance. Some religions are even designed for that purpose by human beings. Again, a tree in known by what it produces.

Were you making reference to all other pagan religions - i.e. all excpet christianity? i believe also the same thibg, coz i have no idea watspever why people came to think up gods, lets say, in greek mythology, and then this got more extreme. if people had contact with the TRUE GOD OF CHRISTIANITY, since the beginning of humanity, why starting to make these nonexistent virtual beings??!

Actually all religions are subject to being Hi-jack using Machiavellian means. Jezebel used the priest of Baal to maintain social and political control. Nothing is new with this. Abraham Lincoln said it best during the American Civil War concerning politicians whipping up support by saying — “God is on our side. Lincoln said something like this, “let us not pray that God is on our side but rather ask and seek - are we on God's side?”

People's sin nature twist things to the point of creating gods of their own making and their own image to legitimize lust for power and control of limited resources as well as behavior. Look at the old Greek gods as an example of this. People in power run the risk of having this power go to their heads and it corrupts them. That is why they twist things they way they do.

People have always attempted to demonize Christianity by illustrating only those who hijacked it for political control and resource dominance. The gospel message does not stress attainment of world domination and control. Jesus was tempted by this very thing and rejected it. True Christian believers reject it too. Others can even be mislead but later come to their senses. Jesus did say that his Kingdom was not of this world.

What exactly is the political control resource dominance? You were making reference to what happened in Nazi and communist times, for example?
Christianity is to expand, and have more and more members. But couldn't that easily interfere with politics, as is the case of Muslims, for example?

Yes — it is the struggle of limited recourses and control over people. As for Christianity expanding — it runs the same risk of interfering with and being used by politics and the historical records prove this. Centuries ago, after Muslim conquered Byzantium Eastern Orthodox leadership in Muslim countries were forced by Muslims to be political pawns. Roman Catholic Church also in its past historically interfered with and was used by politics. So were the Protestant Churches. The Church Thyatira in Revelations speaks of such things happening — an imperial Church.

Remember — God's kingdom was not of this world. For Christianity is to expand means to make disciples and converts for a kingdom not of this world. There is much in the bible that speaks of this.

The multitude of unknown saints and ordinary Christians lives are not recorded in the history books, nor are their works of love, charity, hope, faith, devotion, good deeds, providing help and aid, caring, enduring, suffering, listening, raising families, loving their spouses-children by not being bitter toward them and abusing them, maintaining true justice and being a light to a dark world, are not recorded in the headlines of history. These are those that are the Church and its true fruit: reflecting Christ becauces they know Christ and are known by Christ.

What exactly u meant by that? that there are some "non recorded saints"? - were you just saying that Christianity is criticized but the many people who were good and followed JC are not recorded and seem to be ignored when Christianity is criticized? that's how i understand it...

Yes — what I mean by it — is you and I and all the unknown Christians living our lives and learning about Christ and being transformed by the renewing of our minds! No human hand records our history. News is made by the nut fringe and we are left bearing the blame of their folly.
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[JCSx2]

Another quote form Friedrich Nietzsche

God is dead.

A possible quote form God

Friedrich Nietzsche is dead.

Hmmmmmm who won?

[madscientist]

Hmm nice irony there. well nietzsche is dead but his soul isnt... and if he didnt believe in God then i guess his quotes are of not much value but rather biased. but i dont think he even believed he had a soul himself so... according to him God is dead but he is as well. We however, as believers believe that both are alive, God and his soul...

[JCSx2]

Hmm nice irony there. well nietzsche is dead but his soul isnt... and if he didnt believe in God then i guess his quotes are of not much value but rather biased. but i dont think he even believed he had a soul himself so... according to him God is dead but he is as well. We however, as believers believe that both are alive, God and his soul...

A soul that will face torment and pain.

[madscientist]

Hmm yeah most probably... Still, does going to hell then literally means "death"? Interesting because heaven is referred to as "new life" and hell as "death" but in reality we're immortal and we will live, thats sure (well as long as u believe in afterlife). So is this interpretation correct? is hell really death if we suffer there forever?

[FFC]

Super, man!

[jenna]

Hmm yeah most probably... Still, does going to hell then literally means "death"? Interesting because heaven is referred to as "new life" and hell as "death" but in reality we're immortal and we will live, thats sure (well as long as u believe in afterlife). So is this interpretation correct? is hell really death if we suffer there forever?

actually very good question.

[jpenney]

"Christian morality: does it not seem that one will has dominated Europe for eighteen centuries, the will to make of man a sublime abortion?

The Christian resolve to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."

Does anyone else completely disagree with this statement. Your opinions

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I only disagree with the use of the word "Christian" - Christ (reportedly) never tried to find the world ugly and bad. So anyone who does that isn't a Christian in the sense of imitating Christ.

If by "Christian" Nietsche is talking about the members of the churches that falsely call themselves "Christian" (including, probably, most of you here) - then yes, I do agree with him. But that's not unique to Christianity - false religion and the small nature of man have wreaked havoc on all civilizations since the first perverted medicine man molested the first altar-caveboy.

I don't believe in God or that Christ was supernatural, but I hate illogical arguments, and people who start unnecessary ones.

[jenna]

Then why have you started posting in this forum?

[FFC]

Then why have you started posting in this forum?

Good question, Jenna. I have a feeling he won't be posting here long though. Can this also mean bye bye?