believing in Christ

[jenna]

Not entirely, anyway. It is true that we are not saved by works, but if you truly accept Christ you will Live the life He would want you to.

[zoegirl]

Not entirely, anyway. It is true that we are not saved by works, but if you truly accept Christ you will Live the life He would want you to.

I don't disagree with the latter half of what you say. I am only speaking to what establishes us as righteous before God and removes our sin. What saves us from the penaly of sin.

It's the "not entirely" that worries me. We are saved by grace alone, not through works.. ..Whatever works we accomplish are done through the power of Christ as a result of HIs regerative work through us, and a part of the sanctification process, because we are a new creation, out of love for Him.....as Pierac's verses showed, if we love Him..... Our works do nothing whatsoever to establish us righteous to God....Only Christ's work on the cross does that.

[Pierac]

I agree Zoegirl, nothing I do counts as anything towards my salvation. The forgiveness of sin is a gift from God. The following of Jesus is a command, and the fruit of our walk with him will be tested by fire.

Paul

[jenna]

Pierac, sorry to say this, but being tested or baptized by fire is truly something you DO NOT want. I don't have the time now, but I wil explain this later.

[FFC]

Pierac, sorry to say this, but being tested or baptized by fire is truly something you DO NOT want. I don't have the time now, but I wil explain this later.

It may not be something we want but it is a good thing I'm told.

[jenna]

No, sorry, in fact it is a HORRIBLE thing to be "baptised by fire". I'm sure you know of the "lake of fire"?

[FFC]

No, sorry, in fact it is a HORRIBLE thing to be "baptised by fire". I'm sure you know of the "lake of fire"?

Are you sure? I thought it was supposed to symbolize a refiners fire that removes impurities and makes us more like Christ.

[zoegirl]

Refiner's fire.....that's what I thought as well.

I really want to use an emoticon, but .....none really fit

[Swamper]

"Baptism by fire" is what you call it when a soldier goes into battle for the first time...

[jenna]

So John was talking about soldiers in battle when he said Christ will baptise with fire?

[Swamper]

No, but that's what it means nowadays. Just thought I'd point that out and confuse things even more.

[jenna]

And an excellent job you have done!

[jenna]

There are 2 types of baptism- a water baptism and baptism by fire. We all know what the water baptism is, but what exactly is a "fire" baptism? John wrote "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He that comes after me ...shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (Matt.3:11)Notice that a few verses earlier (v.7-8) John was addressing the Pharisees and the Sadducees who were also among the multitudes (v.5) coming to him. He warned them " But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said to them, 'O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the WRATH to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance". Vast numbers of people were listening to John preach. Some were sincere and seeking baptism with the Holy Spirit, and others were, in effect, told they were candidates for baptism with "fire". John knew that both kinds of people were present. He knew the attitude of the Pharisees and Sadducees. These verses connect "fire" with "wrath". Ezekial said "Son of man, the house of Israel is to Me become dross, all they are brass, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore says the Lord God, Because you are all become dross, behold, I will gather you in the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, brass, iron, lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the FIRE upon it, to melt it; so I will gather you in my ANGER and in My FURY and I will leave you there and melt you. Yes, I will gather you and blow upon you in the FIRE OF MY WRATH"... (Ezek. 22:18-21) In Matt. 3:10, John sets the stage for his reference to baptism with fire. "And now the axe is laid to the roots of the trees, therefore every tree that brings not forth GOOD FRUIT is cut down, and cast into the fire." Remember that John called the Pharisees and Sadducees "vipers" and warned them to "bring forth fruit meet (acceptable or suitable) for repentance. In v.12, John continued, "Whose FAN is in His hand, and He will thoroughly PURGE HIS FLOOR and gather His wheat into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable FIRE." The "wheat" represents the true saints of God, and the "chaff" represents the wicked that will be burned up in the lake of fire. To better understand this, read Matt. 13:38-42. (this does not include entire verses) It states "The good seed (wheat) are the children of the kingdom, but the tares (chaff) are the children of the wicked one... the harvest is the end of the world... As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the FIRE, so shall it be in the end of the world... His angels shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of FIRE." When Christ "gathers out of His kingdom all things that offend", Is when He "purges His floor". (Matt.3:12) Do not mistakenly think that Christ will be purging us of sin or chaff in OUR LIVES, or that it is a "refining fire". God's angels are sent to "baptize" the WICKED people who are chaff with fire. When God says He is going to purge (baptize) with fire, He is clearly NOT talking about a process of purifying saints. He is speaking of destroying or burning up sinners with fire. It should be clear why NO ONE wants to be "baptised with fire". When John said Christ shall baptize you, the "you" included both the sinners and those to be saved. The saved would be baptised with His Spirit, the others with FIRE.

[FFC]

...or maybe he was referring to the crowd at Pentacost who were baptised with the holy Spirit evidenced by not only speaking in tongues but tongues of fire appearing over their heads. Fire does not always mean wrath, Jenna.

[jenna]

No, not always. But in this case, it definitely does. This is evident since he (John) was speaking in regards to the Pharisees and Sadducees.