Bush vs. Kerry

[Anonymous]

Ive noticed a bias towards Bush on this web site. You constantly ignore Bush's major faults while bringing up rhetoric about John Kerry. Its one thing to endorse a candidate because he or she fits into your mold, or represents your values, but to completely ignore the facts simply so that you don't have to face the reality is a bit foolish.. Its like cutting off your head.

If standing up for the middle class instead of standing up for big business is wrong, then count me wrong. If making sure our troops have everything they need to successfully win at war is wrong, then count me wrong. If the Constitution should be amended to exclude some people even though the people opposing it are having the worst time in history staying married and are breaking the law of marriage over 66% of the time, then count me wrong. Its important to know which side of the fence you stand on. Because when its your turn to step into the Pearly Gates, those who followed blindly, without realistic reason, and those who left the planet worse than they found it will be turned away.

Its important to remember that if our Constitution is going to be amended to exclude gays from getting married, remember, one day there will be more Mexicans here in the USA that any onther race. If your beliefs do not coincide with their beliefs and views, this most recent precident to exlude some people may in the distant or not so distant future exclude you. We need to love each other.

I urge you to make a list comparing the two candidates. Make a pro and a con column. Write down your beliefs, then do a search on the internet to validate your beliefs.

REMEMBER:: I'd rather go to hell by choice than to stumble into heaven by following the crowd.[/b]

[Jac3510]

Oh please . . . Kerry sticking up for the middle class? You've been listening to too much democratic non-sense

Fact is, in the USA, we vote who we feel would be the best candidate for president, and part of that is voting for the man that most represents your own belief systems. I disagree with Kerry on his economic policies (I'm a die hard capitalist), his foreign policies (I have no interest in any "global tests," and as far as I'm concerned the U.N. can just be disbanded), and I most certainly disagree with his social policies (gay marriage, abortion, etc.).

No politician "sticks up for" (insert class). If the Dem's had half the interest that they claim they do for "the average American," they'd be all about a flat tax and state government where everyone has more of a say in their own choice of residence. Further, their social programs are costing us middle Americans out the wah-zoo . . . thank you, LBJ and the Great Society Programs. :p 'Tis all rhetoric . . . all rhetoric, I say.

Bush/Cheney '04

[/soapbox]



fakeedit: how much you wanna bet this ends up getting moved to the Christian Living board?

[BavarianWheels]

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It is my belief that God will put in charge whom He thinks fits regardless of my vote.

They're both crooks anyway.
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[Anonymous]

Under a Evangelical Christian/Federal Government Program called, “ America for Women, Women for America ”, women's reproductive rights will be overturned and all abortions will be illegal causing millions of unwanted babies to be born to middle class and poor women throughout America . Orphanages will become common and will overflow with orphans. State Budgets will be thrown into turmoil. Planned Parenthood facilities will be raided by Federal Agents and shut down. Wealthy, white Republican conservatives will travel to Sweden to obtain abortions. An illegal “back-alley” abortion here in the U.S. will cost $15,000. Thousands of women will die every year. The Catholic Church will lobby President Bush to make the sale of condoms illegal. Its rallying cry will be “Life Prevention Is Murder---Save Life---For God”. Condom use or possession will be a misdemeanor.

[BavarianWheels]

Under a Evangelical Christian/Federal Government Program called, ...

So much for separation of church and state...
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[Jac3510]

Under a Evangelical Christian/Federal Government Program called, “ America for Women, Women for America ”, women's reproductive rights will be overturned and all abortions will be illegal causing millions of unwanted babies to be born to middle class and poor women throughout America . Orphanages will become common and will overflow with orphans. State Budgets will be thrown into turmoil. Planned Parenthood facilities will be raided by Federal Agents and shut down. Wealthy, white Republican conservatives will travel to Sweden to obtain abortions. An illegal “back-alley” abortion here in the U.S. will cost $15,000. Thousands of women will die every year. The Catholic Church will lobby President Bush to make the sale of condoms illegal. Its rallying cry will be “Life Prevention Is Murder---Save Life---For God”. Condom use or possession will be a misdemeanor.

1) Source?
2) All of it is debatable.
3) Obvious response: keep killin the children, of course. Hey, let's kill the old people while we're at it.

It is my belief that God will put in charge whom He thinks fits regardless of my vote.

Are you sure you aren't a Calvinist?

Bah, I'm moving this . . .

[Kurieuo]

If true, that's great news (got a source?). Women still have "reproductive" rights and the meaning that entails. "All" life should be protected. As for the ban of condoms... I have my suspicions that may have been exaggerated by the annoyed author.

Kurieuo.

[BavarianWheels]

It is my belief that God will put in charge whom He thinks fits regardless of my vote.

Are you sure you aren't a Calvinist?

Bah, I'm moving this . . .

If it would make things easier on you, I can just "say" I'm a Calvinist if you like...otherwise...No.

Can God not do as He pleases? Or is He bound by our decisions and/or prayers? Is it not God's will be done and not ours?
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[Jac3510]

If it would make things easier on you, I can just "say" I'm a Calvinist if you like...otherwise...No.

Can God not do as He pleases? Or is He bound by our decisions and/or prayers? Is it not God's will be done and not ours?
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If it looks, walks, talks, and smells like a horse, must be a horse . It's just that you keep taking their side on things is all. No offense intended.

Anyway, of course God can do as He pleases, but one of the things He pleases is to do is give men free will. You are going to insist that God puts evil men in power for various reasons, but ultimately, it has to be to glorify His name (i.e., Pharaoh with Moses). Well, that's a strong push on God's sovereignty, to say that humans have no control over who rules them. It simply ignores their free will in the process . . . I just don't think God works that way.

*shrug*

[The edge]

I've watch some of debate #2 & read up some bits abt the election.
I've no right to vote, but have deep interest in who'll be taking over.

Here's my views:
Abortion:
I'm in Bush side as far as abortion is concern. There is no excuse for those who chose to have sex & not take the needed precautions .... married & especially the unmarried.
As for those who were abuse, I sympathize with their situation. But a life is still a life. No one has the right to take it away. .... Even if it's deformed.

Gay:
I like Bush answers: that he do not know if being gay is a choice (he's being honest since it's still debatable), but that it's just simply not right in the eyes of God. To me it's a choice. Whether we're wired this way or that, it's still a choice to be a practicing one. Tell those who've "violent or criminal gene" in them (if there's really such a thing), that they should just behave in the way they've been wired.

Iraq:
It was an unfinished war in the 1st place. UN was just incompetent in getting their inspectors in. With the possibility of having MWD, who wants to take chances. Yes, there was intelligence failure & being the President, Bush need to be accountable, but was it really his fault?
Staging the troups there was inevitable. So was the war, unfortunately, becos of the staging. Condition was becoming unfavorable to just sit still. Maintenance cost increasing, troups morale deteriorating. Look back at those time just before Gulf 2 begins. Yes, it was a pity that not all countries were behind US this time. I do wish the war had not taken place.....but was there really a choice, when all the cards are laid down? Calculated decision have to be made. Kerry supported it. So let's stick to the guns instead of back-tracking when things goes wrong.
There may have been other reasons for the war...oil...changing the political climate in the middle east, introducing/imposing democracy (this one I disagree) ....all of which if true, could not be openly debated or made known.
Yes, in retrospect, even if it may have been a mistake, one just can't say so. How would the Iraqis feel? How would the rest of the world govt who supported US be able to answer to their countrymen? Supporting countries will feel betrayed if US now said it was a wrong war. These same countries will hesitate to show their support again in the future.

War support & Budget Deficit
While Kerry says that he'll send in the best equip troups, have he got any real measure? Bush is approving huge budget to support the war effort, tho this is hurting the budget....& yet Kerry want to blame Bush for wasting billions in the budget. I'd say: Kerry, dun vote for the war & say that you'll give the soldiers the best support, if u're not prepared to spent billions from the budget. Similarly, part of the budget deficit is due to the war effort as well as the needed funds to inject into the economy to revive it.

Taxes.
I dun think I'm in a position to say this. But it's here I dun agree with both candidates. Why are people so adverse to raising tax? Stop playing to the Short Term goals of winning the election. US is the world's biggest debtor now. What choice do you have but to raise tax & reduce spending. Forget about those empty promise about taxes. Tell people what u intend to do & explain why. The deficit will cost US greatly if it's not being addressed by painful measure. Then again, there's the fear that raising taxes will lead to reduce spending, which in turn lead to reduce demand.....hurting economy growth....further hurting budget.

Economy.
Unfortunately like Bush senior, Bush junior really inherited an economy which is already completing it's 7yrs cycle of boom. Clinton was a lucky guy who come in at the right time (Boom yrs). Do you really think a President can have such strong effect on the US economy? Greenspan maybe...president...nah. so stop blaming Bush for the economy. In fact it's really one of the shortest cycle of downturn.

Outsourcing:
If you don't want to hand out the dole (which further contribute to the deficit) to finance Companies that's has high overhead, how else to make Companies competitive? Companies must remain profitable in order to stay afloat & continue to employ. Kill outsourcing & u kill the Co, & more jobs will be lost.
It's the same situation in my countries where many foriegn talents & cheaper 3rd world labours are employed to keep companies competitive & continue doing business here.
And talk about stopping outsourcing & becoming protectionist...seem to run contrary to the democratic spirit doesn't it....tho they are not directly linked.

[BavarianWheels]

If it would make things easier on you, I can just "say" I'm a Calvinist if you like...otherwise...No.

Can God not do as He pleases? Or is He bound by our decisions and/or prayers? Is it not God's will be done and not ours?
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If it looks, walks, talks, and smells like a horse, must be a horse . It's just that you keep taking their side on things is all. No offense intended.

Anyway, of course God can do as He pleases, but one of the things He pleases is to do is give men free will. You are going to insist that God puts evil men in power for various reasons, but ultimately, it has to be to glorify His name (i.e., Pharaoh with Moses). Well, that's a strong push on God's sovereignty, to say that humans have no control over who rules them. It simply ignores their free will in the process . . . I just don't think God works that way.

*shrug*

Did I ever say that humans have no control? What if the Christians have it wrong? (some) Certainly there are some Christians for Bush and some for Kerry. Are you saying the Christians that prefer the one that eventually loses had any control?

My point is this. It matters not who I our you believe is good for the office of president or any position of authority. God will place whom He places regardless of your or my vote.

For this reason...while I reserve my right to an opinion, I choose not to vote as it really is of no consequence in the great scheme of things. In my view, the more corrupt person is the one I hope to get into office. This would only hasten Christ's coming...wouldn't it???


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[Anonymous]

When Bush said there were wmd in Iraq and that turned out to be untrue, he blamed the intelligence. When Bush said we'd be greeted as liberators and were were not, Bush blamed the neocons. When Bush claimed Iraq was buying yellow cake from Niger, he knew his words were incorrect as he was uttering them, as a result, again he blamed the intelligence. According to Pat Robertson, Bush claimed there would be not casualties in the Iraq conflict, again Bush was wrong. When Pat Robertson told Bush to level with the American people to expect a very bloody conflict, Bush shrugged it off. Now Bush is saying there will be NO DRAFT. With Bush's record to this point, Bush has been wrong or incorrect, ot the intelligence has got it wrong.. so.. would it be realistic to believe Bush on this obviously foolish point to make to America?

Do Americans who vote for Bush enjoy being lied to? I am confused. When Clinton lied about having sex with Monica, America went berzerk. But now that Bush is lying or mistating, or getting it wrong more times than not, many American citizens seemingly look the other way and forgive his misgivings even though these misgivings are getting Americans killed.

Just as the intelligence about Iraq's presumed stockpiles of unconventional weapons proved wrong, so did much of the information provided to those prosecuting the war and planning the occupation.

“I don't know what more evidence we need,” Bush said, standing alongside Blair. “We owe it to future generations to deal with this problem.”

A senior White House official acknowledged Saturday night that the 1998 report did not say what Bush claimed.. ie, Bush lied.

[Jac3510]

TE, I can agree with almost every word you wrote. I wish more Americans would think like that!

Bav:

What if all Christians had that thought process and simply chose not to vote? I mean, if you don't want to vote, have at it. I don't mind--that's obviously your right. But, I think it's wrong to say that God will put in office who He wants to the extent that Christians have absolutely no choice in the matter. Jesus said to be the salt of the earth, you know. He didn't give us a political program on how to do that . . . just to do it. Well, one of the things we can do is elect conservative officials to run the country based on conservative values.

As far as hastening the Lord's return . . . I just don't think you can force God's hand . He's going to come back at the time He has already appointed. I mean, by that logic, we should actually be encouraging gay marriages, abortions, high crime rates, divorce, etc. Besides all that, I have my severe doubts that the spiritual situation in America will have any bearing on God's choice of what day to return.

4Truth:

You've been watching a bit of Michael Moore, haven't you? There is a difference in a lie and working of off mistaken information. The pre-war intelligence said that Saddam had weapons. Post-war intelligence has found that he didn't, but that he had the intent on building weapons. Just read the 9/11 Commission Report on that. What would you have suggested? Let him hang around until he actually HAD them? Do you think after he was gone his kids would have been any better? They would have been far worse, as their record showed.

Second, I suggest you stop listening to the media concerning how we are being received there. Keep in mind, they are trying to sell advertisements. It is in their best interest to tell stories that "sell." Controversy sells great, so that is what they are pushing. You aren't being told about all the good that is going on. I have a few personal friends who are there now and who have been there--military, obviously--and while it is hard, they all talk about how grateful the majority of the Iraqi people are. I heard Paul Harvey on "The Rest of the Story" saying a few months ago that the number one selling items were anything western . . . Nike shoes topped the list, if I recall correctly.

Bush didn't lie. You think there will be a draft? Hey, good for you. I don't. As a side note, a draft bill was recently shot down in the House. Guess who put it forward? A DEMOCRAT! Kerry is the one talking about it all the time. Why? Because his party is the one who is trying to bring it up. Think about it a second . . . he has to. He promises not to raise taxes on mid. America (which will be impossible, by the way), but he is talking about increasing military operations worldwide. Uhm . . . that costs money and volunteers.

Unless there's a draft.

It's the only way to make his plan work. Economically, Kerry's plans are a joke. Social Security is dead . . . by '37 there will be one worker for every one retiree. And the idiot is STILL pushing socialistic programs ("health care for all!!!" :p). Simple fact: the US owes too much money to be spending more, and, go check the history books. The Democrats, and especially the far left the party, are the ones who push for bigger government. But, they don't to tax the 80% of middle income America. They want to tax the 10% of the "wealthy," and they don't even know that the "wealthy" have the same money problems as everyone else. In other words, the Democrats--Kerry especially--are out of touch with economic reality. Bush's plans there aren't too much better, but at least he's moving to put retirement back into the hands of the people, and by helping business, he is directly helping the economy (hint: the economy is measured by how well business goes).

All this, and let's not even consider the moral issues between the two.

In any case, at least Bush is consistent. Kerry is a flip-flopping, amoral, popularity-chasing, ineffective, bad Clinton rip-off who won't do anything but spend the next four years increasing the deficit and letting the government be run by special interest groups.

Vote for Bush. It's the Christian thing to do

[BavarianWheels]

Bav:
What if all Christians had that thought process and simply chose not to vote? I mean, if you don't want to vote, have at it. I don't mind--that's obviously your right. But, I think it's wrong to say that God will put in office who He wants to the extent that Christians have absolutely no choice in the matter. Jesus said to be the salt of the earth, you know. He didn't give us a political program on how to do that . . . just to do it. Well, one of the things we can do is elect conservative officials to run the country based on conservative values.

It's not so much a matter of our not having a choice as it is a matter of our choice makes no difference as God's will is done no matter what Christians choose. Of course we choose God of freewill, but God already knows who will choose yes and who will choose no.

I get the feeling that you're saying if all Christians didn't vote on the president of the U.S., God could not do His will...is this correct?

The point I think that was missed is that there are Christians that support Bush and there are Christians that support Kerry. One is the right one for the times in God's eyes. Now lets assume Kerry is God's choice. Do the Christians voting for Bush have any say in the matter? No. The point being is that God never really "changes his mind" but rather in his omniscience, He already knows our choices and his doings prior to us even praying about something. If we pray about something and it comes our way as we asked, it was in God's plan...and not that God changed or prolonged His previous plan. This is evident when the scriptures tell us the plan of salvation was set before creation. Judgement day has been known to God prior to day 1 of creation. It hasn't changed one day because of one "extra" person accepting Christ. That person is no surprise to God! S/he was part of the original plan...this falls in line with predestination in God's reckoning...and not ours. (is that Calvinistic too?? )

As far as hastening the Lord's return . . . I just don't think you can force God's hand . He's going to come back at the time He has already appointed. I mean, by that logic, we should actually be encouraging gay marriages, abortions, high crime rates, divorce, etc.

I know we can't force God's hand...and this falls in line with my thinking that it matters not whom I vote for or whom the whole of Christendom votes for. God's will...will be done. I hope you don't assume I promote homosexuality/homosexual marriages, abortion, and all that stuff, but a true Christian will realize that the morals of this world are going down...it will only get worse before it gets better. Do we as Christians condone it? No. Do we as Christians try and stop it? Politically I think no. But I do think 'yes' in our circle of influence. Our stance on these subjects can be made known...such as, "Christians are against abortions that are not endangering the life of the mother..." But should Christians lobby and promote this as "law"? I don't think so. Our duty is not to change the law of the land or to even make it. We have laws to live by, morals to follow, examples (in Christ) to copy as best we can.

Besides all that, I have my severe doubts that the spiritual situation in America will have any bearing on God's choice of what day to return.

And I think this falls in line pretty well in what I've tried to convey above. However, we do know the spiritual situation will only worsen in America...heck...all across the globe.
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[Anonymous]

I wish I could vote in the elections in the states,
but I can not as I live in the UK!!

But if I did I would vote Kerry!!

From what I have seen and herd of Kerry he is a far better leader than the war monger Bush!

For the peace of the earth I would vote Kerry and urge every Christian in America to do the same.

Nathan