See Frame Above:
Pierac, Are you that intellectually dishonest our just desperately seeking anything any one says to back up your pre-supposition?
If you are really being intellectually dishonest here then you proved beyond all doubt that you will go to any length and to any extreme to support such an untenable position of 'soul sleep' by using Irenaeus to support that the early church did not teach life in the hereafter immediately after a person dies but basically believed and taught that they believed in Soul Sleep / Annihilation doctrines that you do. Also you pick and choose and edit to fit a scheme only those agree with your pre-suppositions. You butchered Irenaeus book note to mention Justin!
In your post, you appeared to have deliberately misquoted Irenaeus in a vain attempt to discredit the very Orthodox Christian doctrines Irenaeus himself defended, as well Justin. Your claim is now proved spurious. Doubt me? Read what Irenaeus really believed, Irenaeus most certainly does not support your position nor does he validate your postulations! No need to go over any of your other quotes or source as proving this one error proves error. Note Context and how much you left out
Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31 and note underlined parts and reference links:
Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31 —- in context --
“The preservation of our bodies is confirmed by the resurrection and ascension of Christ: the souls of the saints during the intermediate period are in a state of expectation of that time when they shall receive their perfect and consummated glory.
“1. Since, again, some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption, they thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, and not admitting the salvation of their flesh, while they also treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned. Those persons, therefore, who disallow a resurrection affecting the whole man (universam reprobant resurrectionem), and as far as in them lies remove it from the midst [of the Christian scheme], how can they be wondered at, if again they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection? For they do not choose to understand, that if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in whom they profess to believe, did not rise again upon the third day; but immediately upon His expiring on the cross, undoubtedly departed on high, leaving His body to the earth.
But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the place where the dead were, as the prophet says concerning Him: "And the Lord remembered His dead saints who slept formerly in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them, to rescue and save them." And the Lord Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." Matthew 11:40 Then also the apostle says, "But when He ascended, what is it but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?" Ephesians 4:9 This, too, David says when prophesying of Him, "And you have delivered my soul from the nethermost hell;" and on His rising again the third day, He said to Mary, who was the first to see and to worship Him, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to the disciples, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father." John 20:17
“2. If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day
"in the lower parts of the earth; " Ephesians 4:9 then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, He thus ascended to the Father;—[if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place?
For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. "For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master." Luke 6:40 As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege].”
Irenaeus taught what all Orthodox Christianity teaches that that there is a Resurrection of the Body at the time of the end as well as that when a person dies before this event they depart to another realm and it is not soul sleep. Note
Adversus Haereses, Book II, Chapter 34 below:
Adversus Haereses (Book II, Chapter 34)
“Souls can be recognized in the separate state, and are immortal although they once had a beginning.
“1.
The Lord has taught with very great fullness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, —in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states Luke 16:19, etc. that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him—[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
“2. But if any persons at this point maintain that those soul, which only began a little while ago to exist, cannot endure for any length of time; but that they must, on the one hand, either be unborn, in order that they may be immortal, or if they have had a beginning in the way of generation, that they should die with the body itself—let them learn that God alone, who is Lord of all, is without beginning and without end, being truly and for ever the same, and always remaining the same unchangeable Being. But all things which proceed from Him, whatsoever have been made, and are made, do indeed receive their own beginning of generation, and on this account are inferior to Him who formed them, inasmuch as they are not unbegotten.
Nevertheless they endure, and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their Creator; so that He grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards.”
See section 3 from above link to same chapter. I left it out to conserve space. In last part of section three He states “shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever” Taken in context of what Irenaeus actually writes in book this cite does not mean that the unsaved days are number to cease to exist or that the soul ceases to exist, because he links it to the final judgment when both body and soul are thrown into hell for everlasting punishment in his other writings of this very book!
“4. But as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul, yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases; so the soul herself is not life, but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God.
Wherefore also the prophetic word declares of the first-formed man, "He became a living soul," Genesis 2:7 teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive; so that the soul, and the life which it possesses, must be understood as being separate existences. When God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [forever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. For the will of God ought to govern and rule in all things, while all other things give way to Him, are in subjection, and devoted to His service. Thus far, then, let me speak concerning the creation and the continued duration of the soul.”
Pierac — Irenaeus teaches against Platonism's doctrine that souls existed forever before creation, that these self existent souls are seeking a body to live in, and after that body dies travel to another body in a form of reincarnation. Mormonism's doctrine on the soul fits more with Plato than Orthodox Christianity! You cannot say that this proves platonic influence had over Orthodox Christianity thus making it corrupt! How dare you insinuate that Irenaeus or Justin teaches your doctorial form of soul sleep — Irenaeus most certainly does not! If alive today he would label you a heretic!
In Summery this is what Irenaeus taught and what Orthodox Christianity believes [and I am quoting from his own words here in part]:
He taught basic Orthodox Christian Doctrine… that Souls can be recognized in the separate state, and are immortal although they once had a beginning. God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [forever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. Irenaeus taught the creation and the continued duration of the soul…
He taught… that the Bible plainly declares that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment…
Irenaeus taught that… Christians, Christ disciples, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose…
Beyond all reasonable doubt how can we trust in your assertions and intellectual honesty as well as your doctrine? How dare you use early church fathers such as Irenaeus who taught and believed in the Trinity and upheld early Christian beliefs in the afterlife and resurrection of the body as a proof text for your cause when you do not even believe as he?? Read:
Adversus Haereses, Book IV, Chapter 39
“Man is endowed with the faculty of distinguishing good and evil; so that, without compulsion, he has the power, by his own will and choice, to perform God's commandments, by doing which he avoids the evils prepared for the rebellious.
“4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.”
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I guess what I should have said was don't try to get me to see YOUR truth by demeaning and putting down MY truth.
I don't think he means to attack you. I think he is just so set in his own beliefs that he is afraid to concede that there may be some truth in your views. That can be scary to us who have always felt secure in what we believe. I can see that what you are saying could very well be true. I have a good christian friend here at work who believes the same.
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