resurrection

[jenna]

In order to cover this fully, we need to again cover Christ's time in the tomb. Note that the only sign He gave that He was the Messiah was "three days and three nights in the earth". (Matt.12:39-40) He placed His ENTIRE IDENTITY on the line with this sign. If He failed this sign, then He is not our savior and nothing He said can be trusted, He would be a fraud and mankind has no savior! This MUST be made clear. Notice also that His sign was "3 days and 3 nights", not the fact that He waas resurrected. Ok, moving on. Did Christ know how long a day was? In John 11:9, He asked "are there not 12 hours in a day?" Since there are 12 hours in a day, which He knew, then there are 12 hours of night. So we come to the conclusion that 3 days and 3 nights would be a total of 72 hours that He would be in the grave. Notice John 2:19-21. "And in 3 days I will raise it up". Here the use of "in 3 days" means that His time in the tomb could not exceed 72 hours, or it wouldn't be in the 3-day period. Matthew 27:63 establishes Jesus time in the tomb as not less than 72 hours, for it states "After 3 days I will rise again". So He could not be in the tomb any more, or less than, 72 hours. The exact moment and time of day when He was placed in the tomb had to coincide with the exact time of day of His resurrection. We must establish when this was. After the "ninth hour" (3 p.m.) He "cried out and died". These events occurred on the day before the "Sabbath", the day called "the preparation". John 19:42 explains; "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day". Jewish burial law (v.31) forbade the bodies of the dead remaining unburied at the outset of any Sabbath day or feast day. Since He died at 3 pm, He would have to be buried before sunset. Also, since He died at 3pm, He would have to be resurrected at no sooner, or later, than 3pm three days later. Many people assume that the "Sabbath" referenced here is the weekly Sabbath, or Saturday. But is this really the case?All four gospels show that the day of the crucifixion was called "the preparation". John 19:14 explains that it was the "preparation of the Passover". V31 goes further "For that Sabbath day was a 'high day'." What is a Sabbath that is a "high day"? Any Jew will tell you that it is a feast day or an annual Holy Day. Leviticus 23 describes 7 of these days. God considers them to be "Sabbaths". The Passover was the one feast that was not also a Sabbath, where work was prohibited. Matthew 26:2 states "You know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, And the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified". So we have established that He was crucified on the Passover. The Old Testament Passover always preceded the annual Sabbath called the First Day of Unleavened Bread. This was a "high day", or feast day, to be celebrated every year on the day immediately after the Passover. (Numbers 28:16-17) Christ died on the Passover, and this day would automatically be a "preparation day" for the feast day, the "high day", which was to begin immediately following His burial. So what day did this day fall on, since ANNUAL Sabbaths could occur on any day of the week? In the year of Christ's crucifixion, according to the Hebrew calendar, the Passover occurred on a Wednesday. This means that the annual Sabbath occurred on a Thursday. It was, in fact, this Sabbath that was approaching. The WEEKLY Sabbath was to occur two days later. So now we come to the resurrection. John 20:1 "The first day of the week come Mary Magdalene early, WHEN IT WAS YET DARK, and sees the stone taken away from the sepulchre." Now notice Luke 24:6. Mary Magdalene and the others find two angels standing before them who state "He is not here, but is risen." Christ had already been resurrected. Since He died at 3 pm on Wednesday, and could not have been in the tomb for more or less than 72 hours, He would have risen at 3 pm the DAY BEFORE they came, which would have been Saturday at 3 pm. He fulfilled His sign!

[Byblos]

Jen,

The link I provided earlier answered pretty much all of the points you addressed (a divine preemptive strike perhaps? ). I will try to go through them one by one.

In order to cover this fully, we need to again cover Christ's time in the tomb. Note that the only sign He gave that He was the Messiah was "three days and three nights in the earth". (Matt.12:39-40) He placed His ENTIRE IDENTITY on the line with this sign. If He failed this sign, then He is not our savior and nothing He said can be trusted, He would be a fraud and mankind has no savior! This MUST be made clear. Notice also that His sign was "3 days and 3 nights", not the fact that He waas resurrected. Ok, moving on.

Before we move on, the only sign spoken of in Mat 12:39 is of the resurrection as there will be only one resurrection. It certainly wasn't the only sign that Jesus is the Messiah as he gave them many more signs through many more miracles. So the emphasis of the sign was not the fact that it was going to last 3 days and 3 nights, it was the fact that he prophesied his own resurrection.

Did Christ know how long a day was? In John 11:9, He asked "are there not 12 hours in a day?" Since there are 12 hours in a day, which He knew, then there are 12 hours of night. So we come to the conclusion that 3 days and 3 nights would be a total of 72 hours that He would be in the grave. Notice John 2:19-21. "And in 3 days I will raise it up". Here the use of "in 3 days" means that His time in the tomb could not exceed 72 hours, or it wouldn't be in the 3-day period. Matthew 27:63 establishes Jesus time in the tomb as not less than 72 hours, for it states "After 3 days I will rise again". So He could not be in the tomb any more, or less than, 72 hours.

He also knew that '3 days and 3 nights' is a Hebrew expression meaning simply 3 days as explained in the link. To say it means he would be in the grave no more than 72 hours I understand, but to also say no less than that is a bit of a stretch. Matthew 27:63 repeats the same 3 days, no mention of any nights. Like I said, the only place in the NT where that's mentioned is in Mat. 12:40 and that was explained.

The exact moment and time of day when He was placed in the tomb had to coincide with the exact time of day of His resurrection.

Why? This is a classic case of reading too much into the text in order to support a particular viewpoint. This is mentioned nowhere, which makes the entire predicated argument (paragraph below) baseless.

We must establish when this was. After the "ninth hour" (3 p.m.) He "cried out and died". These events occurred on the day before the "Sabbath", the day called "the preparation". John 19:42 explains; "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day". Jewish burial law (v.31) forbade the bodies of the dead remaining unburied at the outset of any Sabbath day or feast day. Since He died at 3 pm, He would have to be buried before sunset. Also, since He died at 3pm, He would have to be resurrected at no sooner, or later, than 3pm three days later.

Many people assume that the "Sabbath" referenced here is the weekly Sabbath, or Saturday. But is this really the case?All four gospels show that the day of the crucifixion was called "the preparation". John 19:14 explains that it was the "preparation of the Passover". V31 goes further "For that Sabbath day was a 'high day'." What is a Sabbath that is a "high day"? Any Jew will tell you that it is a feast day or an annual Holy Day. Leviticus 23 describes 7 of these days. God considers them to be "Sabbaths". The Passover was the one feast that was not also a Sabbath, where work was prohibited. Matthew 26:2 states "You know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, And the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified". So we have established that He was crucified on the Passover. The Old Testament Passover always preceded the annual Sabbath called the First Day of Unleavened Bread. This was a "high day", or feast day, to be celebrated every year on the day immediately after the Passover. (Numbers 28:16-17) Christ died on the Passover, and this day would automatically be a "preparation day" for the feast day, the "high day", which was to begin immediately following His burial. So what day did this day fall on, since ANNUAL Sabbaths could occur on any day of the week? In the year of Christ's crucifixion, according to the Hebrew calendar, the Passover occurred on a Wednesday. This means that the annual Sabbath occurred on a Thursday. It was, in fact, this Sabbath that was approaching. The WEEKLY Sabbath was to occur two days later.

This whole line of thinking that the Sabbath mentioned is not the actual Sabbath but Passover was thoroughly refuted in the link. Here's a direct quote:

It is argued by those who would hold to either a Wednesday or a Thursday crucifixion that John's reference to that Sabbath being a "high day" means that it was the Passover that was being termed a Sabbath. Over against such an argument it must be pointed out that the term "Sabbath" when used in a historical narrative invariably means exactly that -- the weekly Sabbath and not some other day of the week. The description of a "high day" does indeed seem to mean that this was more than a regular Sabbath. The same Greek term is used in the Septuagint of Isaiah 1:13 where the Lord says, "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies (the LXX reads "great day")-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly."

However, when John says that Sabbath was a great day, he is not saying that the Sabbath was not on the Sabbath day, but rather that in view of what was going on that week, this was a very special Sabbath. This particular Sabbath was a great day because it was ALSO the Passover.

It was a 'high day' because not only it was a traditional Sabbath but because it was also Passover week.

Another proof that the crucifixion was on a Friday comes from none other than the U.S. Naval Observatory (also from the link):

4. The 14th of Nisan (April)

The Passover traditionally took place upon the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Full Moon. According to the US Naval Observatory, in the years 30 and 33 A.D. the 14th of Nisan took place upon a Friday.1 This coincides with John 19:14 that tells us the day of the crucifixion was "the day of preparation for the Passover."

Year Day of the week of the 14th of Nisan
28 A.D. Tuesday
29 A.D. Monday
30 A.D. Friday
31 A.D. Tuesday
32 A.D. Sunday
33 A.D. Friday
34 A.D. Wednesday

So now we come to the resurrection. John 20:1 "The first day of the week come Mary Magdalene early, WHEN IT WAS YET DARK, and sees the stone taken away from the sepulchre." Now notice Luke 24:6. Mary Magdalene and the others find two angels standing before them who state "He is not here, but is risen." Christ had already been resurrected. Since He died at 3 pm on Wednesday, and could not have been in the tomb for more or less than 72 hours, He would have risen at 3 pm the DAY BEFORE they came, which would have been Saturday at 3 pm. He fulfilled His sign!

The same reasoning applies for an early Sunday morning resurrection.

[FFC]

Wow. You can't get much more precise that that.

[jenna]

Matthew 12:39 " But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it EXCEPT THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAH. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." No talk here of the sign being the resurrection, but clarifies the length of time. Matthew 27:63. No nights are mentioned here, that is correct. However it does state AFTER three days, which means He could not rise again BEFORE three days. He clarified this Himself. He also knew the difference between day and night. Again "three days AND three nights." As far as a "high day" being Passover WEEK,yes, it was the week of the Passover, but He died on the first day of Passover, which in that year occurred on Wednesday. (34 A.D. -Wednesday) Also, if you think He didn't die on Wednesday, then explain to me how after He died, they had to bury Him quickly, since the day AFTER was the day of Preparation. Also explain to me why, according to scripture, Mary "rested on the Sabbath" went and bought spices the day after the Sabbath, and the then on "Sunday" went to His tomb. This would make no sense if He died on Friday. Also, in Daniel 9:27, Daniel gives a prophecy where Christ will be "cut off" in the middle of the week. (Wednesday)

[FFC]

Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [a] In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Jenna, that verse looks like it is talking about the anti-Christ, not Jesus...and the middle of the seven is the middle of the 7 years trubulation where the anti-christ reveals his true colors to the Jews by stopping their temple sacrifices...notice how later in the verse he sets up some kind of an abomination? This is clearly not Jesus.

[Byblos]

Matthew 12:39 " But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it EXCEPT THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAH. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." No talk here of the sign being the resurrection, but clarifies the length of time. Matthew 27:63. No nights are mentioned here, that is correct. However it does state AFTER three days, which means He could not rise again BEFORE three days. He clarified this Himself. He also knew the difference between day and night. Again "three days AND three nights." As far as a "high day" being Passover WEEK,yes, it was the week of the Passover, but He died on the first day of Passover, which in that year occurred on Wednesday. (34 A.D. -Wednesday) Also, if you think He didn't die on Wednesday, then explain to me how after He died, they had to bury Him quickly, since the day AFTER was the day of Preparation. Also explain to me why, according to scripture, Mary "rested on the Sabbath" went and bought spices the day after the Sabbath, and the then on "Sunday" went to His tomb. This would make no sense if He died on Friday. Also, in Daniel 9:27, Daniel gives a prophecy where Christ will be "cut off" in the middle of the week. (Wednesday)

Other than what FFC said re Daniel, for one thing it wasn't just Passover WEEK, the Sabbath was a 'high day' because not only it was an ordinary Sabbath BUT ALSO because it WAS Passover DAY. We've already established that the 14th of Nisan on which Passover falls was a Friday, not a Wednesday in the year 33 a.d. (corroborated by the U.S. Naval Observatory, if you have an issue with that please take it up with them) but of course now you've also changed the year from 33 to 34 a.d.

For another thing, you had stated that Mat 12:39-40 showed the ONLY SIGN that Jesus was the Messiah, and I was trying to tell you if this were the only sign of him being the Messiah then what of all the other signs, miracles, claims that he made that indeed showed him to be the Messiah? No, the ONLY sign Mat 12:39-40 is peaking of is his resurrection, not the fact that he is the Messiah.

They had to bury him quickly because Sabbath was approaching and like any other Sabbath in the Jewish tradition, the dead must be buried before sundown on the Sabbath.

Mary rested on the Sabbath (Saturday) because that's what Jews did, they rested on the Sabbath day, not just because it was Passover but because it was the Sabbath. It makes perfect sense. He died in the year 33 a.d. before the start of the Sabbath on a Friday which was the 14th of Nisan and a Passover day. Mary rested on the Sabbath (Saturday) and went to his tomb early Sunday morning and got the surprise of her life. It all fits.

This is just my opinion but I think all of this argument is being made to fit a preconceived notion that the Sabbath MUST fall on a Saturday (again, just my personal opinion).

[jenna]

One thing to be made clear here, also, is the Passover and the "sabbath" did not fall on the same day. As far as the 33 A.D., you gave several days and years, so where does it state exactly the year He died? And you said that in your personal opinion, that it was a preconceived notion that the Sabbath must fall on a Saturday. Preconceived by who? You say He was resurrected on Sunday because He died on Friday, or the day before the "sabbath" which we know as Saturday today (or the seventh day, if you want to look at it that way) Mary went to the tomb on the "first day of the week". So where exactly do you get a "preconceived notion"?

[Byblos]

So where exactly do you get a "preconceived notion"?

The one that says the new Sabbath MUST still be on Saturday and not Sunday? I thought I had made that clear but anyway, we presented our respective cases and I'm quite comfortable leaving it here.

God bless.

[jenna]

ok, one more question, then. Where do you have any evidence that the seven-day week cycle has EVER been broken or changed?

[Byblos]

ok, one more question, then. Where do you have any evidence that the seven-day week cycle has EVER been broken or changed?

Matthew 12:8 and Mark 2:27.

[johnt]

This has been a great discussion but Jen I will have to give you much deserved credit. You actually can be very correct. Since I opened my mouth when this discussion started and have read a tremendous amount of material on the subject. For one there seems to be much debate and uncertainty among Biblical Scholars on the year, day and time of the crucifiction and of couse the resurection. This is due to the Hebrew Calendar and how they actually adjusted it periodicaly because of the moon but also the barley harvest. I came acrossed a link after trying to get a reading of what day "the 14th of Nisan in 36 a.d." would be and this link came up. I would like everyone who has been part of this discussion to read it and then let's share our thoughts. I'm not a Bible Scholar and would like to know if this makes any sense to the rest of you. Like I said Once the year is pipointed the rest falls in place. Byblos posted the Naval Observatory days and this article shows it to be a Wed. where as they show it as a Tue. in 31 A.D. Which could be another adjustment. I also don't understand why it was never written in Scripture as day 1-7 and the exact year or a better clarification as to the year. The Apostles knew the magnitude of this day and not one of them wrote of it exactly. Why? From that very imortant day forward a great gift was given but no exact time, day, or year. Yes it was written that they all had foresaken Him which would have the exact time in question but not the day or year.



http://www.intercontinentalcog.org/bibl ... ----ITEM_F

[jenna]

Thank you, JohnT. And Byblos, both verses you gave only refer to Jesus calling Himself Lord of the Sabbath. Since He actually created the Sabbath, naturally He is Lord of it. But neither verse states that the actual DAY was changed.

[johnt]

Jen, Go ahead and read the whole paper on the link. It is almost as exactly what you had been pointing to. You as well as everybody else needs to start prior to His birth through the reserection. It will make much more sense that way.

[jenna]

Thanks for this link, John. I definitely am going to read it thoroughly, and definitely encourage others to read it as well. This link is very good.

[johnt]

I might be pouring a little gasoline on the fire but here it goes anyway. We all know that a new Jewish sect had formed, was labeled and called Christianity, and led by Jesus Christ. This new sect actually went out recruited both Jew and Gentile because it was based on love and salvation of all human kind. To this day Judaism frowns on recruitment, converts and marriage to a non-Jew. If we are to assume He resurrected on the Sabbath which is stated by the article I posted. Why is Sunday the principal day of worship for most Christains and not Sat.. Could it be that the general belief is to be that Sun. was the day of resurrection or was it done to show change/rebellion and not to conform to the Jewish Sabbath day of Sat. by the new sect called Christains? Could it be that the Sabbath is just a day to rest ( again the old law set aside) and Sun. being the 1st day of a new week is set to be the day of worship by Jesus? I have wondered about this for a very long time almost 40 years.