resurrection

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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Byblos
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:Thank you, JohnT. And Byblos, both verses you gave only refer to Jesus calling Himself Lord of the Sabbath. Since He actually created the Sabbath, naturally He is Lord of it. But neither verse states that the actual DAY was changed.
The second one actually states that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around (man, not the Son of man, very significant point). But you asked for proof of where the days were changed and Paul provided more than an adequate proof. Quotes from the following link give the answer in detail (all emphasis is mine):

First the significance of the Sabbath in the OT days
The ceremonial days, festivals, etc all pointed to Jesus Christ and His relation to His people. The most significant sign of these was the seventh-day Sabbath rest. When Adam fell into sin, God gave the promise of the Saviour. Until He came the Old Testament saints would remain under bondage awaiting the day of their inheritance (Galatians 3:23-26). In their end of the week Sabbath, they anticipated the coming of the Messiah who was to be the true rest-giver. The one who would pay the price for their sin, so that they did not have to seek to earn their salvation by good works. Thus the day of their Sabbath observance was a shadow of the Saviour's coming. When He came He actually did part of His atoning work on the Sabbath by remaining in the tomb, suffering death and burial in the place of His people. When He arose on the first day, His substitutionary work for His people was completed, and He entered into His glorious rest.
Note how the Sabbath was a foreshadowing of Christ's coming. He is Lord of the Sabbath because He is the true rest-giver and not the Sabbath day.

Why we believe the day was changed by God
As Christians we believe that the day was changed by God, and that the God-given obligation to keep a new specific day of worshipping God remains unchanged. The Old and New Testament have continuity between them as they are the Word of God. Whatever the New Testament does not repeal from the Old Testament remains in effect today. For example much of what Christians believe about marriage and the family is revealed in the Old Testament. Similarly the foundation for the doctrine of the Sabbath as a Christian institution is laid in the Old Testament Scriptures. Gen.2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 establish that Sabbath observance is a permanent moral requirement. Some would argue that Jesus did away with Sabbath observance in Matthew 12:1-14; however that passage rather shows Him teaching us and giving us helpful guidelines for our behaviour on that day.
Paul explains ceremonial laws
In the book of Colossians, the apostle Paul deals with the heresy of those who would teach that salvation was by the works of man which included the observance of the Old Testament ceremonial law (these groups are referred to in history as the Judaizers). In the second chapter Paul reaffirms the authority of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lawgiver, in accord with Jesus own teaching as recorded in the Gospels. In 2:16-17 Paul takes up the matter of days: "therefore let no one act as your judge, in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. Is Paul repealing Sabbath observances as such, or the observance of the seventh day Sabbath along with the other ceremonial days? We find the answer to this question as we examine the three terms Paul uses: "festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day (or Sabbath days)." These three terms are often used together in the Old Testament to describe the various ceremonial days that God's people were required to observe. See for example 2 Chronicles 31:3; Nehemiah 10:32,33; Leviticus 23; etc. The Greek translation of these passages (called the Septuagint) uses the exact three terms that Paul uses in Colossians 2:16. In light of the Old Testament passages we see that Paul uses the term 'Sabbath days' to include the seventh day Sabbath. By use of these three phrases, Paul is describing the Old Testament ceremonial days and Sabbaths and says that the Christian is under no obligation to observe these days.

This instruction was necessary in the time of the transition from the Old Covenant (the era prior to the completion of Jesus' work on earth) to the New (after His resurrection), as Jesus fulfilled the law and prophecies of the Old Testament. In the early New Testament many Jewish Christians continued to observe the Old Covenant feasts and days. Although they were not obligated to do so, since Christ had fulfilled these observances, they worshipped Him through them. Some however in misguided zeal thought that these days ought to be imposed on Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians. In response Paul repudiates any required observance of any Old Testament ceremonial day, because they were "a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Paul reminds us that these Old Testament rituals and ceremony pointed forward to the person and work of Jesus Christ. These things were the foreshadowing for the Old Testament believer, for that which we now can understand fully as Hebrews 1:1,2; 11:39-40 teaches. Thus every part of Old Testament ceremony had reference not simply to God as such, but particularly to Jesus Christ the coming Messiah, who would save His people from their sins. John tells us in the Gospel of John 1:14 that the Word (Jesus Christ) became flesh and tabernacled among us. In John 2:19 Christ claims to be the true temple, fulfilling all that the temple had pointed forward to and promised. After His coming the temple itself paled into insignificance and was no longer necessary (John 4:21-24) because with its festivals and sacrifices it was only a foreshadowing of Christ Himself and His perfect self-sacrifice for sin.
We are no longer under the obligation of ceremonial laws but we still have the moral obligation to honor the Lord of the Sabbath as He, not the Sabbath, is the provider of eternal rest.

Paul makes that very clear by worshiping on Sunday
One day of rest in seven thus does remain the God-ordained and continuing pattern. However as a result of the work of Christ the New Testament era believer is no longer under obligation to observe Old Testament ceremonial days or the seventh day Sabbath. However, it is essential to note that in his discussion Paul never abrogates the moral obligation of keeping holy one day in seven. At creation God established the moral obligation of keeping holy one day in seven, and He reiterated this obligation in the Ten Commandments, along with all the other great moral principles of revealed religion. The particular day, however was not a part of the moral requirement of the law, but a positive law to regulate the fufilling of this moral responsibility to honour the Creator, and to look forward to the fulfillment of His promise of salvation, eternal rest. Thus the day of the week could be changed, and as seen in Scripture it was changed by the work of Christ Himself, and this truth is reinforced by the inspired writing of the apostle Paul, as well as in the Gospels themselves.

Clearly the church continued to observe one day in seven. The New Testament church, keeping the pattern of one day of worship in seven, immediately began to worship on the first day of the week. In Acts 20:7 Paul's own practice confirms this as he worships with the church of Troas on the first day of the week; in 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 he states that he commanded all the churches to gather their offering for the poor on the first day of the week -- the offering being an integral part of Sabbath worship.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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jenna
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Re: resurrection

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Actually the emperor Constantine wanted to separate himself from the Jews. He was a worshipper of a false sun-god, so he set aside a day to worship this god. (Hence the term "Sunday) Anyone who did not follow in his ways were put to death. He started a new "tradition", since he claimed he was worshipping the "Son", but he was actually worshipping the "sun". He had, in effect, changed "times and laws". This actually was foretold in prophecy. (Daniel 7:24-25) Constantine was the first to enforce Sunday worship. At the Council of Laodicea in AD. 363, the following formal decree was passed: "Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, resting rather on Sunday. But, if any be found to be Judaizing, let them be declared anathema from Christ". When one was branded "anathema" which means "accursed' or "heretic", he was arrested and tortured until he either recanted or died. Many people believe that the day was changed since Christ supposedly rose on Sunday, but this is not the case. It was done so that pagan festivals which included Easter and worship os the day of the "sun" could continue. They simply stuck a "Christian" name on a pagan festival. This change was never authorized by God! It was created by MAN, so MAN could continue in his pagan ways!
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:Actually the emperor Constantine wanted to separate himself from the Jews. He was a worshipper of a false sun-god, so he set aside a day to worship this god. (Hence the term "Sunday) Anyone who did not follow in his ways were put to death. He started a new "tradition", since he claimed he was worshipping the "Son", but he was actually worshipping the "sun". He had, in effect, changed "times and laws". This actually was foretold in prophecy. (Daniel 7:24-25) Constantine was the first to enforce Sunday worship. At the Council of Laodicea in AD. 363, the following formal decree was passed: "Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, resting rather on Sunday. But, if any be found to be Judaizing, let them be declared anathema from Christ". When one was branded "anathema" which means "accursed' or "heretic", he was arrested and tortured until he either recanted or died. Many people believe that the day was changed since Christ supposedly rose on Sunday, but this is not the case. It was done so that pagan festivals which included Easter and worship os the day of the "sun" could continue. They simply stuck a "Christian" name on a pagan festival. This change was never authorized by God! It was created by MAN, so MAN could continue in his pagan ways!
Evidently Paul disagrees with you.

Post edit: Sunday is of course an English word. In Arabic for example, Sunday is called Ahad derived from the word Wahad or one, meaning the first day (of the week). I believe this is also true in Hebrew. So that would make Constantine's story rather meaningless in languages where Sunday does not mean day of the sun.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: resurrection

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It still doesn't change the fact that he was the one who changed it, nor does it change the reaon WHY he changed it. And do you think Paul would disagree with God, who is the one who gave the vision to Daniel on the first place?
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:It still doesn't change the fact that he was the one who changed it, nor does it change the reaon WHY he changed it. And do you think Paul would disagree with God, who is the one who gave the vision to Daniel on the first place?
If by 'he' you mean God/Jesus then yes, I agree with you that he did change it. And no, Paul does not disagree with God as God did change it (or rather intended it as such) and Paul is affirming it. Paul is just disagreeing with your Constantine theory being the source of the Sunday Sabbath. Daniel's vision was adequately explained. In any case, if there are no more question, once again I am comfortable leaving the discussion at this stage.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: resurrection

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No, that wasn't what I was saying. By "he" I mean Constantine. And why do you think Paul would disagree? You never exactly gave a reason for that. ;)
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:No, that wasn't what I was saying. By "he" I mean Constantine. And why do you think Paul would disagree? You never exactly gave a reason for that. ;)
Jen, disagree with what? Do you believe Paul was inspired by God when he wrote his epistles? If you believe Paul is contradicting God then it must follow that God is contradicting himself. Do you believe that is the case?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: resurrection

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Yes, I agree Paul was inspired by God! I never said otherwise. I'm not exactly sure how you got that idea. :econfused: But God also inspired DANIEL to have the vision about Constantine. What I was aasking is why do you say Paul would disagree with me?
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:What I was aasking is why do you say Paul would disagree with me?
We're really going in circles here. Paul disagrees with you because one, he said we are no longer under the ceremonial law including keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day, and two because Paul himself prayed and gathered offerings on the first day of the week, Sunday, a mere 300 years before Constantine supposedly changed the Sabbath to Sunday, making Constantine's change irrelevant and inconsequential.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: resurrection

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I do know the scriptures you are referring to. As soon as I find them again I will read them and explain them. Jesus Himself NEVER changed the "Sabbath" to Sunday! It CANNOT be proven by scripture that He ever did. Calling Himself "lord of the Sabbath" does not mean the days were changed. But I do agree we are going in circles here. Can we agree to this :pillows:
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Byblos
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:Can we agree to this :pillows:
I would NEVER, Jen. I'm a gentleman so I will :surrender: for the lady. (besides, I don't think my wife will be too keen on me having a pillow fight with another woman. That darn couch is too lumpy).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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jenna
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Re: resurrection

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Hey! I don't need or want surrender, byblos. That's not why I post here. All I really want is to know the TRUTH. That's why I continually ask questions. I may be a bit stubborn sometimes, but all I really want is truth. Surrender will not help me find it. :stupid: :doh: :sunny:
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jenna
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Re: resurrection

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Maybe we can do this. Then you can get a new couch! :duel:
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Re: resurrection

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jenwat3 wrote:Hey! I don't need or want surrender, byblos.
Only for the pillow fight, Jen. Only for the pillow fight. :wink:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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jenna
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Re: resurrection

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That's a good boy! :poke:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them
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