jenwat3 wrote:Note, Byblos, that WE are not the ones who are "moving" the comma around. This was actually done by men who wanted to inject their belief of "hell". If you truly want to understand the meaning of such verses, it is best to read several different versions and compare them, and notes that may be in the margins.
I will quote Jac's response on the same subject from another thread (
here). Jac, I hope you don't mind.
Jac3510 wrote:Gman wrote:Just an fyi on this.. The original Greek did not have punctuation marks as we do today.
Yes sir, I am aware. That's why I pointed to Mark's reference. If you want to be technical, the Greek behind the phrase, "Truly, truly, I say to you" (or however you want to translate it) is:
Amen, lego soi
That phrase occurs over and over and over again by Jesus in all the gospels. He only adds the word "today" two times in all of Scripture: once in Mark 14, and one in Luke 23. In Mark 14, the addition of "today" is clearly part of the following clause. The construction in Greek, when speaking to the thief on the cross, is
exactly the same.
If I can use a silly illustration to make my point:
J. Vernon McGee has a silly little speech tick where, when he moves to make an application of a passage, he almost always uses the phrase, "Now may I say you you . . ." He invariably uses the phrase. Now, suppose he said the following:
"Now may I say to you today you should forgive that man who offended you!"
How would you hear him? Is he saying on this day to you that you should forgive him at some point, or is he saying that you should forgive him today? Well, since he ALWAYS uses the phrase WITHOUT "today," it is aburd to think that the addition here is superfluous. This is further obvious in Greek in that word position has to do with emphasis rather than meaning. The word "today" as used by Jesus in both Mark and Luke comes at the beginning of the direct discourse, placing it in the emphatic position. It should be, then, translated:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, this very day you will be with Me in paradise."
It isn't a punctuation issue. It's an emphasis issue. Now, is it grammatically POSSIBLE what Jen and others are saying? Of course, but from a grammatical, contextual, and linguistic perspective, it is really is rather absurd. It makes a total mockery of the idea of emphasis, as well as Jesus' repeated usage of the phrase in all of Scripture.
God bless
As for the different bible translations of Luke 23:42, let's take a look:
NIV wrote:43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
No footnotes.
NASB wrote:43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise."
No footnotes.
Amplified wrote:43And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
No footnote.
New Living Translation wrote:43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
No footnote.
KJV wrote:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
No footnote.
ESV wrote: 43And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in(A) Paradise."
No footnote on the word 'today'.
Of course there's more but this should do.
P.S. Which bible translation do you use Jen that shows the comma after the word 'today', not before?