the need for a bible

[the sleep of reason]

I have no clue what you are talking about here.... How does the tower of Babel make God a racist?
[/quote]
i'm the one saying i dont see God as being racist. however i'm saying i have been told that God punishes people for the sin's of their ancestors, particularly rural africans. it goes like this, according to their teaching: God seperated everyone by race and language and geography after the tower of babel. thus shoving rural africans out away from God's word. so when i ask stuff like "hey, it's easy for me to hear God's KJV bible but hard for rural africans who dont have access to it. that makes it easier for me to get to heaven since this is the only way and dooms them to hell since THIS IS THE ONLY WAY." to which i have been told 'God punishes these people for the sins of their ancestors.' all of this implies God 'cursed' these people to rural africa and 'cursed' them to hell by putting them outside the realm of anglo-christianity which is the ONLY way.

see the racist implications there? personally i dont believe in any of this as anything more than clap trap, and it's precisely the kind of logic that keeps me from believing there's only ONE way to God's salvation.

"Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching.

hey you dont have to convince me, i KNOW. my point is merely that you cant quote a specific religion such as islam or mormanism as being sexist without admitting christianity has been, too. i know a million churches that wont allow for women preachers, or women to wear jeans, or a million other backwards things.i just dont think it's fair to single out another religion as being wrong for their sexist fundamentals when i can point out that many churches wrongfully claim to have biblical sexist fundamentals.

Yes it can happen.... But it is not endorsed by the Bible or God... Does that mean we throw out the Bible now?

good question. i ask you the same thing about mormanism or islam. zealots can do something awful in the name of fundamental (insert any relgion here). do we toss out ALL those for that reason, too?

[the sleep of reason]

More on Bible codes here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... f=3&t=2104

can i ask about the bible code?
what purpose does it serve? it doesnt do anything, you cant predict anything with it, and some of the 'truths' you find in it are not even proven as truth by history (oswald as the assassin debate.)

i dont see anything it can do but serve as a novelty.
it certainly doesnt confirm God.

[Gman]

More on Bible codes here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... f=3&t=2104

can i ask about the bible code?
what purpose does it serve? it doesnt do anything, you cant predict anything with it, and some of the 'truths' you find in it are not even proven as truth by history (oswald as the assassin debate.)

i dont see anything it can do but serve as a novelty.
it certainly doesnt confirm God.

Please read the link I quoted. I don't believe in the Bible codes. I believe they are bunk.... Rather crazy actually. You can get the same prophecies by decoding the book "Moby ****."

[zoegirl]

i ask you the same thing about mormanism or islam. zealots can do something awful in the name of fundamental (insert any relgion here). do we toss out ALL those for that reason, too?

No we reject them because of their lack of authenticiy, their message, and the evidence.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... icity.html

[Gman]

i'm the one saying i dont see God as being racist. however i'm saying i have been told that God punishes people for the sin's of their ancestors, particularly rural africans.

Well again, we can say anything we want.... But we have to look at scripture and compare it with other scripture to get a fuller answer. It's just like anything else we do in the academics.. Right? I mean, I would love fore someone to call me a biologist after quoting a few paragraphs from my science book. But does that make me a biologist? I would hope not...

it goes like this, according to their teaching: God seperated everyone by race and language and geography after the tower of babel.

Actually the onus goes on man here for not dispersing over the earth...

thus shoving rural africans out away from God's word.

What about the Europeans or the Chinese too? It states that all men were dispersed... Including the Jews.

so when i ask stuff like "hey, it's easy for me to hear God's KJV bible but hard for rural africans who dont have access to it. that makes it easier for me to get to heaven since this is the only way and dooms them to hell since THIS IS THE ONLY WAY."

I think this covers this article again.... http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... heard.html

to which i have been told 'God punishes these people for the sins of their ancestors.' all of this implies God 'cursed' these people to rural africa and 'cursed' them to hell by putting them outside the realm of anglo-christianity which is the ONLY way.

I believe Moses was referring to the consequences of the father's sin being passed on to their children... To say that God punishes these people for the sins of their ancestors contradicts Ezekiel 18:20. Also what is Christianity to you? What is the message of it... What does it mean?

see the racist implications there? personally i dont believe in any of this as anything more than clap trap, and it's precisely the kind of logic that keeps me from believing there's only ONE way to God's salvation.

I don't see the racist implications here... Just a misunderstanding of the word of God. We all can have misunderstandings of the Bible, including me. But we have to be careful with it, and not simply say "thus saith the lord" and then slam the book closed.

hey you dont have to convince me, i KNOW. my point is merely that you cant quote a specific religion such as islam or mormanism as being sexist without admitting christianity has been, too. i know a million churches that wont allow for women preachers, or women to wear jeans, or a million other backwards things.i just dont think it's fair to single out another religion as being wrong for their sexist fundamentals when i can point out that many churches wrongfully claim to have biblical sexist fundamentals.

Ok, perhaps we should go to the other religions and find out what they say on the subject then. Let's buy a book of the Quran and the Book of Mormon and see what they say.... The Bible is VERY clear that man and women are EQUAL in the face of God.

good question. i ask you the same thing about mormanism or islam. zealots can do something awful in the name of fundamental (insert any relgion here). do we toss out ALL those for that reason, too?

I would think that some fundamentalists can do awful things in the name of their religion, including Christianity... I don't think however that it necessarily reflects on the doctrine of their religion... I believe we all have some kind of religion in our lives too, even if it's not a mainstream religion...

[Gman]

i ask you the same thing about mormanism or islam. zealots can do something awful in the name of fundamental (insert any relgion here). do we toss out ALL those for that reason, too?

No we reject them because of their lack of authenticiy, their message, and the evidence.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... icity.html

Yes, that is actually a better approach... This is a good one too.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... gions.html

[the sleep of reason]

What about the Europeans or the Chinese too? It states that all men were dispersed... Including the Jews.

exaclty. according to their interpretations, God doesnt love them as much, either.

I believe Moses was referring to the consequences of the father's sin being passed on to their children... To say that God punishes these people for the sins of their ancestors contradicts Ezekiel 18:20. Also what is Christianity to you? What is the message of it... What does it mean?

again, you dont have to convince me, i know. all i'm saying is i've heard it from the pulpit, even if i was smart enough to know it was claptrap. all i'm saying is christians misuse the bible for racist/sexist propaganda, too. quote those churches the scriptures (i can get you their addresses if you want) because i already know they were just propagating lies and hate in the name of christianity.

I

don't see the racist implications here... Just a misunderstanding of the word of God. We all can have misunderstandings of the Bible, including me. But we have to be careful with it, and not simply say "thus saith the lord" and then slam the book closed.

you dont see how their misinterpretations are racist, saying rural africans deserve to go to hell more than anglo bible belt americans? that's racism.

Ok, perhaps we should go to the other religions and find out what they say on the subject then. Let's buy a book of the Quran and the Book of Mormon and see what they say.... The Bible is VERY clear that man and women are EQUAL in the face of God.

yes. perhaps we should. meanwhile i already did. i got a book about true fundamentalist islam after 911 to see if all this war and jihad stuff was fanatacism/radical islam or fundamentalist islam. it's not fundamentalist, it's bastardized hate that they claim is islam, but it doesnt have roots in scripture. it's extremist zealotry.
as for mormonism: one of my best friends is mormon as are several other friends. they do not doctrinally believe in racistm or polygomy or any of the other awful things christians say about them. yeah SOME might but it's not a fundamental truth to the overall religion anymore than sexism is fundamental to christianity.
YOU, gman, are the one that said mormans are fundamentally racist and that islamic people are fundamentally sexist. neither are any truer for those religions as they are for christianity. one can misuse scripture to get to those conclusions for all three religions, and many people actually DO misuse scipture for that reason.

I would think that some fundamentalists can do awful things in the name of their religion, including Christianity... I don't think however that it necessarily reflects on the doctrine of their religion... I believe we all have some kind of religion in our lives too, even if it's not a mainstream religion...

that's right. that's why i think we should be careful denouncing other religions based on these few crazies. it's ok not to agree with them or not believe in them but dont badmouth them based on misuse of scripture by some radicals. that's all my point was. is.

[the sleep of reason]

i ask you the same thing about mormanism or islam. zealots can do something awful in the name of fundamental (insert any relgion here). do we toss out ALL those for that reason, too?

No we reject them because of their lack of authenticiy, their message, and the evidence.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... icity.html

1. that is not a neutral site. it's arguing for the bible's authenticiy because it's a pro-bible website.
2. its giving very few citations for one to fact check their data
3. it doesnt speak about the loss of translation from spoken to written hebrew, much less the loss from hebrew to english.
i again ask: the literal translation of the creation account in hebrew says the earth was here and was reconstructed to suit modern man. not that it was created from nothing. that's literal hebrew. what of that?
4.king james version. what about that?

[Gman]

again, you dont have to convince me, i know. all i'm saying is i've heard it from the pulpit, even if i was smart enough to know it was claptrap. all i'm saying is christians misuse the bible for racist/sexist propaganda, too. quote those churches the scriptures (i can get you their addresses if you want) because i already know they were just propagating lies and hate in the name of christianity.

Yes that is true... They are propagating lies in the name of Christianity and scripture. So what are you saying then, that all religions can lead to racism?

you dont see how their misinterpretations are racist, saying rural africans deserve to go to hell more than anglo bible belt americans? that's racism.

Yes, they are twisting scripture to promote racism. Something I have not found in Biblical scripture...

yes. perhaps we should. meanwhile i already did. i got a book about true fundamentalist islam after 911 to see if all this war and jihad stuff was fanatacism/radical islam or fundamentalist islam. it's not fundamentalist, it's bastardized hate that they claim is islam, but it doesnt have roots in scripture. it's extremist zealotry.

We don't know what draws people to slam airplanes into buildings. I never said that reading the Quran would make you kill people... That would be a foolish mistake.

as for mormonism: one of my best friends is mormon as are several other friends. they do not doctrinally believe in racistm or polygomy or any of the other awful things christians say about them. yeah SOME might but it's not a fundamental truth to the overall religion anymore than sexism is fundamental to christianity.
YOU, gman, are the one that said mormans are fundamentally racist and that islamic people are fundamentally sexist.

That is wrong... I never said that Mormon's are fundamentally racist. I'm saying that the doctrine is corrupted by the seed of Cain theory and pushes blacks away before 1978. You don't even need me to tell you this... Just google it, it's not a mystery....

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/morm ... acism.html

And I never said that Islamic people are fundamentally sexist either. I'm saying that the doctrine appears to be sexist....

Source: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

that's right. that's why i think we should be careful denouncing other religions based on these few crazies. it's ok not to agree with them or not believe in them but dont badmouth them based on misuse of scripture by some radicals. that's all my point was. is.

I never denounce people, as I've stated before, we don't know how God is going to judge us nor the other religions. I will however attack principles and doctrine. And I'm not afraid to... Including my own.

[the sleep of reason]

Yes that is true... They are propagating lies in the name of Christianity and scripture. So what are you saying then, that all religions can lead to racism?.

yes, yes they potentially can. just the same as any hammer can become a weapon. IS a hammer a weapon? no. cant it be? yes. WILL it be? maybe. if you use it wrong.
religions can be racist, too. if you use them wrong.

That is wrong... I never said that Mormon's are fundamentally racist. I'm saying that the doctrine is corrupted by the seed of Cain theory and pushes blacks away before 1978. You don't even need me to tell you this... Just google it, it's not a mystery....

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/morm ... acism.html

And I never said that Islamic people are fundamentally sexist either. I'm saying that the doctrine is sexist....

Source: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

what was the point of either one of these statements?
i couldnt find any purpose of the statements other than to say they are wrong because of these fundamental reasons. sorry if i'm wrong, but what was your point?

[Gman]

yes, yes they potentially can. just the same as any hammer can become a weapon. IS a hammer a weapon? no. cant it be? yes. WILL it be? maybe. if you use it wrong.
religions can be racist, too. if you use them wrong.

So... To correct the problem eliminate all weapons or religions. Right?

what was the point of either one of these statements?
i couldnt find any purpose of the statements other than to say they are wrong because of these fundamental reasons. sorry if i'm wrong, but what was your point?

What is your point? You stated that I'm the one that said mormans are fundamentally racist and that islamic people are fundamentally sexist.

However, according to your claims, anyone that has a religious belief has the potential to use it as a hammer. Therefore all religions are therefore bad...

[jenna]

I'm trolling again, but I think Sleep's point is that religion has the POTENTIAL to be bad, if the wrong person uses it. Religion in itself is not bad, just like a hammer in itself is not bad. It has the POTENTIAL to be used for good or bad, depending on the person who has it. Same with religion. It's not religion that needs to be done away with, but the people who use it wrongly.

[Gman]

I'm trolling again, but I think Sleep's point is that religion has the POTENTIAL to be bad, if the wrong person uses it. Religion in itself is not bad, just like a hammer in itself is not bad. It has the POTENTIAL to be used for good or bad, depending on the person who has it. Same with religion. It's not religion that needs to be done away with, but the people who use it wrongly.

Well at least we agree on something....

Except for that eliminate people part. We don't eliminate people based on their religion... Only their actions....

[jenna]

I'm trolling again, but I think Sleep's point is that religion has the POTENTIAL to be bad, if the wrong person uses it. Religion in itself is not bad, just like a hammer in itself is not bad. It has the POTENTIAL to be used for good or bad, depending on the person who has it. Same with religion. It's not religion that needs to be done away with, but the people who use it wrongly.

Well at least we agree on something....

Except for that eliminate people part. We don't eliminate people based on their religion... Only their actions....

[the sleep of reason]

I'm trolling again, but I think Sleep's point is that religion has the POTENTIAL to be bad, if the wrong person uses it. Religion in itself is not bad, just like a hammer in itself is not bad. It has the POTENTIAL to be used for good or bad, depending on the person who has it. Same with religion. It's not religion that needs to be done away with, but the people who use it wrongly.

exactly. thank you.
i guess i was being too obtuse.