The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

[zoegirl]

You, as far as I can tell, simply see it as being two beings within one family (one God), equally as mysterious.

So how is your position any less mysterious than ours?

I could very well be wrong (and I'm sure Jen will correct me ) but I don't think she sees it as one God. One family of gods maybe, but not one god. As I recall, she was arguing against monotheism.

Yes, I do know that Christ is God,

I guess I was thinking about the fact that she regards Christ as God. In my mind this is a simple transitive property...If god the father is God and Christ the Son is God we have something similar to the trinitarian concept but with only two parts. they are both equally God and yet separate beings? How is that any less mysterious than our concept of three persons within one Godhead?

YOu are still implying that these two "beings" are in essence the same in property (both God) and established power and majesty and yet are some sort of "Family", united...sounds suspiciously mysterious to me

[FFC]

You, as far as I can tell, simply see it as being two beings within one family (one God), equally as mysterious.

So how is your position any less mysterious than ours?

I could very well be wrong (and I'm sure Jen will correct me ) but I don't think she sees it as one God. One family of gods maybe, but not one god. As I recall, she was arguing against monotheism.

Yes, I do know that Christ is God,

I guess I was thinking about the fact that she regards Christ as God. In my mind this is a simple transitive property...If god the father is God and Christ the Son is God we have something similar to the trinitarian concept but with only two parts. they are both equally God and yet separate beings? How is that any less mysterious than our concept of three persons within one Godhead?

YOu are still implying that these two "beings" are in essence the same in property (both God) and established power and majesty and yet are some sort of "Family", united...sounds suspiciously mysterious to me

This may help to get it from the horses mouth Click here

[Rich]

As you wish. One question, though. Can these attributes not also demonstrate the Power of God?

To deny the oneness of God, a person must say that all of the following verses are wrong. It is pretty clear that these verses are not talking about God being one in power (as the Mormons preach), but God actually existing as One Being:

Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus 8:10)
"For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. (Exodus 9:14)
"To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)
"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:39)
"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)
`See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
"There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. (Deuteronomy 33:26)
"There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our God. (1 Samuel 2:2)
"For this reason Thou art great, O Lord God; for there is none like Thee, and there is no God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22)
And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who art keeping covenant and showing loving kindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart, (1 Kings 8:23)
so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else. (1 Kings 8:60)
He trusted in the Lord, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him. (2 Kings 18:5)
"O Lord, there is none like Thee, neither is there any God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)
And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no god like Thee in heaven or on earth, keeping covenant and showing loving kindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart;" (2 Chronicles 6:14)
Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders which Thou hast done, And Thy thoughts toward us; There is none to compare with Thee; If I would declare and speak of them, They would be too numerous to count. (Psalms 40:5)
There is no one like Thee among the gods, O Lord; Nor are there any works like Thine. (Psalms 86:8)
"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me." (Isaiah 43:10-11)
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.'" (Isaiah 44:6)
`Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'" (Isaiah 44:8)
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other," (Isaiah 45:5-6)
Thus says the Lord, "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: `Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.'" (Isaiah 45:14)
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), "I am the Lord, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18)
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:21-22)
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, (Isaiah 46:9)
There is none like Thee, O Lord; Thou art great, and great is Thy name in might. (Jeremiah 10:6)
Yet I have been the Lord your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. (Hosea 13:4)
"Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the Lord your God And there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. (Joel 2:27)
"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)
"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? (John 5:44)
"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." (John 8:41)
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. (1 Corinthians 8:4)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, (Hebrews 6:13)
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)

Yes, Tritheism (proclaiming that there are three Gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) is a heresy, currently practiced by the LDS Church (Mormonism).

[zoegirl]

I guess my critique would be that it seems bizarre to have "mysteriousness" as one of the reasons (I know there are others) to reject the trinity.

AnYTHING we try to do with respect to the persons or beings or family of God would still be mysterious

I think Rich has done the best job of presenting the sheer number of verses presenting the nature of the three persons.

[jenna]

Yes, he has. However, I do not appreciate being called a heretic simply because I do not share the same views as others do.

[FFC]

Yes, he has. However, I do not appreciate being called a heretic simply because I do not share the same views as others do.

I don't think he called you a heretic, Jenna, just that some of your views smack of heresy to us. There was no soft way to say that. I have no doubt that Herbert Armstrong may have the same opinion of many of us. I still wrestle with some beliefs that others may find heretical.

Regardless, in instances like this we all really do need to study the scriptures prayerfully and, as hard as it is, without bias from any church, organization, man, pope or anything else. We really do need to be like the Bereans in Acts who studied the scriptures to see whether the things that Paul was preaching was true. All of us.

none of us knows it all here, but we prayer for knowledge and wisdom and listen to God the best we can. Thankfully we have His word. How we study it depends on how honest we want to be with ourselves.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sermonize...how many more post until I can become a pompous windbag? Don't say it, Jenna!

[Rich]

Yes, he has. However, I do not appreciate being called a heretic simply because I do not share the same views as others do.

Tritheism is a non-Christian heresy. One cannot say that there are three Gods and still claim that their position represents Christianity. You still have not said what you are going to do with those 36 verses that refute your idea of God's nature. Are they wrong? Am I mis-interpreting their meaning?

[jenna]

First to be clear, I've never said there were 3 Gods. There are God the Father and God the Son. The Holy Spirit I do not define as a "god". As far as your verses, I am studying them one at a time. It may take me a while to go through all of them.

[Gman]

Jen...

The point I was trying to make earlier is that if we say that Jesus is not God, then we take away the central theme that God died for us. A second adam (if that is what you think Christ was) cannot wash away man's sins nor die for man's sins. Christ was pure and therefore God... He HAD to be... And he also had to be a man too to fulfill His promise of salvation. Does that make it any clearer?

[jenna]

Yes, this part is clear. And I never said or implied in any way that Christ wasn't God. As far as the "second Adam", that is in the bible, not from me. 1cor.45.

[jenna]

I have been reading a book, and it raises a few questions and logic problems with the trinity. Maybe someone can answer them? A few of them are:
1)If Christ and the Father were one, how could Christ do God's own will? Would He not be doing His own will?
2)If the Father, Son, and Holy spirit were one being, how did one member of that being find a way to die?
3)If Jesus were part of a trinity, were did He ascend to? Had He not remained in heaven all along?
4)How could Jesus be our mediator if He is one part of a single being, meaning ALL parts would have the same thoughts and feelings?
5) In Matt. 22:44, It states that Christ sat at the right hand of God. How could this be possible if they are the same being?
6)If the trinity is one being, made of three separate parts, would they not all be equal? Yet Christ Himself states that He is not equal to the Father. John 14:28
These are just a few questions I have. Maybe someone can answer them? I do have a few more points, but I will address them in a later post.

[zoegirl]

I have been reading a book, and it raises a few questions and logic problems with the trinity. Maybe someone can answer them? A few of them are:
1)If Christ and the Father were one, how could Christ do God's own will? Would He not be doing His own will?
2)If the Father, Son, and Holy spirit were one being, how did one member of that being find a way to die?
3)If Jesus were part of a trinity, were did He ascend to? Had He not remained in heaven all along?
4)How could Jesus be our mediator if He is one part of a single being, meaning ALL parts would have the same thoughts and feelings?
5) In Matt. 22:44, It states that Christ sat at the right hand of God. How could this be possible if they are the same being?
6)If the trinity is one being, made of three separate parts, would they not all be equal? Yet Christ Himself states that He is not equal to the Father. John 14:28
These are just a few questions I have. Maybe someone can answer them? I do have a few more points, but I will address them in a later post.

Jen, this is from another trinity post. I am quoting from JAc, who descibes the trinity far better than I could. But considering that this addresses many of your questions, I thought I would let you read it.

I don't have time to read all of your post in detail now. I am getting ready to walk out the door for church, and I won't be back until late this evening. However, I did notice in my skimming of your response that you have majored on the Christ's submission to God as a means of denying His co-equality with Him.

Trinitarians have always answered this question in the same manner (so far as I am aware), and I believe their answer is exactly right. When we speak of coequality, we are, just as when we speak of His coeternity, speaking of His essence and nature. Ontologiclaly, Jesus is perfectly coequal with God, just as is the Holy Spirit. This is seen even in our human realm. I am ontologicaly equal with President Bush. He is no more human than I am. Economically, however, I am subservient to him. The same is true in the Trinity.

Notice that my definition is ontological. There is also an economical definition of the Trinity that speaks nothing of the Persons' coequality and coeternity. In this definition, the Father elects; the Son gives Himself for sin; the Holy Spirit regenerates and seals the elect; in return for the Son's willful sacrifice, He receives authority over all the world; the Father receives the subservience of the Son, making Him Lord over all; the Holy Spirit binds everything together. The key in this view, however, is that there is only one God who does all of this. And thus, we see the Trinity played out this way. It relies heavily on what is called Trinitarian Subordinationism, as opposed to, say Trinitarian Egalitarianism (which is, in my view, pure heresy). The point here is that in this view (which I do not think is necessarily incorrect), coequality is not mentioned because we are not speaking of God's ontology. Notice that, just the same, coeternality is not mentioned, either. Again, both of those are properties of God's ontological existence.

Please note that in my definition, I described the Trinity as the term that describes God's nature (ontology) as three Persons in one eternal Being. If you would like me to add a statement to my definition to explain the God's economical nature, I can, but I hope you can see that I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Jesus saying that the Father is greater than He.
...

If you want to read more, http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=105

but the actual thread is locked, so you can read, but you can't post anymore

[jenna]

I have read this, but it only addresses one point I had. What about the others?

[frankbaginski]

Hi all,

Just a comment or two. The trinity is very hard for some to accept. They keep thinking of the three parts as things. It is our perception that is the problem. Since we are of the flesh we think in physical terms that limit our understanding. For instance if we go to the ocean and fill a bucket with the water and place it on the beach is the water in the bucket part of the ocean? It sure is. But in some way it is not, the physical separation can lead one to conclude that it was but now it is not. I tend to view God as a mist with infinite supernatural powers. How God manifest itself to be viewed by His creation is not our business. These powers are beyond us and if we get stuck trying to place them in our world then we have admitted to being bound to the flesh. You cannot use God's creation to define God. That is like taking a book and using it to define the writer. You may get a partial view but that is all. It is faith that trancends the world and it is faith that we were called to by Christ.

[jenna]

Hi all,

Just a comment or two. The trinity is very hard for some to accept. They keep thinking of the three parts as things. It is our perception that is the problem. Since we are of the flesh we think in physical terms that limit our understanding. For instance if we go to the ocean and fill a bucket with the water and place it on the beach is the water in the bucket part of the ocean? It sure is. But in some way it is not, the physical separation can lead one to conclude that it was but now it is not. I tend to view God as a mist with infinite supernatural powers. How God manifest itself to be viewed by His creation is not our business. These powers are beyond us and if we get stuck trying to place them in our world then we have admitted to being bound to the flesh. You cannot use God's creation to define God. That is like taking a book and using it to define the writer. You may get a partial view but that is all. It is faith that trancends the world and it is faith that we were called to by Christ.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree here. God wants us to understand Him, not leave us in the dark. This is why He plainly tells us to "prove all things".