The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

[jenna]

I read your link, K. And I must say that there are still too many questions that I have, that no one has yet given me ANY response to, other than to say "have faith and believe". While I don't deny I must have faith, I don't think BLIND faith is any good. There are too many logic problems for me to just "have faith" here. We are told to "test the spirits", and this is what I do. Until someone can answer my logic questions, I see no reason why I should simply "have faith" that the Holy Spirit is an actual being.

[Kurieuo]

I read your link, K. And I must say that there are still too many questions that I have, that no one has yet given me ANY response to, other than to say "have faith and believe". While I don't deny I must have faith, I don't think BLIND faith is any good. There are too many logic problems for me to just "have faith" here. We are told to "test the spirits", and this is what I do. Until someone can answer my logic questions, I see no reason why I should simply "have faith" that the Holy Spirit is an actual being.

This was actually directed at Canuckster for his own interest, not you who I see as quite set and decided regarding your belief of the Holy Spirit.

Just like you can make your own judgment calls given all the Scriptural information we provide you with regarding the Holy Spirit, so we can make our own. And our judgment is that there are strong reasons presented in Scripture (including at the link I provided) for believing that the Holy Spirit is a) divine, and b) a person like the Son and Father.

Regarding the logical problems, I am a keen theologian and philosopher and I just do not see them. You accept that the Son and the Father are both God, no? If so, on what logical basis do you accept both Christ and the Father are God? If not, than I personally see that a lot of explaining away of Scripture needs to be done on your part.

[jenna]

I apologize for answering someone else's post. I see no logic problems on my belief that the Father and Jesus both being God, since the bible plainly states they are. And also, I have not been trying to change anyone's mind here. It seems that you get the idea somehow that I have, although I don't know why. All I have been trying to do is find out truth here, and why people believe what they do. I believe that I have stated this several times. And I don't expect you to answer these questions I have, since obviously you don't want to, or feel no need to, help me with this. Does not God say "prove all things"? That is what I try to do here. Plain and simple. The reason I throw a few verses out there is to get further clarification on subjects, not to prove someone wrong, or to prove my theories. I'm sorry no one can see that.

[Kurieuo]

I apologize for answering someone else's post. I see no logic problems on my belief that the Father and Jesus both being God, since the bible plainly states they are. And also, I have not been trying to change anyone's mind here. It seems that you get the idea somehow that I have, although I don't know why. All I have been trying to do is find out truth here, and why people believe what they do. I believe that I have stated this several times. And I don't expect you to answer these questions I have, since obviously you don't want to, or feel no need to, help me with this. Does not God say "prove all things"? That is what I try to do here. Plain and simple. The reason I throw a few verses out there is to get further clarification on subjects, not to prove someone wrong, or to prove my theories. I'm sorry no one can see that.

1) So what if you were trying to change someone else's mind It is what you believe so I wouldn't expect anything different.

2) I don't know what questions you want answered which have not already been covered. I see no point in changing your mind, which is perhaps why I did not respond to you directly with that link and instead I saw more profit responding to Canuckster. You are free to believe what you want. All we can do is present information to try better inform a judgment.

3) Paul says we are test all things and hold onto the good. "Prove all things" does not mean "prove all things to all people." I have tested and proven to myself through my own examination of Scripture and early Christian history that the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit being God, is entirely sound and valid.

Finally, by the same logic you accept the Father and the Son are both God, it is no less logical to believe the Holy Spirit is also God.

[jenna]

You are correct in your statement about Paul. We should prove things for ourself. One way I have of doing this is by questioning everything. A few questions that have still been unanswered are why does Jesus not state " I and The Father AND THE HOLY SPIRIT are one"? If the Holy Spirit were actually part of the Godhead, why is this not acknowledged? Also, again, if the Holy Spirit was a being, why did not Paul acknowledge this? In several passages, Paul greets congregations. He almost always says the same thing-"Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ". So why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned? Would it not be just as important to mention it as well?

[Kurieuo]

You are correct in your statement about Paul. We should prove things for ourself. One way I have of doing this is by questioning everything. A few questions that have still been unanswered are why does Jesus not state " I and The Father AND THE HOLY SPIRIT are one"? If the Holy Spirit were actually part of the Godhead, why is this not acknowledged? Also, again, if the Holy Spirit was a being, why did not Paul acknowledge this? In several passages, Paul greets congregations. He almost always says the same thing-"Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ". So why isn't the Holy Spirit mentioned? Would it not be just as important to mention it as well?

I am not sure what you mean about Paul regarding the Holy Spirit The person of the Holy Spirit appears to me quite embedded in Paul's theology:

• Romans 5:5
  And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
  
  Romans 8:16
  The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
  
  2 Corinthians 5:5
  Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
  
  Ephesians 1:13-14
  And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
  
  Romans 15:18-19
  I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
  
  1 Corinthians 12:1-11
  1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
  2You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
  3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
  4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
  5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
  6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
  7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
  8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
  9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
  10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
  11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

[jenna]

Are you trying to change my mind, K? The points I was referring to:Romans 1:1,7-9, 1Cor. 1:1-3, 2Cor. 1:1-3, Gal.1:1-3, Eph. 1:1-3, Phil.1:1-2, Col. 1:1-3, 1Thess. 1:1, 2Thess.1:1-2, Philemon1:1-3, and Titus1:1-4. I know that Paul acknowledges the Holy Spirit exists, but my question is why doesn't he greet people in the name of God, Jesus, AND the Holy Spirit, if it were actually part of the Godhead?

[Kurieuo]

Are you trying to change my mind, K? The points I was referring to:Romans 1:1,7-9, 1Cor. 1:1-3, 2Cor. 1:1-3, Gal.1:1-3, Eph. 1:1-3, Phil.1:1-2, Col. 1:1-3, 1Thess. 1:1, 2Thess.1:1-2, Philemon1:1-3, and Titus1:1-4. I know that Paul acknowledges the Holy Spirit exists, but my question is why doesn't he greet people in the name of God, Jesus, AND the Holy Spirit, if it were actually part of the Godhead?

There is always hope, but I am a realist and by that I mean I realise I can not change anyone's mind. People change their own minds if they so desire in according with their experiences, who they know, what they have been familiarised with, and many other factors. One will be constantly disappointed if they aim to change anyone's mind on trivial issues let alone ones about God and who He is. Instead I offer up information, and while I have hope for changing the minds of people I directly dialogue with, I find more satisfaction in thinking that readers who might be on the sideline or who may not have developed reasons for their beliefs, would be persuaded or strengthened by what I have to offer.

So your argument is one of silence despite Paul's quite detailed writings regarding the Holy Spirit elsewhere? I want to add that neither do I find in Scripture it ever said that the holy spirit is the Father and Son's God like-mindedness. If arguments from silence matter, perhaps this should be the most deafening?

And yet, I can respond that in all of Paul's writings in the verses I quoted, Paul very much sees the Holy Spirit as dwelling with himself and amongst Christians. Therefore why should Paul greet people in the name of the Holy Spirit, when this Councilor who was sent by Christ after His ascension, is already amongst them? Let the Holy Spirit speak for Himself. Paul however comes in the name of the Father and Son; the Holy Spirit was already with him and other Christians so he needed not come in the Holy Spirit's name. Furthermore, Christ Himself does use such a phrase when telling His disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt 28:19) Yet, instead you focus are silences elsewhere rather than what we do have. Would it really change a thing for you if Paul did say something to the effect of "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" when you ignore Christ Himself as recorded in Matthew?

[jenna]

Ouch! Point made and taken.

[B. W.]

So then why is no NAME ever specifically mentioned? god has a name, Jesus had a name, even the angels had names. Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, Satan, etc. Every actual being in the bible has a given name. Why leave out the Holy Spirit if it is an actual being?

The ancient use of the word translated name was used to describe attributes and reveal the nature of the one named as bore out in the verse below when Jabez received his name:

1 Chronicles 4:9, “Jabez was more honorable than his brothers; and his mother called his name Jabez, saying, "Because I bore him in pain."

His name, Jabez, meant describe how this man was to live his life — as trouble and causing pain. Jabez pleaded with God that he not live according to the character associated with his name [Jabez] and God honored his prayer.

Point is — name stresses and reveals the character, nature, disposition, and attributes of the one named. Therefore, the name of the Lord is used in the same manner: revealing the character, nature, disposition, and attributes of God.

Psalms 20:1 opens: “To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. May the LORD [Yahweh] answer you in the day of trouble! May the name of the God [Elohiym] of Jacob protect you!” ESV

Here you have God being revealed as the one who answers and protects/delivers as well as reveals his nature — how he does so.

The problem you are apparently having is using a name to identify a singular person as is the modern method and usage of name means in the western cultures and not looking at the intent of the ancient usage of name that reveals the person, what they are like, who they are, their character, nature, disposition, and a person's attributes — the ancient usage of 'name' is meant to reveal the ENTIRE person and Substance of that person.

So when you read 'name of the Lord' you are not seeking to know the ENTIRE person of God and God's Substance but rather instead bent on reducing God's name on par with Zeus — a singular deity like all other deities known by name identification and nothing else. Thus the first parts of the Ten Commandants are broken and its curse remains.

Any wonder Jabez wanted his name changed? Just think — the Lord gives us, who are born again in the true sense of the word, a new name too! You need a new name.
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[jenna]

B.W. We were not discussing God's name this time, but the Holy Spirit's name. I am in no way reducing God's name to that of Zeus, who is a false god anyway. I have already given my definition of God's name, which in no way reduces it.

[B. W.]

B.W. We were not discussing God's name this time, but the Holy Spirit's name. I am in no way reducing God's name to that of Zeus, who is a false god anyway. I have already given my definition of God's name, which in no way reduces it.

That is good to hear as you had me worried that you were and also I am sorry if I misunderstood you on this

Always remember God's name used in the bible describes God's nature, character, and the attributes of his nature, character, disposition, wisdom, when revealing God's name. They are used to reveal things about God. The God of Jacob, Yahweh our Banner, Elohim our Rock, Yahweh is just Elohim and Savior, etc and etc…
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[frankbaginski]

HI Jenna,

Another clue for us is in the use of the term God (Elohim) which is plural but used in a sentence as if singular. This does not say three but as K says there is lots to back up that view.

[jenna]

HI Jenna,

Another clue for us is in the use of the term God (Elohim) which is plural but used in a sentence as if singular. This does not say three but as K says there is lots to back up that view.

Yes, you are correct on the word and it's usage. But it is plural in the same sense that FAMILY can be plural, it contains more than one being. In this case, those beings would be God the Father and Jesus. The word "elohim" doesn't include the Holy Spirit.

[BavarianWheels]

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The word "elohim" doesn't include the Holy Spirit.

Just because the HS was already present, doesn't mean *he* is excluded from the plural term 'elohiym. It's like having one brother standing with you and someone asks you, "What are you doing for the long weekend?" and your response being, "My family is coming from *up north*..."

Using the term Family does not exclude your brother from the family, but would exclude him from "coming" as he's already here.

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