going to hell?

[B. W.]

Pierac,

How can we trust what you write? You twisted the early Church Fathers to conform to your point of view without regard to what they actually said. Next, you fail to note what 'eternal' means and correlate the traditional Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the dead 'at the last trumpet' to all else without regard to the Lord's will regarding his gift of life and his judgments.

Next - you have not answered any of these statements below and I am still waiting:

It is up to those who believe in the varied doctrines of soul sleep to disprove that there is no rest for the wicked, prove that those deceased mentioned in Ezekiel 32:17-32 are not cognizant. It is up to you to prove that Jesus deliberately lied in Luke 16:19-31 just to convey a nice moral story to conform to the modern definition of sleep to mean a state of non-being immediately after one dies. God said — “There is no rest for the wicked,” did he mean it? If so, would sleep be such rest?

I gave those, who hold to the doctrines of soul sleep, a tremendous amount of scripture that proves that the afterlife begins the second after we die. The varied doctrines of soul sleep are mere opinions of men disguised as bible and come from philosophers and not the bible.

I stated this before and it may have confused several of you when I wrote of two different judgments. So let me clarify this again: Hebrews 9:27 states plainly immediately after death comes judgment. This determines where one will reside in the afterlife. The second judgment involves both the resurrection to judgment and the resurrection of life. The second please note, involves Resurrection. To be resurrected means both body and the spiritual will be rejoined and this is known as the resurrection of the body. This is the final judgment which in essence means — final commuting of a sentence previously passed.

Since those of you not believe in the tri-unity of human nature — you are forced to redefine the afterlife and twist scriptures to support a warped view. This proves one thing — those of you [Pierac] chose the traditions of men over God's will and are on the verge of rejecting God himself. You claim open minds but refuse to look into your founder's doctrines with an open mind — Armstrong, Christdelphian, JW, Rabbinical Judaism, etc and etc..

Those of you who believe in soul sleep keep erroneously defining the 'resurrection of the dead and final judgment' only as a single solitary judgment [such as in Daniel 12:1-3]and neglect the truths the bible contain about God holding the wicked to account just as it is written:

Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.” MKJV

Where is Sheol that God prepared — that place of containment? Deuteronomy 32:22 answers this question: “For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.”

Sheol is not the lake of fire so this is not some future event seen from the past. The wicked will be turned into Sheol. Job 26:4-6, “With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person — exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].” JPS

Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.” ESV

Why do those of you that believe in any of the varied 'soul sleep' doctrines fail to note that the spiritual part of human beings continue after death just as Hebrews 9:27 states and Paul alludes too in Philippians1:23 as well as elsewhere.

Look again at what Jesus said as recorded in John 5:24-29, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” ESV

Jesus stated this in verse 25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…”

What does 'is now here' mean if it does not mean 'is now here'? How do you deal with what is recorded in Matthew 27: “52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” ESV

Well according to those who believe in any of the varied doctrines of soul sleep — Matthew 27:52-53 could not have happened because it is not the time of the end! However, what Jesus said is true: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God[/b]…” Yes the dead hear and are not asleep, nor do they wait in silent blissful slumber for a future event. What does 'is now here' mean if it does not mean 'is now here'?

What happened to these that were raised in the Matthew account? Did Jesus tuck them back into the earth and say, “Now sleep my child to the end — I just woke you for a little while — time to go back to bed-e-bye?” I think not.

Paul states for believer that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and again he stated that those Christians who have fallen asleep — died — will be will be with Christ in the air when he returns the second time for the resurrection of the body. Again, where do believers in Christ go immediately after they die? Answer - to reside with him awaiting the resurrection of their new bodies: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

You see, again the doctrine of soul sleep is proved false. So doctrines of soul sleep/soul death call Jesus a liar as that is precisely what one has to do to explain away the clear teachings of the bible. Luke 16:19-31 is based on something Jesus knows as fact. Again, Christ must be made out a liar in order to protect the doctrines of men. Funny how people entrenched in cultic doctrines refuse to see the truth of Christ and twist things to their own destruction.
-
-
- continued...

[B. W.]

Part Two — from another thread line on same subject — posted below:

Soul Death — Soul Sleep…

Does Jesus promise eternal life or soul death/soul sleep? — in regards to how God designed human beings — what God does last forever — he placed eternity in our hearts means eternal because that is his will: Eternal life with Him through Jesus Christ or Eternal living punishment for those that reject him. Note Ecc 3:11-22

How can punishment [just recompense] be eternal if it ceases to exist?

Two Logic trees:

One -

1--Eternal — last forever — Ecc 3:11-14
2--Soul Death ceases to exist
3--Eternal is not Eternal if it ceases to exist

Two -

1--Eternal — last forever - Ecc 3:11-14
2--Eternal recompense last forever
3--Eternal remains Eternal because it never ends

Conclusion:

Such punishment that makes one cease to exist is not eternal justice as it lets the guilty off the hook for what they have done. True absolute justice instead would give 'such' a place they so desired — life without God — banished forever from God reaping what they have sown.

God demands an account of what we each 'do' with the gift of life that he granted each of us — this proves God's justice absolute. This gift of life last forever for both the bad and the good or it does not accurately reflects who God is. God is just to spare his gift of life granted to each of us from being deleted into non-existence - this proves God's mercy absolute.

If God is a God of the living then such deleting life into non-existence is a contradiction to a God who grants life, who asks men to repent and return to him through Christ Jesus, whose gifts and callings are without reneging, who places eternity in the heart, who does things that last forever, God who requires an account of what is past, etc and etc.

In eternities eternal state if the bad were allowed in God's new heaven and earth they learn that sin has no consequences and would return to it by manipulating God's mercy. likewise, if the bad were just spanked a little while in hell and then allowed in heaven they learn that sin has no consequences and would return to it by manipulating God's love to their advantage. You see, they have the knowledge learnt from the serpent mentioned in Genesis chapter 3.

If the bad were blasted into eternal non-existence then that contradicts who God is himself as the living God. To make life cease to exist in any form contradicts the meaning of the word eternal, everlasting in regards to life that God gives.

God let's life live and holds to account. Them that that reject him — he rejects and justly places them in eternal punishment [recompense] which consist of banishment from God forever. For those that accept him, his work on the cross, he reworks and re-fashions them during this mortal sojourn to live with him forever without possibility of rebellion ever again, justly,rightly, fairly, proving he is true God and Savior.

Mark 12:27, “He is not God of the [soul] dead, but of the living..."

'Soul Death/soul sleep' is a contradiction to the gift of life God himself has given each of us as well as a contradiction to God himself.
-
-
-

[jenna]

No, it does not contradict God in any way. It simply means that people do not automatically go to heaven or hell immediately upon death. We are judged after the resurrection and this is when we receive our eternal reward or eternal punishment. Notice that the bible says eternal punishMENT, not eternal punishING. There is a difference. The reward is eternal and so is the punishment. This does not mean that the burning of sinners will last forever, but the punishment will. They will be gone forever.

[B. W.]

Things can only be true or they can be false:

Logic trees:

One -
1-Eternal living last forever Eccl 3:11-14
2--Soul Death ceases to exist
3--Eternal is not Eternal if it ceases to exist

Two -
1-Eternal living last forever Eccl 3:11-14
2--Soul sleep pauses eternity
3--Eternal is not Eternal if it is paused or delayed

Three -
1--Eternal living last forever - Eccl 3:11-14
2--Eternal recompense or salvation last forever
3--Eternal remains Eternal because it never ends

Conclusion:

Adam and Eve were not tempted to live forever. They were already in that state of being as God willed it to be. If not, then God would not have said, ‘That in the day you eat of that tree of knowledge you will surely die.’

Genesis 2:7, then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

God gave his gift of life as he so willed. If this gift ceases to exist then how could whatever God does really endure forever? If he reneged this gift how could he remain a God of justice, mercy, love, grace, righteousness “ how shall he prove himself truly God?

Genesis 3:4-5, But the serpent said"You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil"

Eccl 3:11-22, 11 He [God] has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he [God] has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end….14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him."

Genesis 2:17, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Genesis 3:22, Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" Meaning living forever in humanity’s fallen rebellious state and nothing else. If this were not the case then what God does in no wise endures forever [see Gen 2:7] nor would his judgments or demonstration of his love through Christ Jesus either.

Eccl 3:17, I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work.

How can God’s judgments endure forever if they cease?

Eccl 3:18, I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Genesis 2:17, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Mortal life dies and the body returns to the earth to decay but the sprit and soul continue. If the spirit/soul cease to be, then what God does in no wise endures forever.

Question:

Eccl 3:21, Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?

Psalms 9:15-17, The nations have sunk in the pit that they made; in the net that they hid, their own foot has been caught. 16 The LORD has made himself known; he has executed judgment; the wicked are snared in the work of their own hands. Higgaion. Selah 17 The wicked shall be [turned] to Sheol, all the nations that forget God. ESV

Sin has made us like beast. Will our beastly sin filled spirit/soul go down to the earth or will it be a refashioned spirit/soul that goes upward to God? Christ shows what comes after when we die and brings to us that choice “ what direction do you wish to go?

Philippians1:23, I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8, For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened--not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

What God does endures forever or it does not which is it?

At the moment this mortal dies the spirit/soul departs to a place of containment waiting for the final re-joining with the body so the scriptures are fulfilled. If this is not so, how could whatever God does really endure forever, like his gift of life he gives all men endure forever if it does not? How can he ransom from Sheol if none live there in containment?

Hosea 13:14, I will ransom them from the hand of Sheol; I will redeem them from death. O death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your ruin? Repentance is hidden from My eyes. LITV

Isaiah 25:8, He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.

At the end of all things when the new begins “ the spirit, soul, and body will be rejoined in the resurrection of the dead for the final commuting of the sentence God decreed in judgment for those that died whose spirit/soul either reside either with the Lord or in hell according to his perfect righteous, just, fair, judgment that endures forever.

Therefore Number Three is true as whatever God does endures forever.

1--Eternal living “ last forever
2--Eternal recompense or salvation last forever
3--Eternal remains Eternal because it never ends

[Bible quotes from ESV unless otherwise noted]
-
-
-

[jenna]

I do not disagree with you, on what God does will endure forever. The punishment of the sinners WILL endure forever. They will never get a second chance at the rewards God gives to the rest of us. The punishment will be forever, not the punishING. The judgement, eternal death, will not cease. They will never again have a chance at eternal life.

[B. W.]

I do not disagree with you, on what God does will endure forever. The punishment of the sinners WILL endure forever. They will never get a second chance at the rewards God gives to the rest of us. The punishment will be forever, not the punishING. The judgement, eternal death, will not cease. They will never again have a chance at eternal life.

How can punishemnt endure forever if it does not punish forever?

Eternal Punishment [recompense] would ceae to exist if it does not punish.

Therfore The punishment will be forever, so shall the punishing
-
-
-

[jenna]

It can still punish forever, and does. As stated before, there will be no other chance at eternal life. The wicked will perish and be gone forever. They will burn up and cease to exist. Notice Malachi 4:1-3. "For behold the day comes, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, SHALL BE STUBBLE, and the day that comes shall BURN THEM UP, says the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH. But unto you that fear My name shall the sun of righteosness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves in the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I do this, says the Lord of Hosts." So the wicked will be ash, having been burned up and will be gone permanently. Notice also, that God says that this will happen IN THAT DAY, not immediately after death.

[B. W.]

It can still punish forever, and does. As stated before, there will be no other chance at eternal life. The wicked will perish and be gone forever. They will burn up and cease to exist. Notice Malachi 4:1-3. "For behold the day comes, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, SHALL BE STUBBLE, and the day that comes shall BURN THEM UP, says the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH. But unto you that fear My name shall the sun of righteosness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves in the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I do this, says the Lord of Hosts." So the wicked will be ash, having been burned up and will be gone permanently. Notice also, that God says that this will happen IN THAT DAY, not immediately after death.

However Jesus said…

Mark 9:43-48, “And if your hand offend you, cut it off. For it is profitable for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go away into Hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not put out. 45 And if your foot causes you to offend, cut it off, for it is profitable for you to enter into life lame, than having two feet to be thrown into Hell, into the unquenchable fire, 46 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if your eye offends you, cast it out. For it is profitable for you to enter into the kingdom of God one-eyed, than having two eyes to be thrown into the Hell of fire, 48 "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." [Isa. 66:24] LITV

Matthew 25:41 and 46, “Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels…46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

Concerning the resurrection of the dead — these do not cease as everlasting abhorrence is everlasting non-ceasing abhorrence: Daniel 12:2, “And many of those sleeping in the earth's dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and to everlasting abhorrence.' LITV -

You also forgot to ask yourself the following questions regarding these scriptures:

Revelations 22:14-15, “Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city. 15 But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it.” LITV

Revelations 21:27, “And all profaning may not at all enter into it, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only the ones having been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.” LITV

Who are these people? Revelations 21:8 answers who: “But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” LITV

How can these people mentioned exist alongside, nearby, those in heaven if they have ceased to exist? You see for those to exist outside, they do indeed continue to exist outside in that lake of fire along with those who worshiped the beast:

Revelations 14:11, “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” KJV

No rest for the wicked means just that as what God does endures forever…

Please do not twist the meaning of Malachi 4 to suite false teaching based on the philosophic traditions of men. To burn up does not equate with non-existence as how can you continue to punish nothingness continuously? That is a contradiction.
-
-
-

[jenna]

And yet again you say I am twisting scripture without fully comprehending what I am telling you. First, let me say again that it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING. All the verses you gave with unquenchable fire? The fire is definitely unquenchable. To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own. You want to quote Daniel 12:2? This plainly tells you when we will be judged, at the resurrection, not when we die. And everything you quoted in Revelations will occur in the future, it will not happen at the present time, nor has it happened in the past. In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.

[Canuckster1127]

And yet again you say I am twisting scripture without fully comprehending what I am telling you. First, let me say again that it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING. All the verses you gave with unquenchable fire? The fire is definitely unquenchable. To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own. You want to quote Daniel 12:2? This plainly tells you when we will be judged, at the resurrection, not when we die. And everything you quoted in Revelations will occur in the future, it will not happen at the present time, nor has it happened in the past. In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.

Jenna,

Kurieuo asked you a question earlier, maybe in another thread that I don't think I say an aswer to and I'm a little interested in it myself.

Are there any teachings of your church that you disagree with or do you simply accept and defend everything they teach?

Honestly interested.

Bart

[jenna]

To answer that fully, I do believe everything they teach, but the ONLY reason I believe this is because I study what they teach, and have found it to be true. I question EVERYTHING, from either here or the church, and I WILL NOT believe anything unless it can be proven to me by scripture. Admittedly, not all things can be proven by scripture alone, since alot of history and background must be researched as well, but in the end everything comes back down to scripture. The reason I go with this church is not simply because I was raised in it, but because I have never seen where they have been wrong yet.And believe me when I tell you that I have tried proving them wrong, several times, since I know that what they teach is considered very "unorthodox" and sometimes regarded as heretical.

[Kurieuo]

To answer that fully, I do believe everything they teach, but the ONLY reason I believe this is because I study what they teach, and have found it to be true. I question EVERYTHING, from either here or the church, and I WILL NOT believe anything unless it can be proven to me by scripture. Admittedly, not all things can be proven by scripture alone, since alot of history and background must be researched as well, but in the end everything comes back down to scripture. The reason I go with this church is not simply because I was raised in it, but because I have never seen where they have been wrong yet.And believe me when I tell you that I have tried proving them wrong, several times, since I know that what they teach is considered very "unorthodox" and sometimes regarded as heretical.

When I did my theological studies I was thoroughly surrounded with quite liberal beliefs and opinions. During these times, I found it extremely difficult and painful thinking critically about everything that was being presented to me. I was quite experienced previously with arguments and reasons for my Christian beliefs, thankfully due to the many books I have read and through debating many Atheists and non-Christians online. But even then, I could sense my thoughts were becoming clouded and the truth was becoming harder and harder to see.

I saw many just get swallowed up by teaching and others who had some resistance and voiced critical questions eventually appeared to buckle under the teachings. One guy I spoke with wisely left his philosophy of religion class because it challenged his beliefs too much, but he returned a year later when he felt better prepared. Such people examined for themselves all the very good and convincing reasons for the beliefs they were being presented with. They all had brains, and just about all appeared to think deeply about the issues presented to them, yet perhaps 95% of the time students generally accepted what they were taught. One reason I believe for this is because the environment they were in made it hard to resist. Another reason is that they previously did not have opinions on many issues, and so what they were being taught did not have another side to it and simply slipped by any objection filters in their reasoning. As these teachings were adopted as their first beliefs, and they studied further, these foundational beliefs now implanted in their heads just grew and grew as their own.

Whenever I undertook an assignment, I would just get out lots of books by different people an the issue I had to write. It was a lot of work reading them, critically analysing them, and then building my own opinions. But I am thankful I did as otherwise I would not have coped as much as I was able, nor would I have found all the nice gems along the way. Critical analysis is crucial, but it is near impossible to have this if you have no previous knowledge on the matter and need to be spoon fed some foundations to at least work from. I was always highly concerned whenever I had to learn something I had no position on, or even beliefs I did have a position on. Who can be trusted? Who is right? How will I know? God please help me! We must be careful not to accept knowledge from any one source who provides us with our first taste on an issue, as such knowledge might be wrong and if accepted it has already taken root and will just grow.

Now this is a general idea I am throwing out to you. It is interesting you just happen to agree with everything you have been taught so far, and I am sure you yourself can see this. It could just be coincidental, or it could be more something like I have been explaining. When there is smoke all around you it makes it harder to critically find the truth the smoke is covering. So when you stumble across something that appears clear in all the smoke, something first presented to you, it is quite naturally going to appear correct.

So what is the answer to seeing correctly? I have some I found handy. Suspect everything presented to you and do not allow it to take root not matter how good it sounds! This can be extremely hard to do. Then once outside of the environment at home, do a lot of homework researching the various positions, beginning with the most critical of the one you were first presented with! Other than that, being aware to how our own beliefs evolve and the fact that we may let many wrong beliefs slip by as though they were our always own. Thankfully, there is only one truth that ultimately matters to us and that is Christ.

[jenna]

I agree with what you say, K. Suspect and question everything man tells you to believe. This is what I have always tried to do. I actually have been to many different churches, Catholic churches, Presbeterian churches, the Salvation Army church, Methodist, among others. This is one reason why I like this board, and posting questions, because I can get all different points of view from different people of different backgrounds all at once. It is, for me, a good way of questioning things. But you are definitely right in your last sentence. In the end all that matters is Christ!

[Canuckster1127]

I agree with what you say, K. Suspect and question everything man tells you to believe. This is what I have always tried to do. I actually have been to many different churches, Catholic churches, Presbeterian churches, the Salvation Army church, Methodist, among others. This is one reason why I like this board, and posting questions, because I can get all different points of view from different people of different backgrounds all at once. It is, for me, a good way of questioning things. But you are definitely right in your last sentence. In the end all that matters is Christ!

I'd offer something in the midst as well, and I'll speak about it in terms of my own experience.

I grew up in a less than perfect family. My Dad was an alcoholic. My mom was and is very codependent and unhealthy in her ways of relating with people. I grew up as a very isolated and lonely young man. I came to Christ when I was 12 and made a deeper commitment toward living out that faith better when I was 15. I'd been in different churches prior to that. When I got serious and also found that there was love and care for me in a Church where I was lacking that at home, there was a very strong part of me that emotionally accepted all that I was taught in that Church simply because I was so hungry for the love and acceptance I felt there that critically examining the teachings wasn't all that important. I was prepared to accept and defend everything they taught because that was the context that I got stability and love and i wasn't going to mess that up. Plus I was 15 How critically was I equipped to look at things and learn?

There came a point where I grew in my walk and education where it became more important to me to examine the Bible on its own terms instead of being told what to believe and that came later in my Christian walk when I realized that God wanted me to learn and experience the Bible with guidance but to work out what I believed and what I believed it taught.

I can honestly say that I don't think there is a Church out there that 100% lines up with me on every issue, althought certainly there are those that are pretty close.

I think anyone who just accepts at face value all they are taught from one group without questioning and pursuing truth outside those limits may be making their decision on more emotional grounds. I know I was. But it takes time and is a process and you have start somewhere.

If I were in you position, and I'm not, I think a question I might be asking is if so many of the beliefs of my church were considered heretical or non-orthodox, then can I trace them back to the early Church. Were they there? Why did the early church reject them? What is the lineage of preserving those beliefs and interpretations since then. What is the fruit of those beliefs in history and now?

Just a thought. It just strikes me a little odd and I hope you don't mind the direct questioning in this regard.

[jenna]

Not at all do I mind direct questions, in fact I welcome them. I don't have alot of time now, but I have read your questions and as soon as possible I will answer.