going to hell?

[Pierac]

Hi B.W.

B.W. wrote:

Pierac,

How can we trust what you write? You twisted the early Church Fathers to conform to your point of view without regard to what they actually said. Next, you fail to note what 'eternal' means and correlate the traditional Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the dead 'at the last trumpet' to all else without regard to the Lord's will regarding his gift of life and his judgments.

Next - you have not answered any of these statements below and I am still waiting:

I answered you way back on page 3… Here it is again I will cut and paste it for you so you don't have to go back.


Hi B.W.,

Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31 —- in context --

“The preservation of our bodies is confirmed by the resurrection and ascension of Christ: the souls of the saints during the intermediate period are in a state of expectation of that time when they shall receive their perfect and consummated glory.

“1. Since, again, some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption, they thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, and not admitting the salvation of their flesh, while they also treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned. Those persons, therefore, who disallow a resurrection affecting the whole man (universam reprobant resurrectionem), and as far as in them lies remove it from the midst [of the Christian scheme], how can they be wondered at, if again they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection? For they do not choose to understand, that if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in whom they profess to believe, did not rise again upon the third day; but immediately upon His expiring on the cross, undoubtedly departed on high, leaving His body to the earth. But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the place where the dead were, as the prophet says concerning Him: "And the Lord remembered His dead saints who slept formerly in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them, to rescue and save them." And the Lord Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." Matthew 11:40 Then also the apostle says, "But when He ascended, what is it but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?" Ephesians 4:9 This, too, David says when prophesying of Him, "And you have delivered my soul from the nethermost hell;" and on His rising again the third day, He said to Mary, who was the first to see and to worship Him, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to the disciples, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father." John 20:17

“2. If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day "in the lower parts of the earth; " Ephesians 4:9 then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, He thus ascended to the Father;—[if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. "For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master." Luke 6:40 As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege].”

Irenaeus taught what all Orthodox Christianity teaches that that there is a Resurrection of the Body at the time of the end as well as that when a person dies before this event they depart to another realm and it is not soul sleep. Note Adversus Haereses, Book II, Chapter 34 below:

Seems to me he did not believe they will go immediately to heaven at death, but wait for the resurrection. Then receiving their bodies at that time. Irenaeus is talking about a future event, he is well aware of what Paul taught about the resurrection.

2Ti 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

He taught… that the Bible plainly declares that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment…

Irenaeus taught that… Christians, Christ disciples, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose…

I never said that he did not believe in the immortality of the soul. I said he did not believe the soul went directly to heaven at death. As you clearly quoted in your post and I highlighted in red. They must wait for the resurrection!

Now please allow me to correct you using scripture. You believe that the human soul is immortal like Irenaeus. Yet, what saith the scriptures…

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

B.W. that would be God the Father whom no man has seen.

Psa 78:50 He leveled a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave over their life to the plague,

Psa 116:8 For You have rescued my soul from death, My eyes from tears, My feet from stumbling.

Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

All souls die, and stay dead until the resurrection.
B.W. Maybe only Old Testament souls were not immortal?

Psa 13:3 Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

(Act 7:60) And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Look's like the writer of Act thought death was like a sleep too.

B.W. could you please post the scriptures that tell of man containing an immortal soul? I really am open to be corrected. That will help you settle the issue. I have already shown you several scriptures that prove the soul is not immortal. If the soul is not immortal then it goes nowhere at death.

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.


Peace,
Paul

[Pierac]

B.W. Wrote:

Two Logic trees:

One -

1--Eternal — last forever — Ecc 3:11-14
2--Soul Death ceases to exist
3--Eternal is not Eternal if it ceases to exist

Two -

1--Eternal — last forever - Ecc 3:11-14
2--Eternal recompense last forever
3--Eternal remains Eternal because it never ends

Conclusion:

Such punishment that makes one cease to exist is not eternal justice as it lets the guilty off the hook for what they have done. True absolute justice instead would give 'such' a place they so desired — life without God — banished forever from God reaping what they have sown.

Let's see...
KJV Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

NASB Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."


H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703. (Practically) eternity Please!

B.W. you completely misunderstand the whole meaning of Ecc 3:11

Ecc 3:11 is saying… So God makes everything proper and appropriate for His Plan, but He has Put obscurity in their (Humanity) hearts.. so that, or in order that they cannot know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call life. It has nothing what so ever to do with eternity.

NASB Pro 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?


B.W. wrote:

Adam and Eve were not tempted to live forever. They were already in that state of being as God willed it to be. If not, then God would not have said, “That in the day you eat of that tree of knowledge you will surely die.”

If Adam and Eve were immortal why was the tree of life in the garden? You are simply following the teachings of men, let the Holy Spirit open your eyes. All you have to do is ask. Why was the tree of life there? I have also never found a verse showing they ate from it either.


What are the wages of Sin?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now what did Jesus do for our sins? He Died!
If eternal torment is the penalty for our sins then Jesus has not fully paid the price!

Now what happens to Christians today? They Die, and stay dead until the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Lazarus did not go to Abraham's bosom because Abraham was dead. Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead to immortality. He is the first fruit.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Paul wrote this many years after Christ arose from the dead. Note it reads At his coming. Each will be made alive? I see no immortality here! They are still waiting for his coming.

I hope this helps

Paul

[frankbaginski]

Kurieuo, Canuckster1127,

My search through scripture was after I figured out that science was a house of cards. Way too many things resting on some assumptions I could not accept. I came to study scripture after I was 50, and after many years of reading different fields of science. I never double checked the scientific data and assumptions so I was lead by the nose down the path.

So when I started to read scripture the first thing that became very apparent was the need to read commentaries on the books. After a bunch of study I knew that there were areas where a view would cause a ripple effect on all of scripture. In these areas I read diverse opinions before I would accept any. It became more apparent to me that if I held close to the literal meaning of the scripture then more and more verses were consistant. When I saw someone alegorize a verse this caused other verses to either lose meaning or they too had to be alegorized to fit. This domino effect was totally unacceptable to me. Even though I have settled into my beliefs I know that at any moment that could change with additional knowledge. This is why I hold beliefs vastly different than mine with respect. I may argue a point but I think this is just healthy scriptural study.

[frankbaginski]

Jen,

As for eternal punishment in the lake of fire. To me it seems a hard thing to accept but I am not the Creator of the universe. It would be easier to accept that people who were thrown there burned up and ceased to exist. But in Revelation:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

The beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for a thousand years before the devil was tossed in. They are still there. I see no other way of reading this passage except at face value.

[jenna]

The subject of the beast and false prophet were answered in another post. In the italics in the KJV, the word "are" is wrong. It should read "where the beast and false prophet WERE CAST. So they both have been put in the same place, but that doesn't mean that they will "be together".

[frankbaginski]

Jenna,

I looked up the verse in the NKJV and did not see an alternate interpretation. I looked it up in bluebible and did not see it in their commentary. I looked it up in esword and looked at the greek and did not see this meaning. Where did you find out that "are" was "were cast"? Also Chuck Missler made a point of them being still there when the devil is cast in.

[jenna]

You said you looked in the NKJV, correct? The verse I got was in the KJV, or the "old" one. Also, by italics, I mean it is slanted sideways, so when you read it again, look for the word "are" and it should italicised.

[Pierac]

You can not hold a literal meaning to the book of Revelation other wise you will have serious problems.

Rev 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Will a literal sword be sticking out of his mouth? I don't really think so

Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Will Jesus literally spit them out of His mouth? If so how did they get in there?

Rev 6:1 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."

Will a literal lamb break one of the seven seals with it's hoof ?

No this is all symbolism. It can not be taken literally.

Now look at Rev 20:10
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

There is no night and day in eternity. Forever and ever? Does forever need another ever?
This is a poor translation.

YLT Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

CLT Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

Even my “The Interlinear Bible Hebrew Greek English” by Jay P Green reads the ages of the ages.


Just what is the Lake of Fire?
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades (Hell) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Boy are there some theories on this one. No one knows the true meaning. Some see it as eternal torment, others as annihilation, and others the death of sin and flesh so that the spirit may live. One things for sure, one day soon we will all know!


Paul

[Jac3510]

The subject of the beast and false prophet were answered in another post. In the italics in the KJV, the word "are" is wrong. It should read "where the beast and false prophet WERE CAST. So they both have been put in the same place, but that doesn't mean that they will "be together".

What is your evidence that the supplied verb should be "were cast" rather than "are"? The verb must be supplied. It isn't expressly stated in the GNT. Word-for-word, we would render it:

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and sulfur, where [even/also] the beast and the false prophet, and they were tormented day and night forever.

So . . . either "are" or "were cast" or "had been thrown" . . . they all mean the same thing. You can't say the one or another is a mistranslation, and you sure as heck can't make a theological point off of an implied word.

[jenna]

"Are" and "were cast" do not mean the same thing. "Are" means they are still there. "Were cast" means that is the place they were put, but doesn't necessarily mean they are still there.

[frankbaginski]

Pierac,

No one takes every verse of the Bible in a literal sense. There are of course many literary similitudes

Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

IN fact there are over 200 different ways of conveying an idea in the Bible. Most are obvious to the reader. So when I take a verse literal I take it as presented in context of the writing. I do not take a graphic reference and make it into reality.

There has to be some level of accepted competence of the people on this board. If every word is argued for perfect meaning then we will get no where.

[Jac3510]

"Are" and "were cast" do not mean the same thing. "Are" means they are still there. "Were cast" means that is the place they were put, but doesn't necessarily mean they are still there.

That's all well and good, but I'm trying to find out what point you are making. Are you trying to make some theological distinction about the devil NOT being with the beast and false prophet based on an implied word? That's certainly very shaky ground. Or have I misunderstood you?

On that note, the reason the KJV supplies are rather than were cast probably has to do with this: "and they were tormented day and night forever." Notice "they" is plural. It doesn't say that the devil (singular) was tormented forever. It says THEY were tormented forever. And who is "they"? The devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

So, since they were all cast in the same place, and they all will be tormented together, it seems reasonable to supply with "are" rather than the more ambiguous "were cast." That would be my thinking if I were to translate the passage, anyway.

[jenna]

Actually "they" in this passage is the devil and his angels, not the beast and false prophet. To clarify this, please see Matt. 25:41.

[Jac3510]

Actually, no it isn't:

• 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"They" refers to Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. Whether or not anyone else is in the lake of fire isn't addressed in the passage.

[jenna]

No, not in that passage it isn't. That's why I referred you back to Matthew.