What Do You Do When You Start To Lose Faith?

[August]

Because I was created with a mind and an ability to think things through to a conclusion.

Who created this in you?

I did not say the bible did not contain truth. It contains much truth.

So which parts are not true? Are the parts that are true only the truth for you, or is it the truth for everyone?

and I allow for the fact that the OT was written thousand of years ago by men who perhaps borrowed ideas and concepts from myths and legends that preceded them

Which myths and legends would those be? Please quote specifics.

and the NT was written 2000 years ago by men, of a certain cultural persuasion that interpreted the things they experienced through their own cultural bias and in different languages.

So the Bible is only valid for a certain culture? How do you know this, did you speak to those men? How do you know what their intentions were?

And then the decision what books to include, what books not to include ... why should I trust the decisions that were made way back when as to what was "divinely inspired" and should be put in the bible, and what wasn't and should be left out?

Why should you trust your judgement as to what should be in there or not?

That's why I don't believe the bible literally ... but I can witness to it's essence, it's spirit.

How can you believe the essence without taking it literally? Please provide examples.

[seedling]

August writes: Who created this [mind and ability to think things through to a conclusion] in you?

Me: A Creator who I barely know created my mind and gave me myself and my abilities.

August: So which parts [of the bible] are not true? Are the parts that are true only the truth for you, or is it the truth for everyone?

Me: See below.

August: Which myths and legends would those be? Please quote specifics.

Me: See the following links to start with: http://www.cresourcei.org/enumaelish.html; http://www.cresourcei.org/langcaan.html. I can give you more, but there is alot to read in these. I have book suggestions also, if you want.

August: So the Bible is only valid for a certain culture? How do you know this, did you speak to those men? How do you know what their intentions were?

Me: I didn't say the bible is only valid for a certain culture at all! Read what I wrote. You are adding your own words to what I said. And no, I didn't speak to those men ... they spoke to me. and from their speaking I discern if what they are saying is ringing true to my spirit. I never said I knew what their intentions were ... I give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they spoke what they believed to be truth albeit through their cultural and religious biases.

August: Why should you trust your judgement as to what should be in there [the bible] or not?

Me: Because I trust myself, I don't doubt myself. The original problem with Adam & Eve was doubt. They didn't believe God. And God is in me because he made me. And because I know me, I trust myself over them. I don't know them. I don't know their motives. Read anything by Bart Ehrman. Look him up in http://www.amazon.com.

August: How can you believe the essence [of the bible] without taking it literally? Please provide examples.

Me: The essence of the bible is man's search beyond himself ... his hopes and dreams ... his yearnings. Basically, this book culminates in the life of Jesus, a whole man, a man who didn't have a dual nature. Who said love your neighbor as yourself and truly lived this and gave his life for this. They killed him because they could not stand his innocence. The Jewish religious leaders were the guiltiest of all ... they had the truth that they supposedly represented in their midst yet they clung on to their dead beliefs, their dead religion and their culture. Jesus was stripping away religion and culture. He did not come to create a new religion, "Christianity." He came to expose man-made religion, rules and regulations, and said to live by your heart. He made the way available to all peoples, not just the Jews. He came not to destroy the ten commandments, but to fulfill them. Not just to have them written outside of us, but to have them written on our hearts.

Whatever they said Jesus did ... changing water into wine, walking on water, multiplying the loaves and the fishes ... it doesn't matter if it really happened or not. The essense of it is ... this man changes the water in my life to wine [which cheers us] .. he has [spiritual food] enough for a crowd of 5,000 and he walks on top of the water[this life] without getting sucked under. I can mention other instances.

The Adam and Eve story, the two trees, these all have an essence, a spirit. I don't take them as literal. They are trying to tell you something. You have a choice. Deutoronomy says: "This day I set before life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore, chose life, that you and your seed may live and come into the good land which God has prepared etc etc. so I guess that's what I mean by essence, the spiritual concepts that the bible presents that feeds my spirit ... that gives me hidden manna. That I don't have to believe literally.

[Kurieuo]

Kurieo writes: "Errr... I think I see a little something I'm very disagreeable with, that is, Christianity is true for me, but not for others. The thing is I believe Christianity to be true, and so it is true for all. My belief isn't just a preference like a certain flavour of icecream."

I write: "Errr... I think I see a little something I'm very disagreeable with, that is, Islam is true for me, but not for others. The thing is I believe Islam to be true, and so it is true for all. My belief isn't just a preference like a certain flavour of icecream."

So what is the difference between these two sentences? It is your belief verses mine.

What is real and facts pertaining to each is what's different. Christianity is absolutely useless if it's gospel message isn't real.

Kurieuo.

[seedling]

"What is real and facts pertaining to each is what's different. Christianity is absolutely useless if it's gospel message isn't real."

Kurieuo, you are right. Christianity is absolutely useless if it's gospel message isn't real. And Jesus is the most real person that ever walked the earth. And his so-called followers that I have met throughout my life for the most part (there are exceptions) are just that ... "followers." They are not "understanders." They hold on to the trappings of Christianity, they thump the bible and can quote verse and chapter, but they never get real. The love Jesus had evades them. I would rather spend the day with a heathen sometimes than a Christian who is trying to be "christ-like." And even if you are of the belief that "Jesus is God" so he was perfect, but I can't be, I am still in the flesh ... well, you probably believe that you have "God's life in you" now that you are a Christian. So I say there is no excuse. Jesus said "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." And what is perfection? Innocence.

[Deborah]

"What is real and facts pertaining to each is what's different. Christianity is absolutely useless if it's gospel message isn't real."

Kurieuo, you are right. Christianity is absolutely useless if it's gospel message isn't real. And Jesus is the most real person that ever walked the earth. And his so-called followers that I have met throughout my life for the most part (there are exceptions) are just that ... "followers." They are not "understanders." They hold on to the trappings of Christianity, they thump the bible and can quote verse and chapter, but they never get real. The love Jesus had evades them. I would rather spend the day with a heathen sometimes than a Christian who is trying to be "christ-like." And even if you are of the belief that "Jesus is God" so he was perfect, but I can't be, I am still in the flesh ... well, you probably believe that you have "God's life in you" now that you are a Christian. So I say there is no excuse. Jesus said "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." And what is perfection? Innocence.

I have seen this too, but I disagree if they are not understanders of Christ then they are not followers, and the fact is they are not even Christian at all. I do not believe in bible bashing. I do not think Chritianity can be sold, it is earned.
Jesus when he went to places, people flocked to him to hear what he had to say. Why do you think that was? It was because of the way he was, the way he lived, we are asked to follow in his footsteps, and live our lives to the example he set us, (without crucifixion I hope) I truly believe that Christians who do this, inspire in their fellow man an yearning to understand and learn why is this so. This is the way jesus was, and I believe that God is asking us to set the example, as Jesus did for us.

[August]

Me: A Creator who I barely know created my mind and gave me myself and my abilities.

How do you know that?

Me: See the following links to start with: http://www.cresourcei.org/enumaelish.html; http://www.cresourcei.org/langcaan.html. I can give you more, but there is alot to read in these. I have book suggestions also, if you want.
I allow for the fact that the OT was written thousand of years ago by men who perhaps borrowed ideas and concepts from myths and legends that preceded them

Please prove that any of this has any influence on what was written in the Bible.

I didn't say the bible is only valid for a certain culture at all! Read what I wrote.

OK

NT was written 2000 years ago by men, of a certain cultural persuasion that interpreted the things they experienced through their own cultural bias and in different languages. And then the decision what books to include, what books not to include...

What did you mean then? If that is not what you meant, why say anything about their culture?

And no, I didn't speak to those men ... they spoke to me. and from their speaking I discern if what they are saying is ringing true to my spirit

How do you do that?

Because I trust myself, I don't doubt myself.

How do you know you can trust yourself?

And God is in me because he made me

How do you know that?

The essence of the bible is man's search beyond himself ... his hopes and dreams ... his yearnings.

How do you know that?

That I don't have to believe literally.

Please define literally.

I think I know what you are getting at. However, I can't agree with you that the Bible only has some truth in it.

I would consider changing my little message there "atheists are morons." There may be some truth seeking atheists on the board, and to be honest, it's not really a message that touches the heart or inspires confidence. It's kind of hostile... but, that's just my belief ...

No, but thanks for asking. Since I am a Christian, I will quote scripture in public places: Psalm 14:1

If atheists are truth-seeking they are not atheists, they are agnostics.

[Deborah]

I would consider changing my little message there "atheists are morons." There may be some truth seeking atheists on the board, and to be honest, it's not really a message that touches the heart or inspires confidence. It's kind of hostile... but, that's just my belief ...

No, but thanks for asking. Since I am a Christian, I will quote scripture in public places: Psalm 14:1

If atheists are truth-seeking they are not atheists, they are agnostics.

Tis true Gods word says they are fools, therefore they are all of the below.
ass, birdbrain, blockhead, bonehead, boob, bore, buffoon, butt, chump, clod, clown, cretin, dimwit, dolt, donkey, dope, dork, dumb ox, dunce, dunderhead, dupe, easy mark, fair game, fall guy, fathead, goat, gomeral, gomeril, goose, halfwit, idiot, ignoramus, illiterate, imbecile, innocent, jackass, jerk, lamebrain, laughing stock, lightweight, loon, lunkhead, meathead, moron, nerd, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, numskull, oaf, omadawn, ownshook, pushover, sap, schlemiel, silly, simpleton, stooge, sucker, turkey, twerp, twit, victim

If one does not believe in God then they are all of the above and more according to his word.
Agnostics are at least open minded.

[seedling]

August ... How do I know that a Creator gave me my mind, myself and my abilities? How do you think I know? Who else gave me them? No human did ... something, someone started the spark that created all things ... there seems to be an intelligence to creation ... don't you think? I have a brain and a spirit, I try to use it to THINK. What do you want me to say here ... THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO? That's how I know? and I believe every word the bible says because it is right out of the mouth of God to men inspired with His spirit? Sorry. I don't wish to play ring around the rosy with you. Pick apart every sentence, every word that you post like you did me in that last post of yours. Pick it apart till nothing makes sense at all, just fragments of words on a page. I send your questions right back to you … how do YOU know that? I guess the bible tells you so, huh. "Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so …." I have posted what I believe, I have provided my reasoning as far as I can see it from this moment in my life ... no one has given me any intelligent response except maybe Kurieou. So take it or leave it. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Deborah, your vocabulary is truly impressive ... I can feel the love ...

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/8/11/122314/147

[Deborah]

If god can inspire our spirits then surely it's not hard to believe that he inspired men to write his words.
To prove that the word of god is 100% inspired by God, he tells us to research and study it for ourselves. Only then may we understand it.
If you want to disprove his word you must at least study and research it.
Many have tried to disprove, many have taken years to research. it might take years but they end up believers, now these people are not just the average joe like people like me, and alot of them seem to realize that there is something to it.
I for one am doing as instructed and studying and researching to find truth and understand it.
but if you are here telling us the bible is a crock, without even bothering to look into it yourself, you don't even have the excuse of misunderstanding what is written. What is worse is that you are contaminating a christian with shakey faith all because either you don't have faith yourself or what is worse just for the fun of it.
We have all had our faith tested, our faith is real to us so are our beliefs.
I don't go bible bashing where I am not wanted, but your bible bashing in a different way, and your shaking faith. that might not seem like a hell of alot for you, but it is to us who believe we must earn our place in eternity.
If you want to mouth off about the word of god at least know what your talking about!

Deborah, your vocabulary is truly impressive ... I can feel the love ...

lol don;t blame me blame the thesaurus.

[Deborah]

My apologies, but i get tired of defending my beliefs, and I get so sick of hearing you Christians are ALL hippocrates. This was the reason I left the other message board. I remember when my faith was shaky, I remember staring death in the face and it scared the hell out of me. I know why I lost my faith, it was because I never bothered to learn about God, and I realised that because I did not bother learning about god I did not truly believe. But when I came face to face with a God sent experience there was no more what if. It was people telling me that the bible was just a story that made me turn away from my faith years ago and lose it.

Your belief that the bible is the false word of god, is speculation and not based on proof. Yet you are quite happy to post unproven biased posts under a topic where someone has asked for help because they are already on shaky ground. I have been where Brian is, and I almost lost everything. you think the bible is a fairytale, well prove it! if your not prepared to spend the time proving it then back off.
Once again i opoligise, I should be happy and I am, I received as a gift ultimate proof and my faith and I will spend the rest of my life studying the word of God as he instructs and praying for his guidance to understand the knowledge that surfaced in me that day. People think that something wonderful happened to me that day, well it did I found god, but something terrible happened too, I looked into the face of death and I realised I was not saved, you have no idea of the terror, it still scares the hell out of me.

[seedling]

Hi Deborah,

I have read and studied the bible since I was 16. That's 27 years. Like yourself, I am just an average joe. I was "born again" when I was 17. I am not bashing the bible or saying it is a crock or it's "just a story." I don't mean to come across that way. I love the bible. Reading it probably saved my life. I just look at it with a different understanding now, I guess. Based on what I have experienced and read over the years. What I have come to realize about people. A different understanding that is helping me put together pieces I have always been puzzled about.

But a question for you to think about is ... you said that you have been where Brian is and you were on shaky ground and almost lost everything. I believe that once you have real faith, true faith ... you never lose it. It is like it is burned into your heart and it never goes away. And I don't need any book to tell me that. Like if I am blind and always wondering what the colors looks like. Then suddenly for 5 minutes, miraculously I can see … and I see the colors. Then my sight is taken away again, and I am blind. But I will never forget what colors look like … I have experienced them. Faith is a simple trust that I have in my spirit in the Creator of all things. Because He made my spirit. My faith has been tried and tested ... and it will be tried and test more sorely in the future, I imagine. And perhaps it will feel like it is being lost. But I trust I will never lose it, because I know I have seen something real.

There will be many people that will try to make you doubt what you know in your heart. Some very smart, very educated people. Sometimes it is good to engage them ... it makes you stronger. It makes your mind sharp. Shows the weak spots in your armor.

Anyway, thank you for your candor. I appreciate talking to you, and I am sorry if I hurt you or confused you in any way. I absolutely do not want to destroy anyone's faith. If it is true faith, I cannot destroy it. I have no such power. And it sounds like something wonderful did happen to you on that day ... it seems a paradox that sometimes the most wonderful things happen out of the greatest tragedies. I understand that and I am joyful for you.

[Joel Freeman]

I believe that once you have real faith, true faith ... you never lose it.

I would be careful with that type of mindset. I've seen the most spiritual people fall into pits in a matter of days, without ever going back to God.

What is real, true faith? and would we as humans and as sinners really be able to attain that kind of faith?

[Anonymous]

I'll add my part to this conversation. I believe in MY opinion that some of the OLD TESTEMENT were stories but not all. More research is confirming biblical locations in the Old and New TESTEMENT but can't be proven because we can't go back in time. I think everyone should be fine at were they are at when it comes to different religions. They share one thing in common - God. BUT the Bible does hold the most information on the creation of the universe unlike any of the other religions. The Bible teaches love, not hate unlike some religions that say kill all the other religious people that arn't your religion and you will die in peace with many virgins in heaven, sorry, but that is very unlikely. There never was love in killing other religions. The other thing at least to my knowledge is that there was no other Bible before it in its time. I am not aware of any book for atheists that came at the time of the Bible or before it. Faith is something that we must stick to to our hearts no matter what our secular world says. There are many good books out there for Christianity and confirm the existence of a creator, Jesus and the like. Most preferably would be any book from Lee Strobel such as The Case for a Creator, The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, etc.. All great books.

[Deborah]

Hi Seedling

Yes seems I get confused easy these days

But a question for you to think about is ... you said that you have been where Brian is and you were on shaky ground and almost lost everything. I believe that once you have real faith, true faith ... you never lose it. It is like it is burned into your heart and it never goes away.

I can see where your coming from, but this is where I came from,
we are all born with a measure of faith, even when I became born again all those years ago, my faith remained stagnant. Why? because I did not bother to learn about God. I thought it was enough to just accept Jesus as savour. but now I look back and I see that I probably was agnostic way back then, I would think that if I had truly believed then I would have bothered to get to know the Lord. I simply misunderstood what faith is.
You are right though, my renewed faith did not come from the bible, it came from God during that experience I had, but it did not appear easily, infact for a couple of weeks I was to afraid to tell anyone about it because I thought no one would believe me and call me a looney. But I couldn't deny what happened and finally I accepted that something had, so I looked into science and when I found that Science supported the possibility of God my faith began to flicker, the more I looked into it the stronger my faith became. I remember sitting on the floor in the bathroom when I locked myself in there because I was afraid. I asked god why he bothered to save me, at that time I was pretty sick and with so much fear that i would hurt one of my kids I had actually contemplated hurting myself instead, and I mean really hurting myself and that scared me. you see that is how I handled losing my temper, I knew and I was afraid of hurting one of the children so I would hurt myself just enough to bring myself back into control, but this time it was different and I can not truly tell you if I wanted to hurt myself or kill myself, I just wanted it to stop because those kids meant everything to me. (this was not the near death exp I had, this was caused by the depression that never left me after I was told I was cancer free, I really thought it would, but it did not go as it had in previous years) Sitting on that floor I decided to go and get help and I got it that very day. When the medication started to take effect I truly gave myself into the hands of god, maybe I did it before that. But I know for certain now that my life belongs to God and I will do everything and anything to learn about God and come to an understanding of what it is that he instilled in me that day. it is true now I can never lose my faith, but before my experience, I never knew or more correctly reconised what faith was.

sorry for my long waffle, I came from a place (message board) where Christian beliefs are always attacked, where we are called names. Where tolerance is not in their vocabulary. Best thing I did was find this board join it and leave the other one.

My apoligies to going off topic, I just had to get this out, and it's easier to do it here than in real life. I don't have the strenght yet to do it in real life.

[seedling]

Deborah,

Your post made me cry. It is not off-topic, it is about faith. And it really touched me.

I, too, was "born again" when a teen. I decided to take the Lord's way. I asked him to come into my life. I told him I wanted my soul to be in his hands, not my own. Not a bad start ... but for the next 20 something years, I was a tree producing two kinds of fruit ... one of righteousness and one of unrighteousness.

I would study the bible with people in my church ... I loved the bible and still do ... and would attend many meetings and conferences ... and then, for whatever reason, I would freak ... I would think ... I can't do this ... there is something wrong here, I just can't be like this, this isn't ME ... and I would jump back into the "world" ... and I don't just mean the world, I mean the BAD world ... I liked the way certain drugs made me forget, made my mind stop thinking, slowed me down, chilled me out ... but that wasn't ME either. Then something bad would happen, and I would wake up a little and make up my mind to be a good person and get back to church and start "talking" to the Lord again. Then the process would start again, each time I left the church and went into the world, I would fall lower and lower. I was basically empty inside, and filled myself with either "church and the things of God" or drugs and the things of the world. And I didn't so much care which it was, as long as it was meeting my need ... filling this emptiness within. It was like ... I had no control. I was an extremely angry and depressed girl. I basically wanted to die. I mean, I didn't say "I am going to kill myself" but ... my behavior was such that ... I was living a dangerous life in many ways. I was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Looking back, I am amazed and aghast ... and so very ashamed. Because I am someone who should have known better. Yet I was confused, and the confusion made me angry. I will carry the scars from those days all of my life. Or so it seems.

During this time I also started listening to a man named Roy Masters on the radio. He is like a Judeo-Christian preacher/psychologist. He really knows how to get to the heart of a matter ... alot of people think he is controversial, but many things he said woke me up and made sense to me. He really really helped me alot. He is a no-nonsense type and teaches a Judeo-Christian meditation that makes you objective and aware, that brings you out of your racing thoughts and feelings which often blind us to what is truly going on in our lives. That makes you look at situations differently. Be still and know. Be still and know that I am God. So this meditation helped me greatly.

When I finally decided I was going to see this Way, this Path of discovery of God, this Christian walk, through to the end and stop the extreme bouncing back and forth, I feel I finally started to make some progress. I stopped trying to put God in a box ... for starters, I stopped trying to translate or figure out in my head what he was trying to tell me. I stopped feeling that if good things happened, he was pleased with me, if bad things happened, I did something wrong. No ... he causes the rain to fall on the good and the evil alike. I stopped playing little God head games in my head. I realized that for me, the bible only contained God in a limited way and the writers of the bible wrote about him in a limited way. I'm not saying this is bad ... It was a good beginning ... but I knew there was more.

I also really started looking at what Jesus said while he walked the earth ... his basic message is to love one another. And he demonstrated it in everything he said and did. In church I struggled to understand the blood sacrifice, his blood washes me clean, is Jesus God or the son of God, the ritual of baptism, etc etc etc ... all these Jewish and Christian concepts and doctrines. But the man Jesus said "love your neighbor as yourself." Jesus tells me to love myself. And why not ... the Creator made me and supplied me with everything I need ... and real love is a miracle healer. This world doesn't need big miracles or to understand religious doctrine. It just needs real love ... the kind Jesus had. That would be miracle enough, no? If everyone loved like Jesus, there would be peace on earth, and the kingdom of heaven would be here, we wouldn't have to "go" anywhere.

So I think ... I have found what was missing in my life, even though I had the bible and studied it and proclaimed loudly to anyone who would listen how much I wanted to KNOW GOD, it was the only thing that mattered in my life. What was missing in my life was ... ME. God gave myself to me first. Look at the miracles that are right in front of you. God said to me (through people, places and things) get to know yourself. Get to know your heart. I made your heart. And guard it above all things, for from it flows the streams of life. Get to know my creation. Get to know people ... and love them anyway, dont judge them ... Then ... after a while ... you might just get to know a little bit about Me ...

So that's my experience up to this point in my life. I know it sounds unorthodox, but it is what it is. If I were to die tomorrow, it would be OK with me. Because I have tasted real love. And I trust my Creator and have an unshakeable faith that everything is unfolding as it should.