God + love + hell = ?

[jenna]

Maybe he would have been upset if he had actually been in heaven....

[BavarianWheels]

Maybe he would have been upset if he had actually been in heaven....

My point exactly.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

How exactly do you come by this belief, F.L.?

Here is your answer:

There are several places in the Bible where God gives us a glimpse into the "afterlife." In the matter of After death, are we conscious and with a body? I offer the following snippets from the Bible as evidence that yes is the answer to both parts of the question:

-The story of Saul, Samuel and the witch at Endor in 1 Sa 28:11-16. Here, God allows Samuel to return from the "afterlife" and he is recognised by King Saul, "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe...she said" Then Saul knew it was Samuel . Observations: the dead prophet Samuel had a body, was recognizable and was wearing something. He was also conscious and had something to say.

-The story of the Transfiguration in Mt 17:1-4. Here, two men show up that the text identifies as Moses and Elijah. Peter apparently (instinctively? through the Holy Spirit?) regognizes them and askes If you wish, I will put up three shelters - one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah. Observations: two dead guys show up for a chat with Jesus. They were recognized by Peter as being Moses & Elijah, and both appeared to be conscious.

-The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell that Bavarian Wheels spoke of above, in Lk 16:19-31. Here, Jesus gives us a glimpse into the torment awaiting those in Hell. In Hell, where he was in torment...he looked up and saw Abraham...with Lazarus at his side..."Father Abraham...send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue because I am in agony"... Observations: 3 deads guys in the story, all recognizable to each other. The rich man in Hell and Abraham in Heaven are concious enough to have a conversation.

-Take a look at Rev 6:9-11...I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word...They called out in a loud voice "How long...Lord...until You judge...and avenge our blood? Here, the martyrs appear to be conscious and in communication with God; Then each of them was given a white robe... and, they may have a body to hang their white robe on.

There is a possibility that these stories are allegorical. Even so, they point towards an "afterlife" that is at least conscious and where people are recognizable.

You decide.

FL

[frankbaginski]

Hi all,

Just a few thoughts about God making man. First of all God loves to create. The beauty in the universe and the possible beauty of man is testament to this. God desires to be recognized by the creatures He has given free will too. Now God could have made robots with no free will but that means they would have no capacity for love as well. Since love is the driving creative engine of God, then His creation must be able to love. Love can be misdirected, this is the unwise use of free will. Satan was the first to love himself instead of the creator. The love of self manifest itself in pride which we all know God hates. So if you are God you have a choice to not create or allow the possibility of Your creation to wander from an acceptable path. So do You stop creating souls because some will go bad. I think the love of God would never allow Him to stop His creation even knowing that some would fall. I think the joy that God has over a saved soul makes up for the sorrow He has for those that fail. The mechanics of what He does with wayward souls is His business.

Of course this is just mans logic and may nothing to do with anything. I of course cannot know God's mind. But I do know that His choice to make man allowed me to exist and I thank Him every day.

[BavarianWheels]

How exactly do you come by this belief, F.L.?

Here is your answer:

There are several places in the Bible where God gives us a glimpse into the "afterlife." In the matter of After death, are we conscious and with a body? I offer the following snippets from the Bible as evidence that yes is the answer to both parts of the question:

-The story of Saul, Samuel and the witch at Endor in 1 Sa 28:11-16. Here, God allows Samuel to return from the "afterlife" and he is recognised by King Saul, "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe...she said" Then Saul knew it was Samuel . Observations: the dead prophet Samuel had a body, was recognizable and was wearing something. He was also conscious and had something to say.

Interesting to note: If the spirit that the witch conjurs up is from heaven...why does it come up from the ground???

-The story of the Transfiguration in Mt 17:1-4. Here, two men show up that the text identifies as Moses and Elijah. Peter apparently (instinctively? through the Holy Spirit?) regognizes them and askes If you wish, I will put up three shelters - one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah. Observations: two dead guys show up for a chat with Jesus. They were recognized by Peter as being Moses & Elijah, and both appeared to be conscious.

Doesn't the Bible say both these men were taken by God?

-The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell that Bavarian Wheels spoke of above, in Lk 16:19-31. Here, Jesus gives us a glimpse into the torment awaiting those in Hell. In Hell, where he was in torment...he looked up and saw Abraham...with Lazarus at his side..."Father Abraham...send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue because I am in agony"... Observations: 3 deads guys in the story, all recognizable to each other. The rich man in Hell and Abraham in Heaven are concious enough to have a conversation.

Oh this is the best one yet. Tell me how every tear will be wiped when the fires of hell are "visible" from heaven where the parent of a lost child can watch his/her child burn in everlasting fire? Not only this...but they can communicate while in the pain of burning???? My God delights in the suffering not only of the wicked...but of the saved too? Negative. Sorry...this is a parable to teach something different other than hell's relative position to heaven.

-Take a look at Rev 6:9-11...I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word...They called out in a loud voice "How long...Lord...until You judge...and avenge our blood? Here, the martyrs appear to be conscious and in communication with God; Then each of them was given a white robe... and, they may have a body to hang their white robe on.

Wasn't this a vision? Visions usually aren't reality.

There is a possibility that these stories are allegorical. Even so, they point towards an "afterlife" that is at least conscious and where people are recognizable.

You decide.

FL

It's more than a possibility. Certainly there is an afterlife. It's called the Resurrection at the time of Christ's return. Why...if the dead in Christ are already in heaven...will the graves open up? For what purpose? Do you think God has taken the dead person to heaven to live while awaiting the time for Christ's second coming...then all of a sudden those that have been in heaven enjoying themselves are back (not back really because they never were really in there) in their grave and coming up to meet their Savior...and be surprised? Doesn't sound very logical to me.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Interesting to note: If the spirit that the witch conjurs up is from heaven...why does it come up from the ground???

Who cares? and why is this important?

Doesn't the Bible say both these men were taken by God?

No. Moses died a natural death. You are right in that Elijah was taken.

Oh this is the best one yet. Tell me how every tear will be wiped when the fires of hell are "visible" from heaven where the parent of a lost child can watch his/her child burn in everlasting fire? Not only this...but they can communicate while in the pain of burning???? My God delights in the suffering not only of the wicked...but of the saved too? Negative. Sorry...this is a parable to teach something different other than hell's relative position to heaven.

Wasn't this a vision? Visions usually aren't reality.

My point was to show that a soul in Hell was conscious. Every other point you brought up is another subject which has nothing to do with the question I was answering.

It's more than a possibility. Certainly there is an afterlife. It's called the Resurrection at the time of Christ's return. Why...if the dead in Christ are already in heaven...will the graves open up? For what purpose? Do you think God has taken the dead person to heaven to live while awaiting the time for Christ's second coming...then all of a sudden those that have been in heaven enjoying themselves are back (not back really because they never were really in there) in their grave and coming up to meet their Savior...and be surprised? Doesn't sound very logical to me.

There are many questions above...your Bible can answer them all.

FL

[jenna]

Are the dead concious? Psalms 146:4 "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth, in that very day his thoughts perish".
Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing".
If the dead are concious, they would have some sort of thought, or know something, would they not?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Are the dead concious? Psalms 146:4 "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth, in that very day his thoughts perish".
Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing".
If the dead are concious, they would have some sort of thought, or know something, would they not?

Ps 146:1-4...the context here is the life in the physical world, as seen by verse 3; the death spoken of in verse 4 is the physical death which would make their plans come to nothing.*

Ecc 9:1-10...again, the context is life in the physical world, which is why the living know that they will die* but those returned to dust have no further reward* in this life and even the memory of them is forgotten.* Furthere evidence that verse 5 refers to the physical world can be seen in verse 6, ...never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.*

FL

*NIV

[jenna]

The context may be about life, but it does plainly state the dead know nothing. Also, read Psalms 115:17. And Psalms 6:5. These both say that the dead have no memory and are "silent". If there are people in hell now, they would not be silent, and they would remember God. The same could be said if they had gone to heaven after death.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Both quotes you refer to (Ps 6:5 & Ps 115:17) speak of the physical life and the physical grave, the return to dust or Sheol.

I can't help but feeling that we are debating over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! None of this is really important for those of us invited to Christ's wedding feast...but, if you're going to Hell, I guess it's better to be unconscious until the Judgement, then tossed into the fire for a quick burn into oblivion.

That makes Hell so much more acceptable.

FL

[BavarianWheels]

Interesting to note: If the spirit that the witch conjurs up is from heaven...why does it come up from the ground???

Who cares? and why is this important?

Doesn't the Bible say both these men were taken by God?

No. Moses died a natural death. You are right in that Elijah was taken.

Oh this is the best one yet. Tell me how every tear will be wiped when the fires of hell are "visible" from heaven where the parent of a lost child can watch his/her child burn in everlasting fire? Not only this...but they can communicate while in the pain of burning???? My God delights in the suffering not only of the wicked...but of the saved too? Negative. Sorry...this is a parable to teach something different other than hell's relative position to heaven.

Wasn't this a vision? Visions usually aren't reality.

My point was to show that a soul in Hell was conscious. Every other point you brought up is another subject which has nothing to do with the question I was answering.

It's more than a possibility. Certainly there is an afterlife. It's called the Resurrection at the time of Christ's return. Why...if the dead in Christ are already in heaven...will the graves open up? For what purpose? Do you think God has taken the dead person to heaven to live while awaiting the time for Christ's second coming...then all of a sudden those that have been in heaven enjoying themselves are back (not back really because they never were really in there) in their grave and coming up to meet their Savior...and be surprised? Doesn't sound very logical to me.

There are many questions above...your Bible can answer them all.

FL

Why is it important where the spirit the witch conjured came from? It makes all the difference in the world! Does not the Adversary have the ability to imitate spirits?

The questions at the end were for you to answer for me...not point me back to the Bible. By doing so, it seems you're just avoiding these questions.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Listen BavarianWheels,

If you read the account of Saul, Samuel and the witch you will understand that the spirit that came out of the ground was that of Samuel. Why? because the spirit said, essentially, "I told you so." The spirit confirmed the living-Samuel's prophecy. A spirit of lies would have said something else.

As for your series of questions, I will not answer them because I prefer to stick to one topic at a time, that is: individual conscious existence in the "afterlife".

FL

[BavarianWheels]

A spirit of lies would have said something else.

Really. A spirit of LIES wouldn't lie about who he/she is? Your logic astounds me.

As for your series of questions, I will not answer them because I prefer to stick to one topic at a time, that is: individual conscious existence in the "afterlife".

FL

They have everything to do with the afterlife. If there is one immediately after our physical death here on earth. Those questions pertain exactly to the point of souls being alive after death.

I'm trying to LISTEN...but I'm not hearing anything.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

BavarianWheels,

Here is some homework for you:

-Read 1 Samuel 15. There, you will read the prohecy the living Samuel made to King Saul.
-Read 1 Samuel 28. There, you will read the fulfillment of the prophecy made in 1 Sa 15; there also, you will read a prophesy made by the spirit of Samuel to King Saul, namely that he would die the next day.
-Read 1 Samuel 31. There you will read the fulfillment of the prophecy made by the spirit of Samuel.

If you insist on believing that the spirit of Samuel (1 Sa 28:14) was some imposter from the Evil One after the "homework," go ahead. As for the series of other questions you asked, they DO pertain to the afterlife, but they have nothing to do with my point here which - I repeat - is individual consciousness in the afterlife, and nothing else.

FL

[BavarianWheels]

...but they have nothing to do with my point here which - I repeat - is individual consciousness in the afterlife, and nothing else.

FL

Ok...where are these individuals in the afterlife?

You seem to assume because a prophecy comes true...it is of God. Cannot Satan make his own predictions and/or in his intimate knowledge of God, know what can/will happen? You seem to think Satan can only lie to us. He lied to Eve, but told her the truth...twisted truth.

"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

He didn't lie about being like God...knowing good and evil. She soon found out what being good and evil was. His prophecy was true. Their eyes were opened...not only were they like God, knowing good and evil, but soon found that they were naked.
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