controversial scriptures

[jenna]

This one is a tough one for me.

On one hand I know we have a loving God. So I know He wants all to come to Him. Our reward is to be with Him, He knows more than we do what we need. This of course is heaven. Now the people who chose to turn from God are not rewarded but punished. I have often wondered if the lake of fire is a fire of desire to be with God that can never be fullfilled. The Bible does not contain grey areas when concerning the matters of God, it is pretty black and white. So I think that when it says for ever and ever it means it. The lake of fire may be just that, a lake of fire. I hope not.

The lake of fire is just that, a lake of fire. And when people are thrown into it, they burn up and are gone forever. The PUNISHMENT is forever and ever, not the PUNISHING.

[frankbaginski]

Jenna,

I understand your view I just don't agree with it.

[jenna]

Jenna,

I understand your view I just don't agree with it.

Point made. I never said you had to agree, but at least you can understand where I am coming from.

[B. W.]

Jenna,I understand your view I just don't agree with it.

Point made. I never said you had to agree, but at least you can understand where I am coming from.

I will post a response from another thread here and hope it helps along with a few edits:

No, God never ceases to be loving and merciful. The idea of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly and is nowhere backed up in scripture. However, hell is real, but the ones thrown in hell will simply burn up and be gone forever. This IS backed up by scripture.

As for your next argument Jen and also to help clarify for others honest inquiries:

God granted the gift of life to humanity - as we live - saint or sinner - this spirit of life is his and gives us our being. It is a demonstration of mercy and love that he does not annihilate into non-existence but rather instead grants those that reject him a place they chose.Romans 1:20, Romans 2:2-11.

The bible declares in Job 34:14-15 that this is true: "If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust." ESV

It is his breath of life he gives. You have life on loan from God. What will you or I do with it?

I understand how you feel about people being in eternal torment forever for finite sins but what of God's position on this matter and his perspective? His mercy and love is far above our moral and mortal comprehension . You compare finite sins being punished forever rather as extreme'overkill' but is it really when in fact, in eternity, these little sins lead to ruin in perpetuity if not contained Matthew 5:21-48, Mark 9:42-50? So to annihilate according to your view as fairer but would this not violate God's own gift and word he promises to keep? [And - Yes Jen Jesus says Hell is eternal as well as the punishment — the bible does so teach this see the bible links.]

Romans 11:29, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” To annihilate into non-being would make God a lair about this. That is why it is his will for eternal punishment which is just recompenses never ending. To allow these the benefit of annihilation would in essence prove these got away with sin. A place of containment is more merciful than that of extinction, no matter how everlasting the ruin.

If one rejects the Lord, he rejects them. Fair is fair. If one rejects him in this life what makes you think in eternity they would not continue to abuse the goodness of God? How can God be true to his own Goodness if he annihilates? Rather would not Goodness design a place of containment to contain evil where it can run amuck and burn freely, revealing the ruin one chose instead of God?

God does all he can to keep a person from going into the eternal pit of ruin, in fact thrice with a man. Despite this, you still call God unjust, unkind, unloving, not merciful to send off the rejecters to eternal recompense?

Job 33:26-32, “…Then man prays to God, and he [God] accepts him; he [this man] sees his [God's] face with a shout of joy, and he [God] restores to man his righteousness. 27 He [the man] sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He [God] has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.' 29 "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. 31 Pay attention, O Job, listen to me; be silent, and I will speak. 32 If you have any words, answer me; speak, for I desire to justify you.33 If not, listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom.” ESV

What proves mercy true — a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love's reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?

And - Jen - you still want to call God's eternal recompense unfair, silly, or even stupid?
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[jenna]

And again, My answer to that is I never called God's recompense silly or stupid or unfair.

[B. W.]

And again, My answer to that is I never called God's recompense silly or stupid or unfair.

Hmmm????? Are you sure????

No, God never ceases to be loving and merciful. The idea of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly and is nowhere backed up in scripture. However, hell is real, but the ones thrown in hell will simply burn up and be gone forever. This IS backed up by scripture.

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[jenna]

Yes, I said that the IDEA of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly. But that isn't God's recompense, but an idea of man.

[B. W.]

Yes, I said that the IDEA of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly. But that isn't God's recompense, but an idea of man.

Are you sure??? hmmm...

Mark 9:42-46 "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 So if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life injured than to have two hands and go to hell, to the fire that cannot be put out. 44 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 46 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out." ISV

Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus said -- "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire." ESV

Job 26:4-6, "With whose help have you uttered words, and whose breath has come out from you? 5 The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. 6 Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering." ESV

Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol..." ESV

Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV

The Second Death...

Rev 20:13-15, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." ESV

Matthew 25:41, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..."

Mathew 25:46, Jesus said -"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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[Pierac]

B.W. wrote:

Are you sure??? hmmm...

How about…
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

B.W. If you love Jesus you will keep His Commandments!


ESV Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:44 (OMITTED TEXT) Why are these omitted? Do some research!
Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar 9:46 (OMITTED TEXT)
Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

What does Jesus command here?
if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off

if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off

if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out

Did you do as Jesus commanded? Do you not love him? Do you still have your hands and feet and eyes?
It's amazing how people can pick and choose what sections they want to believe and completely ignore the rest. If you don't really believe Jesus wants you to cut off body parts then why do you believe the rest is a literal interpretation?

Jesus tells you the words I speak are Spirit (John 6:63)

[B. W.]

B.W. wrote:

Are you sure??? hmmm...

How about…
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

B.W. If you love Jesus you will keep His Commandments!

ESV Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:44 (OMITTED TEXT) Why are these omitted? Do some research!
Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar 9:46 (OMITTED TEXT)
Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

What does Jesus command here?
if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off

if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off

if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out

Did you do as Jesus commanded? Do you not love him? Do you still have your hands and feet and eyes?
It's amazing how people can pick and choose what sections they want to believe and completely ignore the rest. If you don't really believe Jesus wants you to cut off body parts then why do you believe the rest is a literal interpretation?

Jesus tells you the words I speak are Spirit (John 6:63)

Pierac -- Do you keep his commandments??

Pierac - Do you still have your hands and feet and eyes???
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[Pierac]

Hi B.W.

Yes, I have all my body parts.

That's because I know this entire verse is NOT Literal!

Now how many worms do you know that survive in fire? ZERO!

The word hell here is Gehenna
Strongs tells us…gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

Used figuratively! Says who? Show me in scripture where Jesus explains this! You can not as it is a tradition of men.

In explaining "Gehenna," one can walk through this valley even today and return unscathed by its fires and untouched by the worms which actually consumed a good part of the religious Priestly community of Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Their bodies were piled up and their blood ran down into this very valley which Jesus prophesied would be the disgraceful burial place for hundreds of thousands of Jews of that very generation Jesus was speaking to. Please remember, it was not the heathen, not the street sinner, not the Roman who found themselves in this "hell" as the KJV wants to render it-it was God's own people-even more-it was those who thought they were closer to God than anyone else on the earth. Beware, Christian, that you do not find yourself committing the same mistake!
Whatever this valley represented in the Old Testament must be carried over to the New Testament. Nowhere in the Old Testament is this place translated "Hell" and nowhere in the Old Testament is there a hint that this place referred to a place of eternal punishment after death. The word which Jesus referred to most often which the King James Bible unfortunately chose to render "hell," in the New Testament, but did not do so in the Old Testament, is this word "Hinnom" or Ge-hinnom (valley of Hinnom) or "Ge-ben-hinnom" (valley of the sons of Hinnom) which was transliterated into the Greek as "gehenna." A thorough study of this place in the Old Testament will dispel much myth regarding its significance. The Scriptural references for such a study are: Josh. 15:8; 18:16; 2 Kings 9:7; 15:3,4; 23:10, 36, 39; Ez. 23:37,39; 2 Chr. 28:3; Lev. 18:21; 20:2; Jer. 7:30-32; 19:2-6; 32:35. Remember, this place is never referred to as "Hell" in the Old Testament. References to this very same place in the New Testament are: Matt. 5:22; 5:29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43; 9:45; 9:47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. It should be mentioned that most of these references come from Jesus' mouth and every reference to this word "gehenna" was addressed to God's own people, not to the nations around Israel.

Paul

[B. W.]

Hi B.W.
Yes, I have all my body parts.
That's because I know this entire verse is NOT Literal!
Now how many worms do you know that survive in fire? ZERO!

The word hell here is Gehenna
Strongs tells us…gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

Used figuratively! Says who? Show me in scripture where Jesus explains this! You can not as it is a tradition of men.

In explaining "Gehenna," one can walk through this valley even today and return unscathed by its fires and untouched by the worms which actually consumed a good part of the religious Priestly community of Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D....Paul

Since as you claim Mark 9:43-48 is not literal then why should we believe what you say is literal about Gehenna?

You obviously do not understand biblical symbolism. The Bible says God will cover his people with feathers — Psalms 91:4 -

So should his be taken that God is Big Bird?? Or is a feathered being?

Gehenna is a symbol of hell as is Sheol. There are other names for the same place such as the pit, Sheol, place of the shades, plus other names use in the Old Testament for Hell.

Gehenna symbolizes Hell as a trash dump, a place that brings out the worst in people —their filth, depravity, hate, crimes, their motives exposed. If it is not a symbol then is God is Big Bird…and we are all on the way to Sesame Street!

So only, You, know what is literal and what is not? How can we listen to you since you were wrong about the Church Fathers?

The Doctrine of Annihilationism first appeared from a forth Century named Arnobius of Sicca [died 330 AD]. His works were condemned later by the 2 Council of Constantinople [553] and later during the Lateran Council [1652-62]. Annihilationism reappeared in Socinian doctrine and Arian doctrine and then later in fringe groups today.

It is a flawed system of theology and up held by the works of Fudge, Stewart. Powys, Pennock, Travis, Stott, Green — most of whom you almost quote verbatim…

You are defending absolute extinction — which would make God's mercy not everlasting to everlasting as His word says it is but again to your doctrine, everlasting is not everlasting and therefore God cannot be either. Well, go ahead and teach against the deepness of God's mercy…

What proves mercy true — a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love's reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?

Extinction for finite sins??? That defies mercy! love! and God's goodness! Who should God serve? - You because you find his absolute justice repugnant because he does not make one absolutely extinct on your terms and justification? Or rather because of his justice, he gives those that reject him what they want — a place without God forever as he does will that these be served just recompense to prove he is God true to himself and not you.

Deny it all you like. You are more interested in appealing to men rather than knowing God. Eternal absolute extinction does not even make the devil tremble or the worst serial killer care. They would have gotten away with all their crimes as well as proved to God himself is a liar by having no mercy, no justice, a God of the dead and not the living, taking his gift of life away. So I ask would you, like the devil, like nothing more than to have God live eternally with that? Understand now how Satan rebelled and why evil exist mocking God...
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[jenna]

1) Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
2) Ezekiel 18:4, 20. "The soul that sins, it shall DIE".
3) Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell".
4) John 5:28-29 "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES shall hear His voice and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."
Passages 1,2,3 show that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.
Passage 3 shows that the soul CAN, and will, be destroyed by God if you are a sinner.
Passage 4 shows that ALL people, saints and sinners alike, are in the grave awaiting resurrection.
Am I sure? YES!

[frankbaginski]

I have always looked at Mark 9:43-48 as a statement of who sins. It is not your hand, or your foot, and not your eyes. It is the spirit in each of us. So to me the verses are saying to cast out that part of your spirit that allows you to sin. Then replace that with the spirit of God which will never make you sin. The word "if" is critical to the verses. It makes you question the statement and seek just who does the sin.

B.W.

You quote Job which is rare. I think the book of Job is way more than any commentary I have ever read about it. I placed in the scripture section a post on a second level of communication in the friends speaking. If you could read it and comment on it I would greatly appreciate it.

[YLTYLT]

1) Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
2) Ezekiel 18:4, 20. "The soul that sins, it shall DIE".

Jen,
Does this WAGE of sin, being DEATH, refer to the physical DEATH or our spiritual DEATH (which I believe may also be called the "second DEATH" in revelation) ?