Once Saved always saved?

[catherine]

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first posting. I'm not sure if this idea is one shared by GodandScience, but I noticed a member stating this about himself. I have always belived that you can lose your salvation if you do not remain in the truth. Look at Heb.10:26,27 and Heb. 6:4-6. Matt.24:13 also speaks of 'enduring to the end'. I know a lot of churches believe this once saved always saved but I just can't see this in light of these verses. There are others but I can't remember where they are (the one where Paul is talking about fleshly Israel and the gentiles being grafted in). Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[jenna]

Welcome Catherine.

[BavarianWheels]

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first posting. I'm not sure if this idea is one shared by GodandScience, but I noticed a member stating this about himself. I have always belived that you can lose your salvation if you do not remain in the truth. Look at Heb.10:26,27 and Heb. 6:4-6. Matt.24:13 also speaks of 'enduring to the end'. I know a lot of churches believe this once saved always saved but I just can't see this in light of these verses. There are others but I can't remember where they are (the one where Paul is talking about fleshly Israel and the gentiles being grafted in). Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

I believe as you...salvation can be lost. Why else would we need to endure, persevere, seek, follow, search...? Only we, ourselves, can lose it. It is ours to gain (as a gift) and ours alone to lose.
.
.

[7trumpets]

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first posting. I'm not sure if this idea is one shared by GodandScience, but I noticed a member stating this about himself. I have always belived that you can lose your salvation if you do not remain in the truth. Look at Heb.10:26,27 and Heb. 6:4-6. Matt.24:13 also speaks of 'enduring to the end'. I know a lot of churches believe this once saved always saved but I just can't see this in light of these verses. There are others but I can't remember where they are (the one where Paul is talking about fleshly Israel and the gentiles being grafted in). Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

If you chase after the Anti-christ at the 6th trumpet, 6th seal, and 6th vial thinking he is "Jesus" instead of waiting for the truth CHRIST at the 7th trumpet. And then expect CHRIST to save you it won't happen.

endure 5278 upomenw hupomeno hoop-om-en'-o
from upo - hupo 5259 and menw - meno 3306; to stay under (behind), i.e. remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:--abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind.

[zoegirl]

JUst wanted to chime in here, I am believe in the perseverance of the saints. Just providing the other argument

Perseverance of the Saints
It follows from what was just said that the people of God WILL persevere to the end and not be lost. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified. No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure.

But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end.

The following seven theses summarize our understanding of this crucial doctrine.

Our faith must endure to the end if we are to be saved.

This means that the ministry of the word is God's instrument in the preservation of faith as well as the begetting of faith. We do not breathe easy after a person has prayed to receive Christ, as though we can be assured from our perspective that they are now beyond the reach of the evil one. There is a fight of faith to be fought. We must endure to the end in faith if we are to be saved.

l Corinthians 15:1,2, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast--unless you believed in vain."

Colossians 1:21-23, "And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel..."

2 Timothy 2:ll,l2, "The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him..."

Mark 13:13, "But he who endures to the end will be saved."

See also Revelation 2:7,l0,ll,l7,25,26; 3:5,ll,l2,2l.

Obedience, evidencing inner renewal from God, is necessary for final salvation.

This is not to say that God demands perfection. It is clear from Philippians 3:l2,l3 and l John 1:8-10 and Matthew 6:l2 that the New Testament does not hold out the demand that we be sinlessly perfect in order to be saved. But the New Testament does demand that we be morally changed and walk in newness of life.

Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Romans 8:l3, "If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Galatians 5:l9-2l, "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not enter the kingdom of God." (See also Ephesians 5:5 and l Corinthians 6:l0.)

l John 2:3-6, "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says, 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." (See also 1 John 3:4-10, 14; 4:20.)

John 8:3l, "Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples.'" (See also Luke 10:28; Matthew 6:14,15; 18:35; Genesis 18:19; 22:16-17; 26:4-5; 2 Timothy 2:19.)

God's elect cannot be lost.

This is why we believe in eternal security--namely, the eternal security of the elect. the implication is that God will so work that those whom he has chosen for eternal salvation will be enabled by him to persevere in faith to the end and fulfill, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the requirements for obedience.

Romans 8:28-30, "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." What is evident from this passage is that those who are effectually called into the hope of salvation will indeed persevere to the end and be glorified.

John 10:26-30, "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (See also Ephesians 1:4-5.)

There is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows that their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.

l John 2:l9, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be made plain that they all are not of us." Similarly, the parable of the four soils as interpreted in Luke 8:9-l4 pictures people who "hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in a time of temptation fall away."

The fact that such a thing is possible is precisely why the ministry of the Word in every local church must contain many admonitions to the church members to persevere in faith and not be entangled in those things which could possibly strangle them and result in their condemnation.

God justifies us on the first genuine act of saving faith, but in doing so he has a view to all subsequent acts of faith contained, as it were, like a seed in that first act.

What we are trying to do here is own up to the teaching of Romans 5:l, for example, that teaches that we are already justified before God. God does not wait to the end of our lives in order to declare us righteous. In fact, we would not be able to have the assurance and freedom in order to live out the radical demands of Christ unless we could be confident that because of our faith we already stand righteous before him.

Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith. The way these two truths fit together is that we are justified through our first act of faith because God sees in it (like he can see the tree in an acorn) the embryo of a life of faith. This is why those who do not lead a life of faith with its inevitable fruit of obedience simply bear witness to the fact that their first act of faith was not genuine.

The textual support for this is that Romans 4:3 cites Genesis 15:6 as the point where Abraham was justified by God. This is a reference to an act of faith early in Abraham's career. Romans 4:l9-22, however, refers to an experience of Abraham many years later (when he was 100 years old, see Genesis 21:5, l2) and says that because of the faith of this experience Abraham was reckoned righteous. In other words, it seems that the faith which justified Abraham is not merely his first act of faith but the faith which gave rise to acts of obedience later in his life. (The same thing could be shown from James 2:21-24 in its reference to a still later act in Abraham's life, namely, the offering of his son, Isaac, in Genesis 22.) The way we put together these crucial threads of biblical truth is by saying that we are indeed justified through our first act of faith but not without reference to all the subsequent acts of faith which give rise to the obedience that God demands. Faith alone is the instrument (not ground or basis) of our justification because God makes it his sole means of uniting us to Christ in whom we “become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

God works to cause his elect to persevere.

We are not left to ourselves and our assurance is very largely rooted in the sovereign love of God to perform that which he has called us to do. l Peter 1:5, "By God's power we are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Jude 24,25, "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

l Thessalonians 5:23-24, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, and he will do it."

Philippians 1:6, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

l Corinthians 1:8-9, "Jesus Christ will sustain you to the end; guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Therefore we should be zealous to make our calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1:10, "Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... rseverance

[Kurieuo]

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first posting. I'm not sure if this idea is one shared by GodandScience, but I noticed a member stating this about himself. I have always belived that you can lose your salvation if you do not remain in the truth. Look at Heb.10:26,27 and Heb. 6:4-6. Matt.24:13 also speaks of 'enduring to the end'. I know a lot of churches believe this once saved always saved but I just can't see this in light of these verses. There are others but I can't remember where they are (the one where Paul is talking about fleshly Israel and the gentiles being grafted in). Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Hi Catherine.

There was a thread where some of us discussed this issue at length: Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

Hopefully that will help you to sort through your own beliefs on this important issue.

[catherine]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I am very worried about my own faith and salvation and very often wonder if I am not one of Jesus's sheep because I try to follow him for so long, get fed up as he seems unreal and then do my own sinful thing and get into a mess. I have always believed in God and I have said the sinner's prayer a few times in the last 25 or so years but because God and Jesus still seem so distant, I find it hard to 'follow' them and do the right things. I have been praying and reading the Bible and Christian apologetics for about a year now and yearn to know God and Jesus and love them I suppose. I feel unsaved and wonder if it's because as Jesus says, not all who knock will be let in. I'm living with someone so I know I need to rectify this and have prayed for forgiveness for getting into the situation in the first place and for help to put things right. I know if I felt loved and saved it would make ALL the difference in my life. I'm going to keep praying and trying and I hope I've grown some roots to stay in the soil this time.

[FFC]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I am very worried about my own faith and salvation and very often wonder if I am not one of Jesus's sheep because I try to follow him for so long, get fed up as he seems unreal and then do my own sinful thing and get into a mess. I have always believed in God and I have said the sinner's prayer a few times in the last 25 or so years but because God and Jesus still seem so distant, I find it hard to 'follow' them and do the right things. I have been praying and reading the Bible and Christian apologetics for about a year now and yearn to know God and Jesus and love them I suppose. I feel unsaved and wonder if it's because as Jesus says, not all who knock will be let in. I'm living with someone so I know I need to rectify this and have prayed for forgiveness for getting into the situation in the first place and for help to put things right. I know if I felt loved and saved it would make ALL the difference in my life. I'm going to keep praying and trying and I hope I've grown some roots to stay in the soil this time.

Hi Catherine,
You obviously have a heart for God or you wouldn't be concerned about the things of God. Only you know in your heart if you have truly believed and put your trust in Christ as your Lord and Savior. I don't know your heart but I feel in my spirit that you have believed and are His child.

You may not feel saved all of the time because, as you honestly admit, there are things in your life that need to be surrendered to God. We all have these areas. God many times uses them to draw us closer to him, which is where we really need to be. Peter wrote that we can get so far into our own thing that we forget we are even saved. The devil capitalizes on this by making us doubt we were ever saved...but the good news is that God is a big and powerful God and fully capable of holding on to what is His.. regardless of how selfish and rebelious we may be. You were bought with a great price, the precious blood of Christ! God will never allow anyone to snatch you out of His hand, as jesus says. Jesus is the good shepherd...what kind of a shepherd would He be if He ever lost one of His sheep...regardless of their behavior! It is God's job to save us and God's job to keep. That does not mean we can do anything we want to do without consequence. We will still be disciplined...just not cast out.

Check out Ephesians 1: 13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to (A)the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were (B)sealed in Him with (C)the Holy Spirit of promise,

14who is (D)given as a pledge of (E)our inheritance, with a view to the (F)redemption of (G)God's own possession, (H)to the praise of His glory.

Catherine, do you see that the Holy Spirit has sealed you? do you think you or anybody else could break that seal? Also see that a pledge has been made with Him.

I don't know about you but it gives me great security to know that my salvation does not depend on what I do or not do, but on my great and faithful God, who is all powerful.

I have many genuine Christian friends that believe otherwise but in light of god's nature I believe what I do.

I hope this helps.

[jenna]

JUst wanted to chime in here, I am believe in the perseverance of the saints. Just providing the other argument

Perseverance of the Saints
It follows from what was just said that the people of God WILL persevere to the end and not be lost. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified. No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure.

But we mean more than this by the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. We mean that the saints will and must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end.

The following seven theses summarize our understanding of this crucial doctrine.

Our faith must endure to the end if we are to be saved.

This means that the ministry of the word is God's instrument in the preservation of faith as well as the begetting of faith. We do not breathe easy after a person has prayed to receive Christ, as though we can be assured from our perspective that they are now beyond the reach of the evil one. There is a fight of faith to be fought. We must endure to the end in faith if we are to be saved.

l Corinthians 15:1,2, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast--unless you believed in vain."

Colossians 1:21-23, "And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel..."

2 Timothy 2:ll,l2, "The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him..."

Mark 13:13, "But he who endures to the end will be saved."

See also Revelation 2:7,l0,ll,l7,25,26; 3:5,ll,l2,2l.

Obedience, evidencing inner renewal from God, is necessary for final salvation.

This is not to say that God demands perfection. It is clear from Philippians 3:l2,l3 and l John 1:8-10 and Matthew 6:l2 that the New Testament does not hold out the demand that we be sinlessly perfect in order to be saved. But the New Testament does demand that we be morally changed and walk in newness of life.

Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Romans 8:l3, "If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Galatians 5:l9-2l, "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not enter the kingdom of God." (See also Ephesians 5:5 and l Corinthians 6:l0.)

l John 2:3-6, "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says, 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." (See also 1 John 3:4-10, 14; 4:20.)

John 8:3l, "Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples.'" (See also Luke 10:28; Matthew 6:14,15; 18:35; Genesis 18:19; 22:16-17; 26:4-5; 2 Timothy 2:19.)

God's elect cannot be lost.

This is why we believe in eternal security--namely, the eternal security of the elect. the implication is that God will so work that those whom he has chosen for eternal salvation will be enabled by him to persevere in faith to the end and fulfill, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the requirements for obedience.

Romans 8:28-30, "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." What is evident from this passage is that those who are effectually called into the hope of salvation will indeed persevere to the end and be glorified.

John 10:26-30, "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (See also Ephesians 1:4-5.)

There is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows that their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.

l John 2:l9, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be made plain that they all are not of us." Similarly, the parable of the four soils as interpreted in Luke 8:9-l4 pictures people who "hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in a time of temptation fall away."

The fact that such a thing is possible is precisely why the ministry of the Word in every local church must contain many admonitions to the church members to persevere in faith and not be entangled in those things which could possibly strangle them and result in their condemnation.

God justifies us on the first genuine act of saving faith, but in doing so he has a view to all subsequent acts of faith contained, as it were, like a seed in that first act.

What we are trying to do here is own up to the teaching of Romans 5:l, for example, that teaches that we are already justified before God. God does not wait to the end of our lives in order to declare us righteous. In fact, we would not be able to have the assurance and freedom in order to live out the radical demands of Christ unless we could be confident that because of our faith we already stand righteous before him.

Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith. The way these two truths fit together is that we are justified through our first act of faith because God sees in it (like he can see the tree in an acorn) the embryo of a life of faith. This is why those who do not lead a life of faith with its inevitable fruit of obedience simply bear witness to the fact that their first act of faith was not genuine.

The textual support for this is that Romans 4:3 cites Genesis 15:6 as the point where Abraham was justified by God. This is a reference to an act of faith early in Abraham's career. Romans 4:l9-22, however, refers to an experience of Abraham many years later (when he was 100 years old, see Genesis 21:5, l2) and says that because of the faith of this experience Abraham was reckoned righteous. In other words, it seems that the faith which justified Abraham is not merely his first act of faith but the faith which gave rise to acts of obedience later in his life. (The same thing could be shown from James 2:21-24 in its reference to a still later act in Abraham's life, namely, the offering of his son, Isaac, in Genesis 22.) The way we put together these crucial threads of biblical truth is by saying that we are indeed justified through our first act of faith but not without reference to all the subsequent acts of faith which give rise to the obedience that God demands. Faith alone is the instrument (not ground or basis) of our justification because God makes it his sole means of uniting us to Christ in whom we “become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

God works to cause his elect to persevere.

We are not left to ourselves and our assurance is very largely rooted in the sovereign love of God to perform that which he has called us to do. l Peter 1:5, "By God's power we are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Jude 24,25, "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

l Thessalonians 5:23-24, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, and he will do it."

Philippians 1:6, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

l Corinthians 1:8-9, "Jesus Christ will sustain you to the end; guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Therefore we should be zealous to make our calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1:10, "Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... rseverance

Very good, Zoe! I agree.

[PastorGuy]

Once you've been born again, truley born again, God will not kick you out of his family cause of your failures. Your Mom and Dad would never kick you out, and God loves you more than your parents love you. Why would God want you to live a life of unkowning of your salvation? All have sinned and fall short of Gods glory. Even as born again christians, we still sin. Salvation is a free gift of God. You need to distinguish the difference of two types of "christians", either professors of christianity or possessors of christianity. Matthew Capter 7 verse 22-23,
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Notice Jesus does not say, "I once knew you but I dont know you anymore" He says he NEVER knew you.
5 reasons from scripture why once saved always saved:

1. Gods Promise
1John 2:25
John 5:24
John 3:16

2. Gods Perseverence
Phillipians 1:6

3. Gods Predestination
Romans 8:28-30

4. Gods Power
1Peter 1
John 10:27-29

5. Your Posistion (In Christ or not)
2Corinthians 5:17

Before being born again we are all born in Adam. In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive.
You could only loose your salvation if Jesus looses his relationship with the Father. Ofcourse that will never happen.

[Daniel]

Hebrews 3:14 says: We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. This verse is, in my opinion, the strongest against eternal security.

As some of you know from some of my other postings, Hebrews 6:4-6 bothers me because of my past, but I still believe that I can be saved because of some passages in other books, most notably John.

[obsolete]

Hebrews 3:14 says: We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. This verse is, in my opinion, the strongest against eternal security.

I beleive the point the author of Hebrews was trying to make was if you hold to your faith and share it with others, instead of just sitting on your blessed assurance, coming back and ruling with Christ during the millenium.

Look at what Paul has to say in Romans 8:38-39. This is probably the strongest confirmation that we are always saved once saved.

3. Gods Predestination
Romans 8:28-30

Be careful with that. Neither you or I know who is predestined to be in the family of Christ. I beleive that there are good works already predestined for us to do, and even then we have a hard time recognizing them at the time.

[B. W.]

...Before being born again we are all born in Adam. In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive. You could only loose your salvation if Jesus looses his relationship with the Father. Of course that will never happen.

Hebrews 6:6 states what you are conveying this way: "...and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

The problem that OSAS has in presenting its case comes from two scriptures:

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?”

The OSAS position is wrongly accused for teaching that it is okay to sin just because you are in. The Cheap Grace argument is tossed in as well during discussions on such subject matter as this. I personally have not yet met one OSAS person who believes Grace is Cheap and that it is okay to sin because you're in. I hope if this topic continues we could forgo these arguments.

Look at what Jesus said: John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me… and again in:

Matthew 13:23, “As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty..."

The soil of the heart is where the good word is sown. What manner of soil are we?
-
-
-

Post Script:

2 Co 13:5 -- "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

What does our life reflect? Good works only? Apathy? Disinterest? Or Christlikeness?

As long as we draw breath we can repent and become what God predestined us to be. The good soil hears the word and produces fruit of a Christ like life in various degrees — in some cases a hundredfold, in another sixty, in another thirty…

What manner of soil are we?
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[Jac3510]

Personally, I think to deny OSAS is to deny the gospel. John 3:16 says whoever believes will not perish but has everlasting life. Those who deny OSAS deny John 3:16. They're preaching "Andy's Gospel." That is, a man has to believe AND HE has to repent/stay in his faith/be baptized/manifest good works/whatever. They're just saying Jesus is mistaken:

"No, Jesus, you are wrong. You didn't get it all in there. It's not whoever believes, because there are some who believe who haven't turned from their sins. It's actually whoever believes AND commits their life to you . . . that's the gospel, Jesus. Get it right!"

God saves by grace or not at all.

[BavarianWheels]

Personally, I think to deny OSAS is to deny the gospel. John 3:16 says whoever believes will not perish but has everlasting life.

I'm not sure...Satan and his angels believe...and yet....

Edit...fixed the slash for the quote...
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