Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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frankbaginski
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by frankbaginski »

zoegirl ,
zoegirl wrote:I think this reveals a lack of trust in God. Could not God have created this variation in the gene in order to ENDURE , even in the midst of this parasite, we would have the flexibility to survive? Can this change in gene frequency not be a reflection of God's planning and design? Why does this example somehow "give nature the power"?
This example is but one of many assumed changes to the species. Evolution if you believe in it has at its core a belief that changes take place one after another and over time the species becomes something else. So if you believe in evolution then the cause can come from God or nature. If from God then why would we drift to some other thing since we were created in HIs image, does this imply that only some people will be in God's image, at some point the logic falls apart. And if nature then why give nature the power to change God's image? The bottom line is, did God give the power of creation to nature? If He did not then accepting evolution over His direct hand would go against scripture.

My trust in God has nothing to do with science or man.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by ARWallace »

Frank:
It is my understanding that natural selection requires a benefit to go along with a change to the species or else the change does not grow in the host population. So calling sickle cell an example of natural selection is by inference calling it a benefit. A defect is suppose to decrease in the host populations where a benefit grows in the population. If I am wrong in my interpretation of theory then let me know.
Well, zoegirl said it better than I could. But let me try to clarify things a little further. Sickle cell - the disease - is not a beneficial condition. As you point out, there are complications that typically lead to an early death in someone carrying 2 copies of the mutant allele. However, because it is codominant (as opposed to total dominance and recessiveness) things are different in the carrier. They have virtually no ill effects associated with the disease. But they produce 50% mutant proteins, and this is enough to be beneficial when faced with infection from the Plasmodium parasite. Without the selective agent, carriers have no advantage over people with 2 copies of the normal gene - but in areas where malaria is endemic, they have a selective advantage. And both are better than having sickle cell disease, whatever the conditions are that exist. So - disease = bad, normal = good, carrier = no benefit to beneficial depending on the conditions. Does this make sense? It is for this reason that the allele frequencies are so high in areas where malaria exists - the carriers are surviving better than they would in populations where they had no selective advantage.
So you have no problem with man's interference with the natural order. Then we can make drugs and try and prolong life even though it may affect the gene pool in unnatural ways. So we should prevent suffering where we can.
Well, in a simple and limited sense, yes.
How about genetic engineered foods, should we continue to make changes to our foods to make some plants more resistant to pest and desease. Should we try and increase the vitamin content of our produce?
Well, I have mixed views on this. In one sense, it is the next logical manifestation of agricultural processes we have been practicing for millenia. On the other hand, I am personally not convinced that we have thought through the ethical implications, and we have not adequately tested the health risks and benefits, nor do we fully understand the consequences of releasing these organisms into the wild. So I think the idea of GM foods is intriguing, but I am not of the opinion that I want one in my backyard just yet. But then again, my opinion is inconsequential; 75% of processed food products on the market today contain some amount of GM food in them. Can you say Pandora's box?
If man made a nanobot that destroyed all malaria parasites would you oppose the release of this device because it would make a natural organism extinct?
No. I'm fine with this. It'll never happen, but it would be nice for humanity if it did.
Should Congress step in because the release of the nanobot would cause a lifeform to go extinct, could the endangered species act be used to save the malaria parasite?
Well, as far as I know, the ESA only applies to critters existing in the US. So I think Congress would be overstepping their authority if they did this. But if your question applies to pest species X that does exist in the US, I'd say (a) they'll never drive a bacterial, insect or protistan pest species to extinction so why worry and (b) isn't this what pest control specialists try to do now with roaches, ants and termites?
I think of nature as made for man and we can do what we want so it benefits us.
Well, I know biblical scripture makes this proclamation. But I think things are a little more complicated than this. It might have been easier in the Garden of Eden when only 2 people lived on earth - but how do we decide what is appropriate and inappropriate use of god's creation? Surely my singular views may differ than those of a Chinese peasant farmer, a CEO of a mining company and a zoologist.

Frank, we are quickly wandering into areas well outside my area of expertise - and I meant no offense in what I wrote. So I am sorry if I upset you. I can explain the biology and I am happy do a little metaphysical navel gazing with you, but I think I am well outside my comfort level when it comes to your religious beliefs. So just let me know when I've written something that offends you and I'll try and sort it out. But I am pretty sure I can't answer questions like "if humans are still evolving, does this mean they are no longer in god's image". There are likely lots of folks here with far more training in theological and scriptural issues who can answer them far more eloquently than I. Does this help?
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by zoegirl »

frankbaginski wrote:zoegirl ,
zoegirl wrote:I think this reveals a lack of trust in God. Could not God have created this variation in the gene in order to ENDURE , even in the midst of this parasite, we would have the flexibility to survive? Can this change in gene frequency not be a reflection of God's planning and design? Why does this example somehow "give nature the power"?
This example is but one of many assumed changes to the species.
NO, this is simply as example of natural selection as seen through changes in gene frequencies. Natural selection, in and of itself, merely operates on existing genes within the population. I think this is where a lot of confusion comes from the definitions invovled. From a purely generation to generation concept, evolution applies directly to examining gene frequency changes. And these gene frequency changes absolutely do no require any new genes to see a shift in the resulting populations. For instance, we can observe beak size changes in finches over several generations in the Galapagos Islands (famous book Beak of the Finch, details the experiments). Beak size frequencies changed in repsonse to the amount of rainfall over several generations. These frequencies fluctuated over time. Large beak size conferred advantages to the birds n some weather conditions, smaller beak size conferred an advantage in other seasonal conditions.

Strinctly speaking natural selection itself does not necessarily lead to evolution (I can provide you with the quote from my grad book Natural Selection in the Wild). Natural selection merely leads to population changes with regard to the gene frequencies. I think the phrase natural selection carries a lot of emotional baggage that many Christians cannot see past. It conveys a philosophy with it that does not have to be conveyed.

(and this, mathematically speaking, btw, is all Jacob did with his spotted sheep in Laban's flock....we simply refer to this as artificial selection or selective breeding. He changed the allele frequencies withn his father-in-law's herd and thus increased the frequency of the spotted sheep allele. And natural selection simply states that certain phenotypes confer more fitness to those organisms in different environments. I see this possibly as one of the natural cycles and rhythms God has established, not unlike weather patterns or plate tectonics).
frank wrote: Evolution if you believe in it has at its core a belief that changes take place one after another and over time the species becomes something else. So if you believe in evolution then the cause can come from God or nature. If from God then why would we drift to some other thing since we were created in HIs image, does this imply that only some people will be in God's image, at some point the logic falls apart.
This is an accurate worry. From a Christian perspective we DO need to avoid this thinking. Theologically speaking, this is where we must, even if we accept evolution as the mechanism, refuse to give way to a Deist position. Genesis clearly upholds God's involvement in the creation and God's unique creation of Adam and Eve. I agree that we must hold that, whatever the mechanism, Mankind represents a unique part of God's creation, insofar as we relfect God's image, and scripturally this would always be true. But progressive creationism leads to this thinking.

frank wrote: And if nature then why give nature the power to change God's image? The bottom line is, did God give the power of creation to nature? If He did not then accepting evolution over His direct hand would go against scripture.
and for me and other progressive creationists, we do not give nature more power than God. I believe my previous posts have established that God remains in control and sustains creation.
frank wrote: My trust in God has nothing to do with science or man.
Good for you, neither is my faith contingent upon scientific discoveries. My faith in a sovereign, omnipotent, righteous God is not changed because we happen to see gene frequencies change.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by ARWallace »

zoegirl:

Well said. Nuff said (by me, at least).

I seem to dig myself deeper and deeper.

So thanks for bringing a well balanced theological perspective to the discussion.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

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ARWalace,

The point I was trying to make with the sickle cell defect was my opinion on the use of the term natural selection/benefit associated with it. I know in some limited sense it does fit the definition of a benefit / natural selection example. But from my personal view the trade off between malaria protection on one hand and sickly offspring does not make a good case for this particular defect. The protection only happens when you have a heterozygous mix and live in an area infested with malaria. However if your offspring inherit both parts of the defect then they will be sickly and die early no matter where they live. If the world was infested with the malaria parasite you could make the case that some would survive with the defect and keep the species going. This may be the best argument for this defect but the world is not like that and does not appear to be heading that direction.
ARWallace wrote:How about genetic engineered foods, should we continue to make changes to our foods to make some plants more resistant to pest and desease. Should we try and increase the vitamin content of our produce?

Well, I have mixed views on this. In one sense, it is the next logical manifestation of agricultural processes we have been practicing for millenia. On the other hand, I am personally not convinced that we have thought through the ethical implications, and we have not adequately tested the health risks and benefits, nor do we fully understand the consequences of releasing these organisms into the wild. So I think the idea of GM foods is intriguing, but I am not of the opinion that I want one in my backyard just yet. But then again, my opinion is inconsequential; 75% of processed food products on the market today contain some amount of GM food in them. Can you say Pandora's box?
I agree, this was done way to fast and I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I am interested why you said we would never be able to make a nanobot to kill off malaria? I share the same opinion.

Polio is the closest we have come to eliminate something world wide by plan.

Actually I have very strong beliefs formed by some very weird things that have happened to me over the last two years. I am actually new to Christ and am trying my best to learn what I can in a short time. So my beliefs may get offended but I have a thick skin. This top down discussion is to get these issues out of the way. It is hard to discuss evolution and not get sidelined with moral issues. It is also easy to get so involved in detail that we miss the forest. I have laid out my view of history and creation so you know from where I speak.

The point I was tryiing to make with evolution and the image of God was to indicate that the full acceptance of evolution comes with some worldview baggage. I was a true believer in main stream science with little room for God and His Word. That I am happy to say has all changed. Now I follow the data in science and do not accept opinions on the data. I am still trying to keep up with advancements in many fields at the same time. I of course am not a master at any of them but know a little about a lot of things. Like did you know that some people out there are trying to make a fusion reactor using the characteristic of light to predict the future. That is just as good as understanding how mRNA encodes to amino acids and a polypeptide chain folds. But that is easy compared to the math required to take echos and reform an image of organs in a human body. Fun stuff and I am only here for a short time(my life). So if you allow me I will pick your brain and I am sure I will learn a bunch. You will have to accept that I will not jump to conclusions without seeing the steps in between.

Again, I am not able to get the data from the PNAS site you referenced a while back. Is there another source?
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by frankbaginski »

Zoegirl,
zoegirl wrote:NO, this is simply as example of natural selection as seen through changes in gene frequencies. Natural selection, in and of itself, merely operates on existing genes within the population.
Now I am confused. I thought evolution was taking a change to DNA (basic change in gene not there before) and spreading it out into a population by natural selection. This occurs over and over until major changes happen.

Is this not evolution?
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by zoegirl »

Frank,

Microevolution: microevolution is a term that loosely refers to observable gene frequency changes that occur over several generations. Natural selection simply referes to differential reproduction and survival of organisms, BUT this does not necessarily include the introduction of new variations of genes. (ie, mutations/chromosomal changes). So Natural selection simply refers to the fitness of phenotypes relative to the environment that lead to differential reproduction and survival. (size of the beak to the seed size, etc). So if the environment changes those organisms that fit the environment will reproduce and/or survive preferentially to those environmental conditions. Technically, natural selection can occur without evolution occurring. You need new genes, either through immigration or mutations. Microevolution can include mutations and genetic drift but it is used with reference to changing gene frequencies over generations.

But sometimes the word evolution is used here interchangeably and to the dteriment of the clarity of the concepts.

Macroevolution is that concept referring to the accumulation of changes over time, *with* natural selection operating over these generations. And these changes, as Al already brought up, would be point mutations, chromosomal mutations, genomic changes, and the horizontal gene transfer (my weakest area....boy I need to read up!!!)

In scientific circles these words are, in their jargon, indistinguishable. There is no difference between the two with regards to evidence and support, although most will agree that the type of evidence changes.

Its these changes upon which macroevolution rests.

Microevolution and certainly natural selection are absolutely observable and testable. Although before Gould's infamous Spandrels paper I think much of the research focused on correlation studies (adaptive storytelling, if I'm remembering right!!! :shock: ). But I am not shocked by these findings nor should we be, I think. Even in the strictest creation models, why in the world would God have created species that couldn't withstand natural fluctuations in weather and geography? Would He not have created them with the genetic flexibility in their populations to withstand these changes? Wouldn't the absence of such flexibility be a poor design with respect to ecology and populations?

The "changes over time" of course lead to controversies, because the evidence switches from observable and repeatable experiments to extrapolation and speculation. THings such as DNA comparisons and fossil comparisons still belong in the realm of circumstantial evidence, powerful circumstantial evidence, but unrepeatable all the same. I do think that there is strong evidence for speciation events, but as to how powerful these events are with respect to large scale changes at the order and family level, I think, remains at the specualtion level . We have yet to examine adn unravel the enormous complexities of gene interactions.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by ARWallace »

Well said, zoegirl. I have but one point of clarification:
Technically, natural selection can occur without evolution occurring. You need new genes, either through immigration or mutations.
Respectfully, I disagree. Evolution is, by definition, changes in allele frequencies in a population over time. If you survey a population of snails to determine the frequency of some gene - say a gene encoding snail shell color, white or brown - and you find that the frequency of that allele is different from one year to the next, evolution has happened (in the strictest sense). Furthermore, population genetics has models that even predicts what allele frequencies should be, and if they deviate from this, the population is out of Hardy-Weinberg evolution, and is therefore evolving with respect to that gene and that population. The snails may not look any different, but the distribution of alleles in that population is inconsistent with the predicted frequencies, and so evolution has occurred. There are 5 conditions that must be met for a population to not be evolving with respect to the allele you are considering; there must be no natural selection, mating must be random, mutation is not occurring at the allele in question, there is no gene flow (immigration or emigration) and genetic drift must not be occurring. So if there is natural selection occurring, there will always - by definition - be evolution occurring. See this for a better explanation.

Now, natural selection can only operate on existing variation. Without new genetic variation being produced, evolution would eventually stop. And as you point out, the source of new genetic variation is mutation - whether is be gross manipulation of chromosomes, new genes being introduced from outside sources (viz. horizontal gene transfer) or simply point mutations (such the one in question leading to sickle cell).

Hope this helps.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by zoegirl »

Respectfully I disagree. :ebiggrin: BUt I won't quibble with semantics,

And mainly this is semantics. I think there IS a problem with clarifying the concepts. You can find 5 different books and find different definitions. That was one of the big topics in one of my classes, the difficulty in clarifying terms and using them correctly.

The grad book I have separates natural selection from evolution

"“Natural selection does not necessarily give rise to evolution” Natural selection in the wild pg. 5

“Natural selection only affects changes in the frequency of the variations once they appear; it cannot directly address the reasons for the existence of the variants”
Natural selection in the wild pg 241

Very familiar with the Hardy-Weinbergy theorem....infact we did this yesterday in class...
AL wrote:Now, natural selection can only operate on existing variation.
my point exactly....and some books consider this to be the same and others don't.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

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Frank:
But from my personal view the trade off between malaria protection on one hand and sickly offspring does not make a good case for this particular defect. The protection only happens when you have a heterozygous mix and live in an area infested with malaria. However if your offspring inherit both parts of the defect then they will be sickly and die early no matter where they live.
Well, I am not trying to challenge your personal view. I agree that sickle cell disease is just that - a disease. But I can not personally think of another explanation for why the frequency of this allele is so high in populations where malaria is present, and low where malaria is absent. And given that we know being a carrier confers some benefit in resistance to the disease, it seems the most likely explanation is that in these areas, the benefit of being a carrier outweighs the the costs (as you point out, cost could mean there is a greater chance 2 carriers will produce offspring with sickle cell disease given that the allele frequency is higher in this population). So this may be a limitation of my own imagination, and it may be an argument from personal incredulity; but it seems that (to me) the only explanation that fits the evidence is that carriers of sickle cell disease - who themselves suffer no ill effects of the disease - are favored over both sickle cell anemics and normal individuals in these populations. And the frequency of the allele has gone up as a result.
I am interested why you said we would never be able to make a nanobot to kill off malaria? I share the same opinion.
Well, mainly because I believe evolution is a rather tough nut to crack. Quite simply, imposing strong selective forces on populations of critters that breed quickly and prolifically will only cause their numbers to drop in the short term and favor individuals with resistance to the selective agent. We've seen it with antibiotics. We've seen it with pesticide resistance in bugs. Heck, even the termite guys have to change their products every few years. Now, it is quite another story with big, slowly reproducing, long lived species. We have a rather good track record of eliminating big, lumbering, tasty sacks of steak if we really want to. But bacteria, bugs and protists? The best we can hope to accomplish is the reduce their numbers temporarily and find a cure for the diseases they cause. In my opinion.
Polio is the closest we have come to eliminate something world wide by plan.
Well, I'd say our best example is smallpox. But that is because the smallpox virus has some rather unique characteristics that made it possible to eradicate. You'll never get rid of the flu. Or AIDS. Or yellow fever. Or any list of hemorrhagic fevers that are the result of insect bites or mouse droppings.
It is hard to discuss evolution and not get sidelined with moral issues. It is also easy to get so involved in detail that we miss the forest. I have laid out my view of history and creation so you know from where I speak.
Fair enough. Just know it is not my intention to criticize or even jeopardize anyone's personal beliefs on this board. I've been on enough boards where acrimony was the prevailing way to get your point across and respect for one's beliefs was fairly limited.
Again, I am not able to get the data from the PNAS site you referenced a while back. Is there another source?
Remind me what the link was for...? Senescence.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

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ZG:
Natural selection does not necessarily give rise to evolution
Well, it may be semantics. Not being argumentative, it's just this notion is a little different than the one I have learned. But who am I to question John Endler? What is the context for this quote? Does he qualify this statement somehow? I guess I am a purest or literalist in the sense that I believe any change in allele frequencies is evolution. And I think this is rather important since many people believe microevolution to be true - macro...not so much. So having an established definition of microevolution would be rather important. H-W is a pretty powerful tool in determining whether evolution is happening, and sort of establishes natural selection as one of the 5 agents driving evolution - and definitely requires allele frequency changes as the metric of evolutionary change.

In your second quote, it looks like all Endler is saying is that natural selection will act on new genetic variations, but does not account for the existence or origins of such variation. It doesn't look like he is saying that natural selection is not a causative agent in evolution.

Just my thinking...mumbled such as it is at this early hour.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by zoegirl »

ARWallace wrote:ZG:
Natural selection does not necessarily give rise to evolution
Well, it may be semantics. Not being argumentative, it's just this notion is a little different than the one I have learned. But who am I to question John Endler? What is the context for this quote? Does he qualify this statement somehow?
Oy, have to dig it up....those are some quotes I have in a powerpoint that I have references. I think the context is merely one of defining the concept of selection. He uses a Venn diagram to show the distinctions. In it he brings up that natural selection is PART of evolution but can be stand on its on.
Al wrote: I guess I am a purest or literalist in the sense that I believe any change in allele frequencies is evolution. And I think this is rather important since many people believe microevolution to be true - macro...not so much. So having an established definition of microevolution would be rather important. H-W is a pretty powerful tool in determining whether evolution is happening, and sort of establishes natural selection as one of the 5 agents driving evolution - and definitely requires allele frequency changes as the metric of evolutionary change.
I have absolutely no problem in the H-W theorem. I think it is vastly logical and has well-applied examples. (we did a lab using the H-W equation with cards and the PTC paper...lots of fun :D ) I am still a skeptic with regards to that leap from observable tests of mutations to "over time". Speciation is great, but does it account for the events in the past. I think this phrase "over time" tends to be easily used and, with regards to much of *historical* evolution, still in the realm of speculation. But I do not dismiss them because of any theological or philosophical application. But, we have covered my views 8) already.
Al wrote: In your second quote, it looks like all Endler is saying is that natural selection will act on new genetic variations, but does not account for the existence or origins of such variation. It doesn't look like he is saying that natural selection is not a causative agent in evolution.
But I believe this was in regards to clarifying what selection does and his point (going on memory here, so gladly admit to the possiblity of error) regarded clearly defining the role. Natural selection, unless there were new variations, would only bring about a pendulum effect in the genotype frequencies (for example, I htink we see that with the finches and the beak size, they gene frequency vacillated back and forth over the years with high rainfall and low rainfall) or a higher frequncy in one of the genotypes, but it wouldn't be responsible for advancing any new genotype. As you said, it would lead to no evolution. Endler's point (again, memory) was that natural selection, in the absence of new varations, can only bring about vacilaltions in the existing population but there would be no new variations.
Al wrote: Just my thinking...mumbled such as it is at this early hour.
Well, you are right in that the vast majority do use the terms interchangeably and regard them as equal. It's good to simply clarify terms whenever anybody is discussing these concepts.
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by ARWallace »

I have absolutely no problem in the H-W theorem. I think it is vastly logical and has well-applied examples. (we did a lab using the H-W equation with cards and the PTC paper...lots of fun :D )
Yes - subjecting students to foul tasting paper is loads of fun, I agree. I also agree about H-W - it is an empirically verifiable and eminently powerful explanatory model in population genetics. I can see no reason to expect its central tenets will be falsified. And as such, it is a powerful heuristic tool for determining whether evolution is occurring at a locus at a given point in time. And I was surprised how many alleles conform to H-W.
Speciation is great, but does it account for the events in the past.
Well, I think this is where phylogenetics comes in. Electrophoresis on alleles in a snail population will allow you to observe evolution over short periods of time. But the question you, and many people raise is "will lots of this little genetic change actually result in speciation"? Sequencing genes in a bunch of allegedly closely related species and plugging them into algorithms that elucidate patterns in ancestor-descendant relationships suggests that this is, indeed, the case. It works for species that have shared very recent common ancestry (e.g. tracing patterns of change in strains of the HIV virus), and it seems to work in species that have shared rather distant common ancestry. Granted, it is a field not without its limits, and I can see how someone might feel that an intelligent agent might have designed such patterns for us to elucidate. But speaking personally, I don't have any special knowledge, nor can I envision any test that could determine when natural phenomena leading to differences in DNA and ultimately new species ends, and where an intelligently designed set of patterns begins. But I am always willing to admit the limits of my own intelligence. And man, have I got limits!
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by ARWallace »

Just got this:

"But, we have covered my views 8) already."

Nudge, nudge?
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Re: Is ID non-scientific because it has relgious implications?

Post by frankbaginski »

ARWalace, Zoegirl,

I hope you don't mind but your posts bring a smile to my face. Not being in the field I use the term evolution as a catch all like most people. I do have a basic understanding of the main parts, microevolution, macroevolution, and natural selection. But even these words have a range of meaning based on what you know and who you learned from. So if I may ask that I use evolution and you guys just fill in the word most appropriate in your view. If not then maybe I could use DEC for Darwinian evolutionary changes as a bucket word. For all I know someone has already done this. If so tell me what term I should use as a catch all.

ARW

The sickle cell defect in the strickest sense does make a case for macroevolution with some assumed caveats. Since the defect does have a demonstratable downside, then if you start adding up similar types of defects the host would eventually die out by the weight of the defects downside effects. I have no proof of this but I feel that we are seeing this already in the human population. Do you know of anyone who has done a study of human genetic defects to see if the problem is getting bigger, smaller, or stable? This study would give us some insight into the sickle cell defect.
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