God + love + hell = ?

[jenna]

BMW, I am losing you here. Are you saying that when the spirit of Samuel came up, it was actually a demon? This is what it sounds as if you are saying. The spirit of Samuel was from God and was not a demon. This was truly Samuel, whose spirit God brought back to tell Saul he would die.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You really are not good at giving clear answers, BavarianWheels: "ditto" will not do for me.

Tell me in your own words why the spirit conjured that came up out of the ground in 1 Sa 28:13-16 is a problem for you. Elaborate.

FL

It needs no elaboration. It's so simple the logic almost slaps one in the face. It is you that would need to explain how a spirit from God which is in heaven rises from the ground by the conjuring of a forbidden practice of divining or spiritist.

I will get to this as soon as you give me biblical evidence to support your opinion that the spirit conjured was from Hell. While your at it, don't forget to answer my other questions which I asked you:

-So you think God cannot make a spirit come up out of the ground?
-How do you explain that Samuel's spirit essentially said "I told you so" to King Saul;then Samuel's spirit went on to correctly prophesy his death, the deaths of his sons, and the defeat of Israel at the hands of the Phillistines, all of this to happen on the very next day?
-Why would a spirit from the Father of Lies prophesy Truth? (What's in it for him?) Give biblical evidence to back your point.

Thanks.

FL

[BavarianWheels]

I will get to this as soon as you give me biblical evidence to support your opinion that the spirit conjured was from Hell. While your at it, don't forget to answer my other questions which I asked you:

Did I say the spirit came from hell? I hope not, because I don't believe that to be true. I said it came from where the scripture says it came...the ground.

-So you think God cannot make a spirit come up out of the ground?

He can...better question is would He, especially since it is you that says Samuel was in heaven...not to mention the practice of mediums and spiritists was forbidden. Of course God uses Satan and his legions to relay His messages for Him when the person the message is intended for has already inquired of the Lord...

-How do you explain that Samuel's spirit essentially said "I told you so" to King Saul;

Isn't Satan present where God is working and has knowledge of the happenings?

then Samuel's spirit went on to correctly prophesy his death, the deaths of his sons, and the defeat of Israel at the hands of the Phillistines, all of this to happen on the very next day?

Saul had already tried to get guidance from the Lord...and was ignored. Then what does Saul do? He goes to a spiritist...directly against God (see text below). Then on top of that swears by the Lords name she will not be punished. Also notice, instead of trying to conjur up God, he conjurs up whom he wants. This was neither directed, nor condoned by God. If Saul asked for Samuel, why would he ask what he looks like? He knows he's doing wrong and is "checking" on his work. The spirit also asks why he consults him if the Lord has become his (Saul's) enemy. Notice also the spirit predicts his sons deaths, but says they will be with him (the spirit) even though he's pronouncing punishment for their wickedness...where does the spirit come from?

Later we find that it was an Amalekite that finally kills Saul...ironic isn't it? (2 Samuel 1:1-10) The very people Saul was to destroy in total.

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in* the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

-Why would a spirit from the Father of Lies prophesy Truth? (What's in it for him?) Give biblical evidence to back your point. What's in it for him?

Saul's death and his sons with him. Victory that his disobedience to God has resulted in death. Biblical evidence for Satan happy about a death?
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Did I say the spirit came from hell? I hope not, because I don't believe that to be true. I said it came from where the scripture says it came...the ground.

-So I may assume that you do not know wether the spirit was from Hell or Heaven?

He can...better question is would He, especially since it is you that says Samuel was in heaven.

-Do you question where Samuel's spirit rests? Let God tell you: see Ps 99:6-7, better yet, Hebrews 11:32-33:

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell you about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice,and gained what was promised...

I could give you many more examples from the Word, but would you believe?

Of course God uses Satan and his legions to relay His messages for Him when the person the message is intended for has already inquired of the Lord...

No. God uses (good) angels as messengers.

Isn't Satan present where God is working and has knowledge of the happenings?

Granted, a spirit from Hell could have said "I told you so" - Satan has knowledge of the past - but that spirit would not have known the next day's events since they had not been prophecied about by a living prophet. Satan has no knowledge of day-to-day events in the future.

Saul had already tried to get guidance from the Lord...and was ignored. Then what does Saul do? He goes to a spiritist...directly against God (see text below). Then on top of that swears by the Lords name she will not be punished. Also notice, instead of trying to conjur up God, he conjurs up whom he wants. This was neither directed, nor condoned by God. If Saul asked for Samuel, why would he ask what he looks like? He knows he's doing wrong and is "checking" on his work. The spirit also asks why he consults him if the Lord has become his (Saul's) enemy. Notice also the spirit predicts his sons deaths, but says they will be with him (the spirit) even though he's pronouncing punishment for their wickedness...where does the spirit come from?

When the witch saw the spirit, she cried out in a scream. Odd. She was probably not used to having her conjuring work so well! She told Saul that the spirit was wearing characteristic robe ("an old man wearing a robe") and Saul prostrated himself before the apparition, the text does not say wether Saul could see it or not but suggests he could not. Saul could hear it though, and asked his questions; the apparition which the Bible identifies as Samuel answers and prophesies the events of the following day.

All of this implies an authentic appearance of the dead Samuel, not brought about by witchcraft but allowed by God as a way to bring a final message to a king who insisted on going his own way.

FL

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

(Continued from above)

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:-Why would a spirit from the Father of Lies prophesy Truth? (What's in it for him?) Give biblical evidence to back your point. What's in it for him?Saul's death and his sons with him. Victory that his disobedience to God has resulted in death. Biblical evidence for Satan happy about a death?

You fell into a trap here: it is impossible for Satan to prophecy Truth. It is impossible for Satan to know what will happen tomorrow.

+ + + + +

I know the account of 1 Samuel 28:13-19 to be the will of God.

My original point was to show that people retain their individuality and consciousness in the afterlife, be it in Heaven or Hell. In contrast, many well-meaning Christians think we "go to sleep" at death, only to be brought back for judgement, then sent off to Hell or Heaven or elsewhere or New Jerusalem...

FL

[BavarianWheels]

You fell into a trap here: it is impossible for Satan to prophecy Truth. It is impossible for Satan to know what will happen tomorrow.

Following in the footsteps of the Father of Traps?

REALLY...then why would Satan tempt at all not knowing the future? Satan didn't know Adam and Eve would die partaking of the TofL? In fact, Satan told some truth about them being like God in that they WOULD know good and evil.

I beg to differ here greatly. Satan is probably THE most informed/educated/knowledgeable individual (apart from the Trinity) on God and His Word. Therefore knowing and able to manipulate the future and/or people at God's will...or when God allows.

I know the account of 1 Samuel 28:13-19 to be the will of God.

Nothing happens apart from God's Will.

My original point was to show that people retain their individuality and consciousness in the afterlife be it in Heaven or Hell.

So wouldn't Lazarus have lots to say about either?

In contrast, many well-meaning Christians think we "go to sleep" at death, only to be brought back for judgement, then sent off to Hell or Heaven or elsewhere or New Jerusalem...

FL

Sleep being a metaphor...not literal. If this is wrong...what is the point of Christ raising the dead if not for this specific purpose...as detailed in the scriptures. I hope I need not quote any for this basic of all beliefs. Even Christ Himself said Lazarus was sleeping...or did he lie? (see John 11:1-17)
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[FFC]

John 11:14
So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".

Uh oh, back to the drawing board.

[BavarianWheels]

John 11:14
So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".

Uh oh, back to the drawing board.

The "So" points back to something...I wonder what that is?

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,...

It seems you, like the disciples, are confused.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

BavarianWheels,

You are now way off the topic I originally brought up which was individual consciousness after death. I only explained the witch episode in 1 Samuel because you did not understand it and because it was a way for you to see that Samuel did retain his personality and some form of body after death. I also provided you with other excepts from the Bible that back my point.

Do you know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun? A rifle shoots one bullet at a target; a shotgun blasts a bunch of pellets that fan out towards a target. Try to be a bit more like a rifle in your debating: you'll kill bigger game.

FL

[BavarianWheels]

BavarianWheels,

You are now way off the topic I originally brought up which was individual consciousness after death. I only explained the witch episode in 1 Samuel because you did not understand it and because it was a way for you to see that Samuel did retain his personality and some form of body after death. I also provided you with other excepts from the Bible that back my point.

Do you know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun? A rifle shoots one bullet at a target; a shotgun blasts a bunch of pellets that fan out towards a target. Try to be a bit more like a rifle in your debating: you'll kill bigger game.

FL

Well...if you understand both, a shot-gun does more damage at close range. A shot-gun need not be pointed exactly at the target to hit the target. I wouldn't hesitate to call myself a "shot-gun" in Christian debate as I don't claim to have every answer to every question in debate here on these forums...of course this is all besides the point. Thank you for you kind words of encouragement, however my plan is not to kill anyone or anything.

Let me show you how we got here...

My original point was to show that people retain their individuality and consciousness in the afterlife be it in Heaven or Hell.

So wouldn't Lazarus have lots to say about either?

In contrast, many well-meaning Christians think we "go to sleep" at death, only to be brought back for judgement, then sent off to Hell or Heaven or elsewhere or New Jerusalem...

FL

Sleep being a metaphor...not literal. If this is wrong...what is the point of Christ raising the dead if not for this specific purpose...as detailed in the scriptures. I hope I need not quote any for this basic of all beliefs. Even Christ Himself said Lazarus was sleeping...or did he lie? (see John 11:1-17)

Isn't it you that states your original point to which I asked a question?
To which you smugly replied,

John 11:14
So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".

Uh oh, back to the drawing board.

...which hardly substanciates your original point/position.

It seems you are now avoiding MY point in reply to your whole point.

So again. In direct question to your 'whole' point...wouldn't Lazarus have much to say about either heaven or hell?? Please make your answer in light of Christ's words from John 11:11-14 which deal exactly with the situation.
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[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:John 11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Uh oh, back to the drawing board.

I didn't write that reply. It was written by FFC, if you scroll up you'll see. The tone isn't my style... I don't know how you managed to quote it under my moniker.

If FFC"s "smug" - as you put it - remark lead you to be negative to all I wrote, so be it. It served to show your sensitivity to someone whom you perceive to be conceited.

FL

[Cross.eyed]

Thanks kurieuo for the web link to the Craig/Bradley debate. Craig puts it in a logical order that I couldn't have gotten to.
I'm always looking for a more effective argument when ask about a loving GOD versus hell.

Roger

[BavarianWheels]

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:John 11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Uh oh, back to the drawing board.

I didn't write that reply. It was written by FFC, if you scroll up you'll see. The tone isn't my style... I don't know how you managed to quote it under my moniker.

If FFC"s "smug" - as you put it - remark lead you to be negative to all I wrote, so be it. It served to show your sensitivity to someone whom you perceive to be conceited.

FL

Whoa...I don't know how I blew that one. My apologies to you.

I'm not "negative" towards you, I'll admit I was a bit miffed at the comment regardless of who it came from, however I mistakenly attributed it to you.

My question still stands which I believe remains within the topic point atm.
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[FFC]

Smug? who me? It was just me and my pea shooter.

[B. W.]

...So again. In direct question to your 'whole' point...wouldn't Lazarus have much to say about either heaven or hell?? Please make your answer in light of Christ's words from John 11:11-14 which deal exactly with the situation.

Luke 16:30-31, "And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

---Would anyone have of listened?---

Eze 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."

---Pharaoh is in the pit as well as others and they see---

Eze 32:2, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword." ESV-

---Those that go into the pit hear!---

Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!"RSV

--The shades - the departed lost souls speak...

Isaiah 14:15, "But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit..." - [Sheol and and pit describe the same domain]

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement is consciousness---

Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS

Proverbs 15:24, "The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath."

Ecclesiastes 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

Isaiah 5:14-16, "Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her. 15 Man is humbled, and each one is brought low, and the eyes of the haughty are brought low. 16 But the LORD of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness. "

Matthew 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Matthew 25:41,46, "...Then I'll say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 3:29, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin…”

---There is conscious existence in hell for the lost, if not, then it would not be hell.---

2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”

Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

---Hades in torments, seeing, speaking, reasoning, cognition fully functioning---

Psalms 88:4-5, “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength, 5 like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand.”

---Those lost who are in hell are cut off from God forever---

Psalms 88:10-12(88:11), “Wilt Thou work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give Thee thanks? Selah 11 (88:12) Shall Thy mercy be declared in the grave? or Thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 (88:13) Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? JPS

Now before you rejoice and claim that Psalms 88:10-12 teaches that the dead are not conscious, or confirms soul sleeping, or that this proves annihilationism or maybe even provides evidence of universal salvation - please note what the scriptures above reveal: The dead, hear, speak, tremble [move, feel], they go down to the netherworld alive, they suffer eternal punishment — not temporal, they are cut off from God forever banished, and that there is an eternal sin which negates all thoughts of universal salvation.

Therefore Palms 88:5-12 as well as Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not support that the dead are not conscious but rather something else: God will not work any wonder of salvation for those died that rejected God's salvation through Christ. These lost will not arise and give God thanks. They will not admit to God's mercy, faithfulness in the grave for not annihilating them. They will never know God's wonders and the glories of his righteousness in the fiery dark of hell - best forgotten but not left unseen.

We all know we will die one day, but those that forget the Lord know not a thing about God's faithfulness, mercy, righteousness, and they have no more rewards only what they have sown to reap forever, where all memory and experience of their deeds will never again happen and thus forgotten. Therefore the word destruction and destroy when referring to hell's just recompense in the bible reveals a state of endless ruin, eternal desolation, a never ending life without God — not non-being.

The dead [rejecters of God's salvation], hear, speak, tremble [move, feel, whirl, etc], they go down to the netherworld alive, they suffer eternal punishment [not temporal], they are cut off from God forever banished, where eternal sin endlessly negates any hope of universal salvation.

Palms 88:5-12 as well as Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not support that the dead are not conscious but rather something else. I pray that you see before it is too late. Since Jesus warned us about Hell's eternity, I would be a fool not to warn you of this also.

Truly…

Psalms 9:17, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” KJV

All Bible quotes not marked are from ESV
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