controversial scriptures

[jenna]

1) Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
2) Ezekiel 18:4, 20. "The soul that sins, it shall DIE".

Jen,
Does this WAGE of sin, being DEATH, refer to the physical DEATH or our spiritual DEATH (which I believe may also be called the "second DEATH" in revelation) ?

Both. Men do not HAVE souls, man IS a soul. Our body is merely "clothing."

[Pierac]

B.W. wrote:

Since as you claim Mark 9:43-48 is not literal then why should we believe what you say is literal about Gehenna?

What are you talking about? Of course it's not literal. You are the one saying Mark 9:43-48 is a literal eternal hell, certainly not me! Your verses say nothing about gehenna, they falsely teach a man made hell which does not exist as eternal fire and worms not dying


B.W. Wrote and bolded certain section as Literal!

Mark 9:42-46 "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 So if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life injured than to have two hands and go to hell, to the fire that cannot be put out. 44 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 46 In that place, worms never die, and the fire is never put out." ISV

Yes. B.W. you were implying that there is “the fire that cannot be put out” and a “that place, worms never die.”

You sure seem to take it literally! As you so focused of the aspects of the tradition of men, reading eternal torment into this verse! Yet, you still have your hands, feet and eyes, I hope of course! So you only accepted the literal meaning only in fire and worms but not cutting off flesh! Luck for you, but not the rest of humanity you think in fire and "fire proof" worms.

So only, You, know what is literal and what is not? How can we listen to you since you were wrong about the Church Fathers?

I believe those who read our post will know who's wrong about the church fathers. Don't be so sure of yourself.

You are defending absolute extinction — which would make God's mercy not everlasting to everlasting as His word says it is but again to your doctrine, everlasting is not everlasting and therefore God cannot be either. Well, go ahead and teach against the deepness of God's mercy…

No my friend, I do not defend extinction. You confuse me with Jenna.

God did not send his Son into the world to destroy it, but to reconcile all things in heaven and on earth through the blood of the cross.Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Tell me B.W. what in heaven needs reconciled by the blood of his cross? I really would like an answer on this one?


Let me review one of my old post here…
Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.

Thomas Talbott in the book “Universal Salvation? The Current Debate”. States,

“the whole thrust of Jesus's teaching, moreover, pointed in the same direction. He categorically rejected the prevailing understanding of the retaliatory justice.
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

the prevailing understanding of limited forgiveness…

Mat 18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

and the prevailing understanding of a limited obligation to love

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why, according to Jesus, are we to love our enemies as well as our friends? So that we might be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect Why should there be no limit to our forgiveness? So that we might be perfect as even our Father in heaven is perfect. Why must we forsake retaliation of a retributivist kind? So that we might be perfect for even as our Father in heaven is perfect. As I see it, then, we have here overwhelming evidence that God, as Jesus understood him, never ceases to love his own enemies, never ceases forgiving them, and sees no ultimate justice in punishment of the retributivist kind. The idea that we are expected to be better than God is unthinkable.

Our mightiest telescopes through which our astronomers gaze cannot begin to pierce the length and breadth of this universe which God in His omnipotent power has created. We cannot in our finite minds begin to comprehend the power of Him who can create the Milky Way or even the solar system we know. And yet, as limitless and infinite as the power and omnipotence of God is, even so limitless is HIS LOVE. It is without measure and without boundary. It is absolutely illimitable.

When we speak of God's attributes we may say, and many do, that God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal and unchangeable in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. This is a very beautiful definition; but it largely defines only God's attributes, whereas the text, "God is Love," tells us WHAT HE HIMSELF IS. This text reveals His nature, His state of being. For instance, in speaking of justice, we know that God has justice as one of His attributes, but He is not justice; God IS love. This fact gives us a revelation of GOD'S VERY NATURE.

This brings us face to face with the great central message of the Bible which is a message of love. We need to remember that the Personage about whom the Bible is written IS LOVE - a Being whose very nature is love. In our day that is something that can become distorted because we live in an age of distortion; we live in a time when even the truth of anything, whether it be the nature of God or the nature of human sexuality, is distorted and perverted. They have used the old shopworn cliché "God is love, God is love, God is love" until love has become such a one-sided, mushy, gooey, syrup-sweet thing, and they have not told about the dark side of the love of God: "Whom the Lord loves, He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives" (Heb. 12:6). They have watered love down, making it sickening rather than stimulating… The balance in the love of God was summed up by the sweet singer of Israel thus: "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Ps. 85:10).

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son ... beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and HIS LOVE IS PERFECTED IN US" (I Jn. 4:10-12). Can words make it plainer that God's love in Christ is given to pass into us and to become our life? We shall then love God as He loved us. We shall then love one another as Christ has loved us. And we shall then love the world with the same love which God in Christ revealed upon the cross!

Some who read these lines may be bruised and battered by life. Some of you may be lonely and cast down. Some of you may feel all alone. If you are a father, or a mother, then you know something of the love of a parent for a child. You know something of a love that reaches out after a child, even in its waywardness; a love that reaches out to a child that has been hurt; a love that reaches after a child who has deserted its family; a love that NEVER LETS GO. All of that tender compassion of a parent's love is but the faintest shadow of the infinite love of God which knows no measure; a love that, indeed, could never let us or any man go. When we become children of God, we enter into that parental love of God. How sad that so many who call themselves children of God are, as the apostle warned, "without natural affection," stubbornly willing to consign the vast majority of God's wayward sons to everlasting damnation, yea, demanding, as judge and jury, that they be damned, rather than loving them infinitely and omnipotently as God loves them!

B.W. God created billions upon billions of galaxies which contain trillions of stars, which span Hundreds of billons of LIGHT YEARS, yet he sustains them. Do you not think he could save a few billion of his children? He did not put us here to choose Him but to….

CLV Ecc 1:13 “It is an experience of evil Elohin [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.”

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

How many will receive mercy in Rom 11:32 B.W.?

B.W. your whole life is a life of suffering so that you can experience evil! Tell me of any Angel in scripture that has come close to experiencing evil like you. They never die and never suffer, yet you do! You are being made into a new creation in Christ. Just what did Christ tell you!

John 13:16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

John 15:20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

If they persecute you then what do you experience? Evil my friend, yet what does Jesus say? Annihilate them? Burn them forever? NO!

Mat 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, WHY?

Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I see no need to cut off body parts B.W. because I know the plan of God! It's in the blood of His son which will reconcile all things in heaven and on earth through the cross. (Col 1:20).

In Christ,
Paul

[FFC]

1) Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
2) Ezekiel 18:4, 20. "The soul that sins, it shall DIE".

Jen,
Does this WAGE of sin, being DEATH, refer to the physical DEATH or our spiritual DEATH (which I believe may also be called the "second DEATH" in revelation) ?

Both. Men do not HAVE souls, man IS a soul. Our body is merely "clothing."

I agree.

[B. W.]

I have always looked at Mark 9:43-48 as a statement of who sins. It is not your hand, or your foot, and not your eyes. It is the spirit in each of us. So to me the verses are saying to cast out that part of your spirit that allows you to sin. Then replace that with the spirit of God which will never make you sin. The word "if" is critical to the verses. It makes you question the statement and seek just who does the sin.

B.W.

You quote Job which is rare. I think the book of Job is way more than any commentary I have ever read about it. I placed in the scripture section a post on a second level of communication in the friends speaking. If you could read it and comment on it I would greatly appreciate it.

Yes, many times I have 'cut my two legs off' running towards sin and 'cut off' my hands form handling sin: Very effective scriptures to quote when we face temptation. When we cut off - stop ourselves in our tracks - we can fight sin effectively. Yes, I have my legs and arms still; however, when sin knocks for all of us, let us learn that we must 'cut off' the need to answer the door.

I'll look into your comment on Job but I cannot find it - what thread and section Title is and on as well as what page?
-
-
-

[B. W.]

B.W. wrote:

Since as you claim Mark 9:43-48 is not literal then why should we believe what you say is literal about Gehenna?

What are you talking about? Of course it's not literal. You are the one saying Mark 9:43-48 is a literal eternal hell, certainly not me! Your verses say nothing about gehenna, they falsely teach a man made hell which does not exist as eternal fire and worms not dying

Well Pierac, that comment sure takes the cake!!!

It is Jesus that speaks of Hell as everlasting and real. Please note that it is you that has to change the clear meaning of text — not me.

Therefore, Please post every scripture where Jesus specifically states that Hell is not everlasting or real...

The doctrine of Eternal recompense was spoken by the mouth of God in Genesis 2:17 and revealed all through the snapshots of the subject in the Old Testament and revealed more clearly by Christ in the New Testament .

Next, Universal Salvation is based on the traditions of men, not the words of Christ.

John 5:24, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people.”

Revelations 20:10-15, “…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever…. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Revelations 20:10-15 shoots down Universalism plain and simple — no need to add to God's word here to teach it does not mean what it says.

As for Gehenna

Jesus used a place that people could relate too in order to translate into words people could understand that the horrors of Hell are eternal. You attempt to place 'Gehenna' in a literal sense as just only a geographic location that now, today, a peaceful green valley. That is literally what you are saying.

Lastly:

This is quite the statement to make if Jesus was really preaching Universalism 'or Annihilationism' in Matthew 18:8-9: “And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the [Gehenna] hell of fire.”

Jesus was definitely warning us of something everlasting and using a burning waste dump as an illustration of eternal fire of hell. You can argue that we should not heed what Jesus says as you cannot take it literally because no one would cut off an arm or leg to stop sinning but you miss Jesus' point: better to go to heaven denying the pleasures of sin than to enjoy them and be lost forever in an eternal trash dump.

Albert Barnes sums it better than I can:

Mat 18:8-9 -
If thy hand ... - See the notes at Mat_5:29-30. The sense in all these instances is the same. Worldly attachments, friendships, and employments of any kind, that cannot be pursued without leading us into sin, be they ever so dear to us, must be abandoned, or the soul will be lost.

It is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed ... - It is not meant, by this, that when the body shall be raised it will be maimed and disfigured in this manner. It will be perfect. See 1Co_15:42-44. But these things are said for the purpose of carrying out or making complete the figure or the representation of cutting off the hands, etc. The meaning is, it is better to go to heaven without enjoying the things that caused us to sin, than to enjoy them here and then be lost.
Halt - Lame.

Maimed - With a loss of limbs.
Into hell fire - It is implied, in all this, that if their sins, however dear to them, were not abandoned, the soul must go into everlasting fire. This is conclusive proof that the sufferings of the wicked will be eternal. See the notes at Mar_9:44, Mar_9:46, Mar_9:48.

Note: Bible quotes from ESV
-
-
-

[frankbaginski]

B.W.,

The section - The Bible and Scripture - the post - The Book of Job - Openning page

I think we are to take the scripture very seriously. That means we look at any verse and see if it should be taken quite literal first. Then compare it with the rest of scripture and make sure it fits. If it does not then we ahve to look further. I am writing up a list of rhetorical devices I found in a Bible code book. I will post it when I am done in the scripture section. There are over 200 devices in the list. I think the Bible is written for the common man and must pass the common man test. I have heard some total nonsense concerning scripture and think that Satan must be having his fun, one day that fun will stop.

In my commentary on Job I think the first friend in speaking about an evil spirit is an allusion to a second level of communication in most of the friends speech. I am not saying the meaning of the words change just a different perspective on who said them. Anyway read it over and let me know what you think on the thread.

[Canuckster1127]

B.W.,

The section - The Bible and Scripture - the post - The Book of Job - Openning page

I think we are to take the scripture very seriously. That means we look at any verse and see if it should be taken quite literal first. Then compare it with the rest of scripture and make sure it fits. If it does not then we ahve to look further. I am writing up a list of rhetorical devices I found in a Bible code book. I will post it when I am done in the scripture section. There are over 200 devices in the list. I think the Bible is written for the common man and must pass the common man test. I have heard some total nonsense concerning scripture and think that Satan must be having his fun, one day that fun will stop.

In my commentary on Job I think the first friend in speaking about an evil spirit is an allusion to a second level of communication in most of the friends speech. I am not saying the meaning of the words change just a different perspective on who said them. Anyway read it over and let me know what you think on the thread.

Frankly (no pun intended), I disagree with the approach of assuming a scripture to be taken first in its simplest, literal sense.

That approach, in my opinion, has fostered a great many misinterpretations.

The reasons I think it causes problems include:

1. It rips the Scripture out of its cultural context and makes our culture and language the defining elements. If God had meant to make our culture and language the primary medium by which our Scriptures were to be understood, He would have communicated them in that manner. As it is, there's some work required on our part to make that transition and failing to do that work, in my opinion, reflects laziness and disrespect for God's Word.

2. In order to understand a passage it behooves us to understand some basic elements which include:

Who is speaking?

Who is being spoken to?

When was it spoken?

What is the form of the portion of Scripture? Is is poetry? Is it prophesy? Is it narrative? Is it History? Is is a dialogue? etc.

What is the Historical Context of the passage? When was it written? Is the time of the passage the same as the time it was written or is it referring to something in the past, present or future (relative to the writer)

What language was it written in?

What is the primary language of those to whom it was written?

Are there any particular colloquialisms involved that need context in order for us to understand what was being said?

All this to say, the literal sense of a passage is what God inspired it to mean, and the best means for us to understand that is to understand what it meant to the person God used to write it AND what it meant to those in the original audience.

Sitting now in the 20th century without purposefully doing the work to understand these elements in a passage and simply using a trite formula to attribute the simplest possible understanding to an English Reader in today's culture may in many instances render the meaning, but in far too many other instances it will lead to conclusions completely foreign to the text.

This is something I feel very passionate about. I've seen for far too long in my life, the Scriptures put beneath the culture and understanding of readers either unable or unwilling to do the work needed to understand the passage in the manner that the original audience did. We are not the original audience. It is preserved for us for our benefit. If we don't do that work or use the tools we are blessed with by those who have done and are doing that work, then in effect, we are not giving the Bible the respect it deserves.

This isn't aimed at you personally Frank, as I'm sure you affirm some if not all of this, although I'll let you speak for yourself.

Yes the Scripture is written for the common man. That is why the NT used the common language of the day and not the academic and religious languages. The OT perhaps not as much depending upon the actual book and context when it was inspired and given.

True literalism for the Bible is not dumbing down the Scriptures to the simplest rendering or most easiest to understand thing for us. True literalism is giving the Bible enough respect to do the work to understand what the passage meant to the original audience.

It's subtle at times, but it is crucial.

[frankbaginski]

Canuckster1127 ,

I did not find anything in your post I disagree with. I only look in the context of many things the literal interpretation first. I agree literal has to be placed in time, who said it, etc. And there are scriptures that have more than one way of looking at them. Like Ps 2, which can be viewed as a conversation between the Godhead, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible is very complicated, more so than I am even aware of I am sure.

In the Book of Job there is an outline of the entire Bible.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 19:28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
Job 19:29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

The first and second coming, God as flesh
Resurrection and new body
Persecution of Christ and dying for our sins
Judgement

Now some may say that this was just the ramblings of a man in pain. I see much more.

[B. W.]

Canuckster1127, I did not find anything in your post I disagree with. I only look in the context of many things the literal interpretation first. I agree literal has to be placed in time, who said it, etc. And there are scriptures that have more than one way of looking at them. Like Ps 2, which can be viewed as a conversation between the Godhead, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible is very complicated, more so than I am even aware of I am sure.

In the Book of Job there is an outline of the entire Bible.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 19:28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
Job 19:29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

The first and second coming, God as flesh
Resurrection and new body
Persecution of Christ and dying for our sins
Judgment

Now some may say that this was just the ramblings of a man in pain. I see much more.

The bible is a book of deep meanings that the Holy Spirit illuminates too ones soul and creates understanding of things divinely inspired. Jesus stated that the Old Testament testified of him and it most certainly does. The book of Job testifies of Christ. It is a rich book.

The Old Testament also testifies of the Trinity, yet, most people do not see this. Back in 1981-1984 I went through the entire OT and color coded the different names used in the ancient Hebrew language for God Almighty so I could tell the difference between Elohim, Eloah, Yahweh, Ruach of Elohim, Elyon, etc, when reading in English so I could identify these easily. Accidentally, from doing this, I began noting how the grammar structure was related to the individual names, as well as in the combination of joining these names began revealing something about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Very amazing!

Now let us look at what you brought up….

Job 19:26-29, “And after my skin, thus torn to pieces, And without my flesh shall I behold Eloah, 27 Whom I shall behold for my good, And mine eyes shall see Him and no other - My veins languish in my bosom. 28 Ye think: “How shall we persecute him?” Since the root of the matter is found in me - 29 Therefore be ye afraid of the sword, For wrath meeteth the transgressions of the sword, That ye may know there is a judgment!” From the Kiel and Delitzsch Commentary of the OT.

Note usage of Eloah in verse 26…Wow!- If you only can see what this is saying in its deepness...

Now look and read these verses below within their full chapter context on you own...

Isaiah 53:5, “But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” ESV

Psalms 22:6, “But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.” ESV

Romans 8:34, “Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.” ESV

Luke 24:25, “And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” ESV

Please also note that a person needs to consider how the OT uses the nuances of each of the names for God [Elohim, Elyon, El, etc] before making a judgment on what side of the Trinity the name is revealing.

God Bless, hope this helps…
-
-
-

[Pierac]

Hi B.W.

Well Pierac, that comment sure takes the cake!!!

It is Jesus that speaks of Hell as everlasting and real. Please note that it is you that has to change the clear meaning of text — not me.

Therefore, Please post every scripture where Jesus specifically states that Hell is not everlasting or real...

Please show me where he does?

John 5:24, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people.”

Revelations 20:10-15, “…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever…. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Revelations 20:10-15 shoots down Universalism plain and simple — no need to add to God's word here to teach it does not mean what it says.

YLT Joh 5:24 `Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
The Rotherham Bible and the Concordant Literal Translation read the same.

YLT Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
The Rotherham Bible and the Concordant Literal Translation read the same.

Now, I'm not going to take the 3 literal translations as final word on the matter. I will try to help you understand where I come from on this issue, as I know you must think me to be crazy. I am well aware of what the Orthodox Church believes, as I too one believed in an eternal hell. I can only give you a taste of my understanding as it would take hundreds to post to cover every detail.

Let's review the Old Testament for the teachings of eternal torment

THE PERIOD BEFORE THE LAW.

Adam and Eve were never informed of the judgment of eternal torment. In Gen 2:15-17, we have this statement: "And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

This is the only record we have bearing on the subject; but there is no moral law here, which is declared as the future rule of life for them, and for all their posterity. They are simply commanded not to eat of the forbidden tree. Now, whether this is understood in a literal or allegorical sense, we cannot suppose that we have here the formal announcement of a divine law, which claimed the obedience of all mankind on the penalty of endless torment. We certainly cannot believe that God would open the great drama of our life on this earth, involving such infinite consequences, in such brief and doubtful language, and with so little specification where so much was needed.

The first transgression. Gen. 3:1-16. As this is the beginning of the sorrowful tragedy of evil, we may look for some distinct revelation of the doctrine in review, if it is of God; yet not one word is said in reference to it, nor is there any threat of punishment that can be mistaken for it!

The serpent is cursed, and the ground is cursed; but neither the man nor the woman! And observe carefully all the words of the sentence, and while mention is made of evils to be endured in this life, not the most distant allusion is made to any evil or punishment beyond this life.

Cain; or the murder of Abel. Gen. 4 1-16. Here we have an example of the greatest of all crimes, murder - the murder of a brother! Surely we may now expect the doctrine of endless punishment to be revealed; and it would seem that, if true, there is no possible way to avoid mention of it. This was the first instance of this awful crime, and, Cain standing exposed to the fearful penalty, this was the time to roll the thunder of its terrors through the world, as a warning to all coming generations! This must have been done, if true; and yet in the whole account we have not a single word on the subject, not the slightest intimation that any such punishment was threatened.


Noah: The deluge, or the destruction of the old world. Gen. 6:8 Here we have one of the most remarkable examples of wickedness and judgment recorded in the Bible; and if ever anything is to be said on the subject of endless punishment, we may look for it here with the certainty of finding it. The description of the exceeding wickedness of the people who were destroyed in the flood may be seen in verses 5, 11, and 13, of chapter 6.

The heart was given to evil, and "only evil continually;" "the earth was filled with violence, and all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Here, then, was precisely the time, here the circumstances, which required the revelation and preaching of endless punishment, if, as affirmed, its influence is retaining and saving. This was the occasion, of all others, to make it known, that, through its terrifying and subduing power, the depraved and corrupted people might be turned from their sins, and the world thereby saved from the overwhelming horrors of the flood.

And yet here, too, not one word is said on the subject in the whole account. Noah, who was "a preacher of righteousness," was not a preacher of endless punishment. No mention is made of his ever having breathed a syllable in reference to it; nor is there a single line in the record of this event, showing that God threatened this, or that any attempt was made to restrain or reform the people through its influence. If the doctrine exerts the favorable influence ascribed to it, did God do all He might have done to reform and save them?

But again; in the account of their judgment we are told that they were destroyed by the flood from the face of the earth, everything that had breath; and with this the record closes. - vi 11-17; vii 10-24. Now if, as asserted, they were not only destroyed by the flood, but were afterwards subjected to the tortures of the world of ceaseless woe, is it not passing strange that no mention is made of this - not even an allusion to it? Is it possible that everything else should be carefully related, even to the height of the waters above the mountains, and the number of days they prevailed, and yet that the endless and indescribable torments of hell, the most terrible part of the judgment, and the most important to the world and to us, should be wholly omitted, and that without one word of explanation?

Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Gen. 18:20-21 Here we have another instance of remarkable wickedness, and of terrible judgment. Yet, on examination, we find no warning given to the Sodomites of an endless fire, to which the soul would be subjected, after the fire by which the body should perish. The extreme wickedness of the people is set forth with graphic power, in the scene described in chapter 18:23-33; and it would seem a proper occasion for a revelation of endless punishment, if true; for such, if any, must certainly be its victims. But if we turn to the record, chapter 18: 24, 25, we find it contains no hint of the matter, neither in the way of warning to the Sodomites, nor of history for restraining future transgressors. If true, how is this omission to be explained in harmony with the acknowledged principles of justice, to say nothing of mercy?

THE PERIOD UNDER THE LAW.

It is now quite extensively known and allowed, by believers in the doctrine of endless punishment, that it is not revealed nor recognized by the Law of Moses. The facts in this regard are so palpable and conclusive to every diligent student of the Bible, that it would be difficult to deny that the Mosaic dispensation is altogether a dispensation of earthly rewards and punishments; that its retributions follow promptly on the steps of transgression. Both the records of the Law, and the history of the Jewish people through a period of fifteen hundred years, show this with a distinctness and fullness beyond all question. Read Chapter 28 of Deuteronomy for the complete list.

The entire history of the Jewish people as a nation, and as individuals, from generation to generation, shows with what exactness the threatenings of the law were fulfilled in judgments. When they were obedient, the Lord prospered them, and rewarded them with fruitful seasons, with increasing wealth and power, and made them superior to their enemies. But when they were rebellious and wicked, then followed adversity, defeat, captivity, and all the physical calamities threatened in the Law.

But all this while we have not one syllable of an endless woe which is to be added to all the other woes. In no instance of rebellion against God, not when their corruption and idolatry were at the highest reach of crime and blasphemy, do we find them threatened with the torments of a hell beyond the present life.

There is no doubt that Moses was acquainted with the doctrine of future endless punishments. It was the common doctrine of Egypt, as all agree; and "Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians." Acts 6: 22. And yet, knowing it as thoroughly as he must have done, he never alludes to it once in all his laws and penalties, but rejects it utterly from his doctrines and institutions. He will have nothing to do with it. He not only repudiates the gross fables and superstitions of the Egyptians in regard to the future world, but the entire substance of future punishments; and, by his studied silence, shows he has no faith in their truth or utility.

We could list hundreds of evil kings, men, and nations in the Old Testament and review the judgment placed upon them and not once is the doctrine of eternal torment given as a warning or punishment for their sin.

Next we need to look at the New Testament, as Jesus did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it!

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Eternal torment was not in the Law or revealed by the prophets

Most of this information was summarized from The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment by Thomas B. Thayer 1855.

Paul

[Pierac]

ENDLESS PUNISHMENT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?

Briefly, our argument stands, thus far, as follows: 1. If Endless Punishment be a truth, and the actual purpose of God from the beginning; and if it exerts the salutary and restraining influence claimed for it, then assuredly it ought to have been revealed at the earliest possible moment. This both Justice and Mercy required, as well as the moral and religious welfare of mankind.

We may, therefore, expect to find it announced in plainest language at the very beginning - certainly on those occasions of sin and crime which could not fail to call out some declaration of it, some threat or warning in regard to it.

But not a word do we hear of it on any such occasion. The first transgression, Cain, the Deluge, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, are all passed without a single line in the sacred record respecting it. The just inference is that it cannot be true, or God would certainly have said something about it, in the course of the two thousand five hundred years of the Patriarchal Period.

We next examined the Law of Moses, the entire catalogue of its penalties and threatenings; but in no case did we find the least allusion to the doctrine of endless punishments, or any punishments or rewards beyond death.

This period under the Law, during which we have no revelation from God of the awful dogma, but a studied and most remarkable silence in reference to it, if true; a silence wholly unaccountable, and which shrouds the divine character in an impenetrable darkness, and accuses beyond defense His justice and goodness.

This is the position of the question at the end of four thousand years, which brings us to the close of the Old Dispensation and the opening of the New. The inquiry now arises, Is the doctrine in review, so long concealed, brought to light in the Gospel? The very statement of the question seems almost to carry its answer with it. As if God could keep such a tremendous fact under cover for forty centuries, and then announce it in a revelation called preeminently good-tidings, or Gospel!

But let us see what is involved in such a supposition. If the doctrine be true, then the old patriarchs and prophets, and the chosen people of God, were all wrong some thousands of years; and the Egyptians, and Greeks, and all the heathen, were right. Those who enjoyed divine instruction were in error, while those who only had the light of nature for a guide found the truth of eternal torment.

John says (1:17), "The Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." This is intended to show the superiority of Christ's mission and revelation.

But which is preferable, the Law with temporal punishments, or that grace which brings in a dispensation of endless punishments? And Paul says that the Gospel is a "better covenant, established on better promises." But if it threatens this horrible judgment, not known to the Law covenant, it would be more fitting to say, it is a worse covenant established on worse threatenings. And how can Jesus be said to have "a more excellent ministry," if it involves consequences to the disobedient and unbelieving a million times more dreadful than any results of the ministry of Moses or Aaron? (Read Hebrews Ch 8 )
But let us proceed to the inquiry. Our limits will compel to utmost brevity, but we shall indicate the way with sufficient clearness.

If endless punishment really is the penalty of the Divine Law under the Gospel, and Christ came to save us from this, we may expect to have this fact announced in the most positive terms at the outset.

Luke 4:16-22. Here we have a statement from Christ Himself, at the opening of His ministry, of what He was sent into the world for, and if the great purpose of His coming is to save men from endless misery, He will surely say so. "The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the Gospel (good tidings) to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, and to set at liberty them that are bruised, and to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister (of the synagogue), and sat down."

Not a word of His being sent to save from a future endless hell; and yet He professes to tell the very object for which God did send Him! Now, if the doctrine be true, Jesus keeps up the same strange concealment which Moses maintained in the Law. He carefully enumerates all the lesser matters of His mission, but preserves a profound silence on the most momentous of all, the only thing, indeed, that brought Him into the world; and this too, just when and where He should have declared it in boldest terms.

And what is more singular still is this; reading from Isaiah (61:1-3), He leaves out a most important expression, viz.: "the day of vengeance of our God." He reads down to these words, and then stops short in the middle of the sentence, closes the book, and sits down; as if He would say, "I have nothing to do with this; I did not come to proclaim the day of vengeance, but of deliverance."

Can anything be more significant than such an omission as this? And how is it possible to explain it, if Christ did really come to reveal the day of vengeance against the wicked, and the torments of an endless hell?

But there are other passages equally significant. "God, having raised up his son Jesus, sent him to bless you," - Peter is telling the express purpose for which God raised up Jesus and sent Him into the world, and, if this purpose is to save from endless punishment, we shall certainly have it now, - "He sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." Acts 3:25, 26. And this, remember, to the very murderers of Jesus, men fresh from the hill of Calvary! If ever there was a time for revealing the doctrine of woe without end, it was here. If true, could Peter have omitted all allusion to it?

"He gave himself for us, that he might redeem us" - from what? endless punishment? No; "that he might redeem us from all iniquity." Titus ii 11-14. "Our Lord Jesus who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from" - a future evil world? No; yet, if this be the fact, it ought to read so; but, instead of this, it reads thus: "FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE!" Gal. 1:4.

Now, is not this a most marvelous thing, if Jesus really came to deliver us from a future evil age- from the endless torments of a hell which begins only after death? Plainly, if it be so, this statement of the apostle is a deliberate deception; for it not only conceals the main fact, but it substitutes something else in the place of it, as if to draw attention away from the substantial truth in the case.


Joh 12:32 'And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk Drag) all men to Myself."

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,

1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Isa 26:9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

What did Paul do to sinners that would not repent?

1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

B.W. this is just a taste of why I believe as I do. God is a God of Love and has a plan for all humanity, including the billions through out history who have never even heard his name. Would a God of love keep silent to 95% of His own creation? I do not believe so.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk Drag) all men to Myself."
Including the billions who have never heard of him!

***Paul was the great Apostle to the Gentiles yet, never taught the doctrine of eternal torment!

Act 20:27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

Paul tells us he declared the whole purpose of God, yet amazing remains silent to the idea of eternal torment!

Why do you think Jesus ask us to count the cost before following Him?

Luk 14:27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?... 31 "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?

What cost could even compare to eternal torment. This would be a completely crazy question. Jesus was not teaching E.T. here!
I hope this better helps you understand my view
Paul

[B. W.]

Pierac — you are wrong Jesus spoke of Hell as eternal what do you do with these scriptures:

Revelation 21:27, “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life

Revelations 22:12-15, "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”

Where??

Revelations 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Note:

Matthew 10:33-36, “…but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household...” ESV

You quote scriptures but fail to note that the Lord separates the wheat from the tares, wheat from the chaff — believers from non-believers — he came to bring division. You can quote all the positive scriptures you want too but you are denying Christ and what he taught about hell.

But again — to you, Jesus was but only an anointed mortal man and not God manifest in the flesh so you can ignore what Jesus says about hell and claim this doctrine as based on the doctrine of men. Jesus was not just a mortal man — he was more — God manifest in the flesh and yet - You do not believe this…

ENDLESS PUNISHMENT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?Briefly, our argument stands, thus far, as follows: 1. If Endless Punishment be a truth, and the actual purpose of God from the beginning; and if it exerts the salutary and restraining influence claimed for it, then assuredly it ought to have been revealed at the earliest possible moment. This both Justice and Mercy required, as well as the moral and religious welfare of mankind.

We may, therefore, expect to find it announced in plainest language at the very beginning - certainly on those occasions of sin and crime which could not fail to call out some declaration of it, some threat or warning in regard to it.

But not a word do we hear of it on any such occasion. The first transgression, Cain, the Deluge, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, are all passed without a single line in the sacred record respecting it. The just inference is that it cannot be true, or God would certainly have said something about it, in the course of the two thousand five hundred years of the Patriarchal Period

However, it is written:

Genesis 2:17, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." JPS

Note the phrase "thou shalt surly die" read in Hebrew like this —“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely DIE!!! Die!" The actual translation uses the word, die, twice — not once but twice.

Book of Revelation speaks of this second death being in the lake of fire. Even in the beginning God himself pronounced his judgment and warning and you deny this — amazing!

Jesus clarified that Hell is real and awaiting the final verdict — second death [Matthew25:46] You deny this — amazing! Those outside mentioned in the final chapter of Revelations cannot enter into heaven and you deny this! Amazing! The smoke of there torment rises forever and you deny this — amazing!

Universal Salvation of all people does not line up with God's true nature and character. He turns the wicked into hell not paradise, not heaven, but into Hell and that is in the Old Testament. Jesus says likewise.

Deny it all you like but the truth is the truth and God will hold you to account for spreading lies that lead others to their doom, unless you repent.
-
-
-

[Cook]

Deny it all you like but the truth is the truth and God will hold you to account for spreading lies that lead others to their doom, unless you repent.

Hi BW, I well remember we once had quite an involved conversation about hell a while back (2 yrs ago?). I hope you've been well, I really enjoyed that thread!

I would like to point out that the teaching that there is eternal torture in a hell leads innumerable people to reject God because it is so cruel, pitiless, and heartless an idea. Be mindful that your comment about being "held to account" for "spreading lies" and leading "others to their doom" looks just as applicable to yourself from the perspective of someone who sees eternal torment as being unreal and as leading people to reject God.

Belief in hell is a fear stimulus that certainly has prodded some people toward thinking about God and becoming followers. Fear is a crude and blunt motivator to the human mind, but there is a serious spiritual cost in that it twists the perspective solely onto the self: on selfish ideas of preservation, on selfish thoughts of doing something or another not because it's right or wrong, noble or not noble, loving or not loving, but because a person would selfishly like to avoid a hypothetical torment. Save their own hide.

I don't accept the idea of eternal torture, based on my readings of Jesus' teachings and based on ridding myself of selfish motivations for doing God's work. Spiritual growth can't be focused on saving self but has to be about giving to others and even forgetting self. It's not about each of us saving our hides by mentally believing one thing or another. It's about bearing fruit and loving one another.

As Jesus taught:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me"

"I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."

[Pierac]

B.W. wrote:

Note the phrase "thou shalt surly die" read in Hebrew like this —“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely DIE!!! Die!" The actual translation uses the word, die, twice — not once but twice.

Actually it's more like “A death thou shall die!” Adam was not made immortal! He was corruptible flesh! God never cursed Adam's body, he was removed from the garden and kept from the tree of life. With out the tree of life, man dies!

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

Gen 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.


B.W. wrote:

Book of Revelation speaks of this second death being in the lake (G3041) of fire. Even in the beginning God himself pronounced his judgment and warning and you deny this — amazing!

Actually it's more like a pond of fire!

Strongs G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.

Probably from G3040? What is G3040? Let's look?

Strongs G3040

λιμήν
limḗn; gen. liménos, masc. noun. A haven, harbor, port

This is weird don't you think? Some kind of pond or harbor near the shore? A haven?

Anyway, you are mistaken in what the Book of Revelation speaks. Just as you are mistaken in the belief that Adam was made immortal. Revelation is a spiritual book of symbols.

What is the second death spoken of in Rev. 2:11? It is regarded by the some churches as the "second bodily death", or annihilation of being and the final destiny of the incorrigible sinner. Most Christians believe in a Hell of endless death that never, never dies or at least a "Death that there is no resurrection from". The term SD is found only four times in scripture Rev.2:11; 20:6; 20:14; 21:8. The lake of fire and brimstone is spoken of, as Rev. 14:10; 19:20; 21:8 and Ias30:33. These words in the 14th,19, 29 and 21st chapters of Rev. are applied alike to all enemies of God and man. They state that sinful man, sinful spirit beings, sinful condition, false teachers and false government are all equally subjected to the action of the Lake of Fire. They do not say that the Lake of Fire CAUSES the second death, nowhere! Is there a deeper meaning here? This doctrine of the SD is in REV. The BOOK OF SYMBOLS.

Nowhere does the Bible warn man to beware of the SD, yet this seems to be a strange omission of God if there exists such an impending danger to His human creation. For four thousand years, God did not tell the world anything about a "Second Death". Moses and the prophets did not declare it; the apostles did not set it forth; Jesus did not even refer to it, or teach it, and Paul shuns any mention of it.

Some people think that Paul “hints” at it in his letter to the Hebrews, but the brave out-spoken apostle never confines himself to “hints” about any great truth, and he emphatically states that he “shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God.” The “whole counsel of God” certainly ought to include the annihilation to man, or an endless life of torment for him. Such a dreadful penalty should in all justice be very plain and clearly set forth so that man could avoid it.

But NO! It is left for the symbolic revelation of Patmos to make known this phenomenon and give a mystic warning against continued rebellion toward God. And strange to say, these same Revelations tell us that this symbolic Second death is a beneficent agent of God which actually destroys man's greatest enemies, Death and the Grave, in the same Lake of Fire.

God's definition of the FIRST death is “To be carnally minded” Rom. 8:6. For example, Jesus said “Let the (living) dead bury their (physical) dead ones”. Matt. 8:22 All were dead because of sin in them, and Paul says “she that liveth in pleasure (of sin) is DEAD while she liveth”. 1 Tim. 5:6. The carnally minded are dead to righteousness and God, and alive unto sin, sin when it is finished bringeth forth (physical) death. James 1:15. The body is dead because of sin, Rom. 8:10 and Gen. 2:17. “A death thou shalt die” is fulfilled. Although physically alive, they are dead, Eph. 2:1, just as God said. An impending death reigns over them in life, and finally consumes their bodies in the grave, but God gives ALL creation the word of hope when He declares that the second death destroys death (all death) and therefore all death conditions; that is, sin and the grave; for death is swallowed up in victory and the whole creation shall be brought in the glorious liberty of the sons of God. The second death destroys the cause and the effect of the First death; destroys it in man, and destroys it in the earth; for there shall be NEW heavens (ruling powers) and a NEW earth (worshipping people) wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If dying to God is the First death, then reversing the process and dying unto sin might well be called a “second” death. And “he who has died (to sin) is free from sin. No man dies to sin save by the burning baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the fire which Jesus came to cast into the earth. Matt. 3:11, Luke 12:49.

Malachi 3:2,3 gives us a picture of the fire necessary to purify and finish the sons of Levi (the ecclesia), and Rev. 14:9-11 gives us a symbolic picture of the lake of fire and brimstone, and the class of sinners that are cast into and are to be tormented in that fire.

Jesus plainly stated that every one shall be salted with fire, Mark 9:49,, and fire is always the destruction of something, or death of some kind. What then is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, or what dies in the second death — is it sin or the sinner? Search beneath the surface (or dig) for His treasures. Prov. 2:4. Jesus said He came to cast fire in the earth, and that it was “already kindled”. Luke 12:49. Was this fire to burn up sinners, or to purge away their DROSS, and take away all their “tin” (alloy). Isa. 1:25. See Hebrew.

Let us bear in mind it is SIN that God condemns and will destroy, but Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, 1Tim l:15, and make an end to sin, Dan. 9:24 (Rotherham). “He appeared to put away sin”, etc. Heb. 9:26. Does our Lord fail in his mission? No! Isa. 42: 1-7. The Lamb of God would not be “satisfied with the travail of his soul” (Isa. 53:11) until He taketh away the sins of the WORLD, not of the “righteous”, or believers only. 1 John 2:2; 4:14; Eph. 1:10, Col. 1:20, Rev. 5:13.

If everyone shall be salted, or tested and tried with FIRE (1 Cor. 3: 13-15), it is plain that thus every one must die to sin, or have sin burned out of their hearts in this present age, or the age that is yet to come. The Elect church dies to sin, and all dross is burned away in the refining fire which God speaks of in Malachi 3: 2-3, during the Gospel age, for judgment begins at the house of God, 1 Peter 4:17, in a refining furnace, for they also are purified by fiery trials. The Lake of fire is a SYMBOL to signify the fiery trial or judgments of the whole world. Another picture of the Lake of fire is found in Zeph. 3:8,9, where the final outcome of it all is plainly stated; that “ALL peoples may call upon the name of the Lord and serve Him with one consent”.

The unbelieving world is “cast into” (or compelled to go into) the Lake of fire and brimstone” which burns out by the Great Tribulation” (Rev. 7:14) every sin and everything adverse to God and His holy kingdom; “when the judgments of the Lord are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness. Isa. 26:9.

Adam, the great head, and father of the race of natural man, by his disobedience, lost his unity with the Creator, and was forbidden the Tree of Life. Thus he died unto God, and became alive unto sin, and “Sin reigned unto death”. Rom. 5:21; 7:5. Being cut off from the source of life, he began to die physically, and having no life within himself, he could only give to his posterity the results of sin, which was a carnal mind, bodily death, and the dust of the grave. Thus sin entered into the world, because all died (to God) in Adam and physical death followed sin. Rom. 5:12. The First death resulted in the grave, but the Second Death destroys Death. Rev. 20:14, 1 Cor. 15:26. If we can believe that this is really true, we will also see that the second death undoes the work of the first death, and if being carnally minded (Rom. 8:6) is death, then it follows that the second death destroys the carnal mind and all its works. The first death makes a grave, but the second death destroys the grave. Hosea 13:14, Rev. 20:14. The grave can only be destroyed or abolished by every human being having attained unto everlasting life. As in Adam all died (to God), even so in Christ shall all be made alive (to God). Not only made alive in Christ, who gives Spiritual life, or “The life that is Life Indeed”. 1 Tim. 6:19, New Version.

Adam was the head of the race for generation; Christ is the head of the race for regeneration. As seeds, the two heads contain the two crops. “All that are in their graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live”. They hear first and afterwards live. Adam was a son of God, with all that that relationship implies; that all Adam's children are children of God. Children astray indeed, but children nevertheless, who must be sought and found by Him who came to seek and to save the lost. Luke 19:10. All are lost in Adam, and none are found until they are made alive in Christ, which includes the spiritual change called regeneration. Restoring the natural Adamic life does NOT make any man “alive in Christ”.

Every human being is an offspring of God (Acts 17:24-31) and as such must in the great finalities of the ages come into oneness (or harmony) with the Father, and to this end he must first die to sin, and give up the “husks” of the earth, before he can live unto God, and come into his Father's house, and be clothed, and in his right mind. Luke 15: l1-24, Rom. 6:10-11. This ultimatum is required of ALL men, and will be obeyed by each “in his own order” (or band). Since Jesus came, the Spirit has been saying to the churches “He that OVERCOMETH” and has died to sin in this age, and has been “bound up in the bundle of Life with the Lord their God, CANNOT be hurt of the SECOND DEATH, nor has the Lake of Fire any power over him. Rev. 2: 11; 20:6 WHY? Because he will have passed through the purifying furnace fire of Mal. 3:2,3 and, like pure, fire-refined gold, there is nothing remaining in him to be burned away.

In other words, he who judges himself in this age, and is an “overcomer:, will not come into judgment with the world. John 5:25. The first judgment thus brings forth (or results in) life, so all judgment is unto victory of life over death. Matt. 12:20. Isa. 25: 6-8. they who pass through the first judgment as overcomers will come forth in the first resurrection, because they have “passed from death unto life” in this age; for judgment begins at the house of God. Who, then will be judged in the latter judgment and cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is the second death? ALL whose names are not found written in the Book of Life. ALL who have not part in the First Resurrection, Rev. 20:6, and ALL who are under the power of Death in any form; for the second death is the death of death, and all death is to be swallowed up of the victory of life. Isa. 25: 6-8; 1 Cor. 15:54 Who dare limit the fullness of these declarations of god, that He is the Saviour of ALL men, and will “reconcile ALL things unto Himself” — whether they be things upon the earth or things in the heavens. Col. 1:20; 1 Tim. 4:10. Death and the grave were cast into the Lake of Fire, and Rev. 20:14 distinctly says “This is the Second Death”.

Let me ask any thinking Christian if that scripture means that these enemies of mankind, death and the grave, are going to die the second time. You will say NO. Then why be inconsistent enough to insist that it means nothing but a literal death the second time for mankind. By this scripture you may see at once that it is not the number of deaths that God is indicating, but the KIND of death, or character of the destruction. I notice that writers on this subject who freely give a literal Second Death to human sinners are silent about “death and the grave” going into the SAME punishment, although the Bible boldly declares it.

Let us not treat the word of God deceitfully, but give it a “square deal”. Rev. 20:10 states that the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet shall be tormented in the Second Death, or the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. Shall be tormented (in this fire of Death) unto the age of the ages (RV), or until their victory over man is given up, and God becomes All in All 1 Cor. 15:24-28. Rev. 21:8 states that sinners of the human race shall also have their part, or due and proper portion, or share therein, and Rev. 14:9, 11 tells us what happens to them in this burning lake of torment. Rev. 9:6 tells us that “in those days men shall seek death, and shall not find it, and desire to die, and death will fly from them” (Diaglott). This is the “Sorer punishment” than death, spoken of in Heb. 10:29.

[Nothing is said about man dying the second time in this fire, or that it will destroy men's lives, and cause their second death. That interpretation is entirely a “tradition of man”, and is a worthy part of the Hell fire and Torment tradition which still dominates the majority of Christendom. In these scriptures, fire is a symbol, brimstone is a symbol and death also is a symbol, or else all three are literal. One cannot be literal and the others symbolic. Should the second death be construed to mean a literal fleshly, bodily death, then the Lake of Fire would have to be a literal lake, of literal, material fire and literal fire could hardly be used to torment the beast and the false prophet, and the Devil day and night forever, and it could not consume Death and the grave, which are conditions and not persons.


To be continued…
Part 1

[Pierac]

Part 2

Persons usually read into these symbolic scriptures more or less of their own views or interpretations, and therefore many casual students of Revelation read chapter 21:9 as if it read “But for the fearful(cowardly) and unbelieving, etc. etc., their part shall be in the Lake that burneth with fire and brimstone, which is their second death.” Now Revelation is a book of symbolic and spiritual meanings, and not a strictly surface record of literal, material transactions, and to assume that one part of a statement is symbolic (or allegorical) and the other part literal, with no mystic or hidden meaning, is treating the word of God ILLOGICALLY if not “deceitfully”. God says to man, “Come let us reason together”, which shows that God is willing and ready to “prove all things”, and asks us to do the same. 1 Thess. 5:21 No real Bible student will acknowledge that the Lake of Fire means a literal, material LAKE, or a literal material FIRE, yet with a strange inconsistency they make the Second Death a literal, material Death. If one is a symbol, the other is a symbol, surely, by every law of interpretation, and both point to ONE spiritual reality. Query: What is the objective point in God's purpose? Treading softly, let us suggest for your consideration, that the Greek “pur”, which is translated “fire”, and God's obvious usage of it, furnishes a KEY which will unlock some of the deep things of God, and reveal some of His “hidden treasures”.

Our English Bibles have taken the Greek word bodily over to themselves to form the basis for English words one of which defines the scriptural meaning of the Greek word “pur”. It is PUR-I-FY. From the same foundation word is another word which we find God uses frequently; it is PURGE, and it expresses in a different figure, the same results that PUR-I-FY does, therefore the Second Death, being Fire and Brimstone symbolizes PUR-GING and PUR-I-FYING by the “sorer punishment” than death; being the world's punishment of fiery trials and burning chastisements, warring elements, and a world-wide spirit of “every man's hand against his brother” The burning will never cease until the cleansing work is done, for God's way of teaching obedience, and making man perfect, is through suffering. Heb. 2:10; 5:8. Men may desire to die because the suffering is so intense, but cannot escape it by death, Rev. 9:6 and they will be saved only “so as by FIRE” 1 Cor. 3:15.

All Greek scholars know that the Greek word translated “Lake”, literally means “Harbor” and figuratively or symbolically means RESTRAINT, therefore a place of restraint, and the element of fire in the lake means sufferings, trials, tribulations, and being brought in contact with the very nature of God. “For our God is a consuming Fire”, Heb. 12:29., As there shall be “no more sacrifice” for those who go into the Restraint of Fire, they will have to be purified solely by suffering and “shall not go out until they have paid the utmost farthing” Matt. 5:26; l8:32-35, Heb. 10:26-31. Paul says “chastisement is grievous”, yet it works out in man the peaceable fruits of righteousness. Heb. 12:11. David says (Psa. 119: 67-71) “Before I was afflicted, I went astray. It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I might learn thy statutes” and Isaiah declares that when the judgments of the Lord are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Isa. 26:9, Zeph. 3: 8,9. Isaiah 4:4 shows that filth and blood (moral uncleanness) are to ye washed and purged away by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of BURNING”.

The principle once seen, that God's Fire, whether on a small scale, or a Lake of Fire, is to destroy SIN and DEATH, not man, then all is plain, and many scriptures are found supporting it. “Brimstone” is a well known whitening and purifying agent, and God uses it apparently as a symbol of work which must be done by extreme, or violent measures, just as Paul exhorts to deliver a desperately wicked man over to Satan; not to be tormented eternally, nor to be annihilated, but “for the destruction of the flesh (carnal nature that the spirit might be saved. 1 Cor. 5:5. And delivers other obstinate ones over to Satan “that they may learn not to blaspheme”. 1 Tim. 1:20. So God can deliver nations unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh (or carnal nature), that the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Sin is the Sting of Death (1 Cor. 15:56) and until the STING is taken out, death is still ruler over all men. Taking out the Sting makes men “alive in Christ”. A death to sin frees from sin and consequently from all death conditions, and so death is destroyed by dying to sin, which is heavens own anomaly! Rom. 6:6,7 When the second death destroys death, which is the last enemy (1 Cor. 15:26) and the grave, which is the Last Prison house, then the race of man is FREE from his enemies, and restitution of all things is due (Acts 3:21) for all things are reconciled to God (Col. 1:20) and EVERY knee bows in the name of Jesus to the honour and glory of God. Phil. 2:10, 11. The adversary is cast out, and the people fully redeemed, for God hath “TRIUMPHED GLORIOUSLY”, the horse and his rider (sin and death) “hath He thrown into the sea” (Lake of Fire which is the second death) Exod. 15:1, Rev. 5:13.

Human tradition says the “Last Enemy” that shall be destroyed is the Last Sinner that dies, but God says the last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death and the Destroyer of Death and the Grave is symbolically termed “The Second Death”. The grave can only be destroyed by man's resurrection and death is only destroyed by making ALIVE. If one man remains in the grave after the judgment (fair trial) then death still has the victory and is not destroyed. (Heb. 2:14) God's triumph is not complete, and reconciliation is not finished (Eph. 1:10, Col. 1:20) for God cannot be “All in All” (1 Cor. 15: 28) until Death is swallowed up in victory.

This subject is one of the deep things of God, and hard to be understood, seeing that we have become dull of hearing (Heb. 5:11) but he promised His spirit shall give us light if we ask for it. James 1:5. In great wisdom, God has arranged many things in pairs, or by contrasting TWOS, and records them for our consideration. The first ones may seem very good, and for a time acceptable, but the second ones follow in due time, and are found to supplementing, and perfecting, or else perhaps counteracting the first. The Bible speaks many times about God's First and Second things, and always set forth unmistakably the fact that all of God's seconds things are higher and better, and more desirable than the first ones. Perfection is always found in the second. Let us take for instance, seven of God's SECONDS with which we are most familiar. First, the Two Covenants, Gal. 4:24-31. The first one genders bondage but the second one brings freedom. Two priesthoods, Aaronic and Melchisedec. Heb. 7:11. One was limited in duration and lacked perfection; the other a more excellent ministry has the power of an endless life. Two “mysteries”; one of “iniquity” and the other “Godliness”, 1 Tim. 3:16. A first Adam and a second Adam. 1 Cor. 15:45. the First was the head of the natural or earth man; the second is the “Lord from heaven”, the head of the heavenly or resurrected man. There is First a natural body and second a spiritual body. The First is of the earth, earthy, and the second is “our house from heaven”. 2 Cor. 5: 1,2. The first natural birth; physical, fleshly and very good but “Yet must be born again” heavenly, spiritual, “from above” and infinitely better. John 3:3 At the beginning of the world, Death came upon all mankind because of sin, and finally at the end of the world (or age) a “Second Death” came upon all mankind because of sin, and finally at the END of the world (or age) a “Second Death” will be prepared to BURN AWAY SIN and its results (Death and the Grave) in the Lake of Fire, and so cleanse God's universe. Rev. 21: 1-5

The question arises, is the Second Death the same kind of death as the first, or is it a better kind, according to God's law of His OTHER first and second things? Many persons think it is a repetition of the first death, and that its results are the same, while it's action is more severe, and cruel, being by FIRE; and I have heard some Christians add very sorrowfully “And from THIS death, there is NO resurrection, but these added words are not found in scripture. The word “second” seems to convey to many only the idea of another exactly like the one gone before, but God's “seconds” are never duplicates, as we have seen but are always better, higher and more powerful than the first ones, and we can declare without fear of successful contradiction, that the “Second Death” is no more like the “First Death”, than the Last Adam is like the first Adam, or the Second birth is like the First birth. In fact the Second Death is just God's Reversal of the First Death, and all its attendant sorrows, and his complete destruction of man's enemies.

Examine the record for yourself. Read and study every text where it is spoken of asking always in faith for God's Spirit to illuminate His Word, and His eye-slave to open your eyes to see his deep things and hid treasures. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit sayeth. Rev. 3:13,22. All Bible statements prove that the First death and the Second Death are absolutely UNLIKE; that the two are opposite and antagonistic; that the second death undoes the work of the first death, just as the Last Adam undoes the work of the first Adam. The first Adam died to God and righteousness and became alive unto sin; the last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10) and Liveth unto God, and so “Fulfilled all righteousness”. The First Adam made ALL men sinners and and last Adam made all men righteous. Rom. 5: 18-19. The lives and deaths of the two Adams are thus in opposition — the LAST ANNULLING the First, and destroying his works. Rom. 5: 12-21.

On the same principle, God has established the Second Death, and we may rejoice in the results. No one will question the fact that the First death destroys life and makes a grave; and they cannot controvert the fact that the Second Death destroys death and also the grave. And thus “The Curse” is lifted. 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 22:3. “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it”.


Yes, B.W. Scripture teaches the second death is much more than just dying twice!


Paul