controversial scriptures

[B. W.]

Let's review:

Hell is real...

Luke 16:30-31, "And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

---Would anyone have of listened?---

Eze 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."

---Pharaoh is in the pit as well as others and they see---

Eze 32:2, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword." ESV-

---Those that go into the pit hear!---

Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!"RSV

--The shades - the departed lost souls speak...

Isaiah 14:15, "But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit..." - [Sheol and and pit describe the same domain]

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement is consciousness---

Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS

Proverbs 15:24, "The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath."

Ecclesiastes 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

Isaiah 5:14-16, "Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her. 15 Man is humbled, and each one is brought low, and the eyes of the haughty are brought low. 16 But the LORD of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness. "

Matthew 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Matthew 25:41,46, "...Then I'll say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 3:29, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin…”

---There is conscious existence in hell for the lost, if not, then it would not be hell.---

2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”

Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

---Hades in torments, seeing, speaking, reasoning, cognition fully functioning---

Psalms 88:4-5, “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength, 5 like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand.”

---Those lost who are in hell are cut off from God forever---

Psalms 88:10-12(88:11), “Wilt Thou work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give Thee thanks? Selah 11 (88:12) Shall Thy mercy be declared in the grave? or Thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 (88:13) Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? JPS

Now before you rejoice and claim that Psalms 88:10-12 teaches that the dead are not conscious, or confirms soul sleeping, or that this proves annihilationism or maybe even provides evidence of universal salvation - please note what the scriptures above reveal: The dead, hear, speak, tremble [move, feel], they go down to the netherworld alive, they suffer eternal punishment — not temporal, they are cut off from God forever banished, and that there is an eternal sin which negates all thoughts of universal salvation.

Therefore Palms 88:5-12 as well as Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not support that the dead are not conscious but rather something else: God will not work any wonder of salvation for those died that rejected God's salvation through Christ. These lost will not arise and give God thanks. They will not admit to God's mercy, faithfulness in the grave for not annihilating them. They will never know God's wonders and the glories of his righteousness in the fiery dark of hell - best forgotten but not left unseen.

We all know we will die one day, but those that forget the Lord know not a thing about God's faithfulness, mercy, righteousness, and they have no more rewards only what they have sown to reap forever, where all memory and experience of their deeds will never again happen and thus forgotten. Therefore the word destruction and destroy when referring to hell's just recompense in the bible reveals a state of endless ruin, eternal desolation, a never ending life without God — not non-being.

The dead [rejecters of God's salvation], hear, speak, tremble [move, feel, whirl, etc], they go down to the netherworld alive, they suffer eternal punishment [not temporal], they are cut off from God forever banished, where eternal sin endlessly negates any hope of universal salvation.

Palms 88:5-12 as well as Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not support that the dead are not conscious but rather something else. I pray that you see before it is too late. Since Jesus warned us about Hell's eternity, I would be a fool not to warn you of this also as I follow my Lord.

Truly…

Psalms 9:17, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” KJV

All Bible quotes not marked are from ESV

Next:

Hi Cook, yes I remember. You and Pierac you're primary argument is based on a presupposition that those that teach on eternal hell are dimwitted hillbillies who revel joyously scaring people into heaven while you take the more higher more civilized road. That is your opinion and not fact. The Goodness of God leads to repentance and it is his goodness that believers are spared eternal doom. Not to walk as Christ walked and speak as he spoke about hell's eternity makes a travesty of the gospel. Should we bow and tremble before men or fear the eternal God who has the keys of hell and death?

There is nothing more repugnant to human pride than someone telling them a great judge will hold one to account for sin and rebellion. It is a far cry easier to ignore this in hopes one is instead annihilated into non-existence or that everyone, one day, will be in heaven just because — we cannot believe in a God who can hold a person to account, fairly rightly, justly, sovereignly for finite sins. Then boisterously shout with sanctimonious pride to make God bow low to man's desires: “how unfair I'll never serve such God!” if that alone will change God's mind.

You speak much of love but true Godly love shouts and warns of harm. It is not afraid to rebuke in order to restore sanity to those running full steam toward a cliff. Love does not hide its head in the sands of public opinion. It warns — its shouts — it pleads and yet God's love will even let you go your own way but not without warning you first of the cliff in front and the pit below.

What of God, him, his ways, his design? Who are we, mortal creatures shaking our puny fits in God's face saying we can't believe in such God unless he conforms to the human court of public opinion? Read the scriptures above again — there are more that verify what I say without lengthy wordy explanations to twist away the clear meaning of the text and what God thinks of sin and those so enslaved to it who refuse him, his salvation, and plan.
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[B. W.]

B.W. wrote:

Note the phrase "thou shalt surly die" read in Hebrew like this —“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely DIE!!! Die!" The actual translation uses the word, die, twice — not once but twice.

Actually it's more like “A death thou shall die!” Adam was not made immortal! He was corruptible flesh! God never cursed Adam's body, he was removed from the garden and kept from the tree of life. With out the tree of life, man dies!
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

Gen 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Pierac check the Hebrew tenses again. It reads 'surely thou will DIE!!! — Die!!' and the word was mentioned twice! Why twice when one tense would suffice?

Next, why was a death penalty decreed if God did not design human beings to live eternally with him? The verse you quote in Genesis 3:22-24 shows first the relationship of the Trinity cutting mankind off from life with God so that humanity would not take by force the tree of life and live in our mortal fallen rebellious state without end. It was an act of mercy God expelled our first parents before they realized what the first death — Mortal death really meant.

Ecclesiastes 3:14,17, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him…17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work.” ESV

God made the first man in his own image and likeness — is that eternal or not? If not, then God is not eternal nor from everlasting to everlasting. The human soul/spirit began when God creates each in the womb. Jeremiah 1:5 gives an example of this. Therefore the soul/spirit has a beginning and what God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it - regarding eternity that he alone has paced into the heart of each and every person.

So if what you say is true then God created man to die and not live forever with him under his roof so to speak. Man was not made to eternally live with the eternal God and would have died even if he had not eaten of the forbidden tree? No where does it say specifically man ever ate from the tree of life. Only after the fall we get a clue from God himself that man has now in need of taking from tree of life so humanity 'shall not surely DIE!!! Die!!'

God created everything and saw it was good yet he did not want man to live eternally serving him so he would have killed man anyway even if he would not have sinned since man is not an eternal being. This is what in essence your argument is saying. Wow, so much for the goodness of God or God's great love you claim to know so well.

Now let's Reason

However, I would like to haggle over the Tree of life a bit more by applying your own logic. You said — "without the tree of life, man dies!"

How many times would Adam need to eat of it to live? If Adam and Eve had to continually partake of the tree of life in order to live it would not be the tree life at all but it would instead be like any other fruit bearing tree in the garden. Its fruit would therefore be no different than any other fruit bearing tree that man or woman needs today to eat keep this mortal frame alive.

If the fruit was only needed to be eaten once, as a true Tree of Life would do, then a single tastes of its fruit would make one an eternal being and never die. This of course is contrary to your doctrine as you stated 'that without the tree of life, man dies!' But God mentions that eating from it, one would live forever.

Now if the tree of life serves the same purpose as any other tree, then it cannot be the unique Tree of Life set out by God and marked as different than all the rest because man needs to eat from it all the time, or even sporadically to stay alive. Any common fruit tree serves this very purpose; thus your logic is flawed — logical falsies...

A True Tree of Life would grant eternalness' immortality by one simple taste from its fruit. If not, then it cannot really be a tree of life different from all the other fruit bearing trees in the Garden.

Your doctrine cannot handle a true Tree of Life granting eternalness' immortality; it instead has to reduce its uniqueness to the state of commonality with all the other trees needed to support mortal living. After all it is you who stated, “With out the tree of life, man dies!” Your logic actually makes the tree of life no different form any of the other trees our first parents could eat from to sustain mortal living.

It also means that when God saw creation and declared it good — it in reality wasn't because the flaw of mortal death hovered in the air unless Adam and Eve kept eating from the tree of life like they would from any other tree.

Now if God created man in his image and eternal likeness there would be no need to eat of the tree of life unless Adam and Eve faced some form of real crisis, they would be compelled to eat and thus become eternal mortal beings living mortalness forever. So the question returns — what crisis would cause them to take the tree of life to live forever?

Even if they did partake of the Tree of Life before the fall this would have made them eternal beings as it is God himself that reveals that partaking from it makes one live forever. A death sentence could only nullify living in a state of mortal being. Because what God does, regarding placing eternity in the heart of a person, endures forever and there was really no need for Adam or Eve to be eating from this tree and even if they did so before the fall, they would live eternally as that is what the fruit of this tree does.

Pierac, Your doctrine is flawed as it states that the Tree of Life was not a tree of Life as it was just like any other fruit tree need for food in the garden to sustain life.

Pierac, you know not the scriptures… You are wrong about the tree of life so nothing you state can be trusted....and you even deny the Trinity too!!!
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[Pierac]

B.W.wrote:

Now let's Reason

However, I would like to haggle over the Tree of life a bit more by applying your own logic. You said — "without the tree of life, man dies!"

How many times would Adam need to eat of it to live? If Adam and Eve had to continually partake of the tree of life in order to live it would not be the tree life at all but it would instead be like any other fruit bearing tree in the garden. Its fruit would therefore be no different than any other fruit bearing tree that man or woman needs today to eat keep this mortal frame alive.

If the fruit was only needed to be eaten once, as a true Tree of Life would do, then a single tastes of its fruit would make one an eternal being and never die. This of course is contrary to your doctrine as you stated 'that without the tree of life, man dies!' But God mentions that eating from it, one would live forever.

Now if the tree of life serves the same purpose as any other tree, then it cannot be the unique Tree of Life set out by God and marked as different than all the rest because man needs to eat from it all the time, or even sporadically to stay alive. Any common fruit tree serves this very purpose; thus your logic is flawed — logical falsies...

A True Tree of Life would grant eternalness' immortality by one simple taste from its fruit. If not, then it cannot really be a tree of life different from all the other fruit bearing trees in the Garden.

Your doctrine cannot handle a true Tree of Life granting eternalness' immortality; it instead has to reduce its uniqueness to the state of commonality with all the other trees needed to support mortal living. After all it is you who stated, “With out the tree of life, man dies!” Your logic actually makes the tree of life no different form any of the other trees our first parents could eat from to sustain mortal living.

It also means that when God saw creation and declared it good — it in reality wasn't because the flaw of mortal death hovered in the air unless Adam and Eve kept eating from the tree of life like they would from any other tree.

Now if God created man in his image and eternal likeness there would be no need to eat of the tree of life unless Adam and Eve faced some form of real crisis, they would be compelled to eat and thus become eternal mortal beings living mortalness forever. So the question returns — what crisis would cause them to take the tree of life to live forever?

Even if they did partake of the Tree of Life before the fall this would have made them eternal beings as it is God himself that reveals that partaking from it makes one live forever. A death sentence could only nullify living in a state of mortal being. Because what God does, regarding placing eternity in the heart of a person, endures forever and there was really no need for Adam or Eve to be eating from this tree and even if they did so before the fall, they would live eternally as that is what the fruit of this tree does.

Pierac, Your doctrine is flawed as it states that the Tree of Life was not a tree of Life as it was just like any other fruit tree need for food in the garden to sustain life.

Pierac, you know not the scriptures… You are wrong about the tree of life so nothing you state can be trusted....and you even deny the Trinity too!!!

Even a child could figure this out. The tree of life supplies immortality. The fruit of the other trees (not including the tree of good and evil) only feed the body. Adam needed the tree of life to “live forever” as the scripture tells us in Gen 3:22! This is why God removed Adam and guarded the tree with the cherubim.

It's not that hard to figure out B.W. Read it.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Notice the words here B.W. If someone might do some thing that means they have not done it yet! Are you getting this yet?

If I tell you not to rob a bank or the police might shoot you. This does not mean you have already been shot. Now do you understand?

This is why he is guarding the tree of Life. Because Adam has not yet eaten and obtained immortality. So I am correct! “Without the tree of life, man dies”! Adam and his offspring needed the tree of life, but he did not get it and they died! Just like God told him it would happen.

Gen 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

And you have not seen the last of it either. The tree of life still functions yet no longer as a shadow of things to come.

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'

Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Remember B.W. Rev. is Spiritual so don't get locked into a literal reading.

God made the first man in his own image and likeness — is that eternal or not? If not, then God is not eternal nor from everlasting to everlasting. The human soul/spirit began when God creates each in the womb. Jeremiah 1:5 gives an example of this. Therefore the soul/spirit has a beginning and what God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it - regarding eternity that he alone has paced into the heart of each and every person.

Your whole theology on the immortal soul is flawed.

1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

The answer here would be "God", not God and men!

1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

You are not getting it B.W. The body and soul are not two separate things!
Lets do a little research to help you understand!

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier's Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).
In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away they die.

Examples:
Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath(ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus' Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

If we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus' breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

The second definition of "spirit" is:

Spirit - The word is used of one's mind or thinking. It is often used of a man's mind-set, disposition, or temper. Purpose (VED).

This definition is still used today. An article in Flying Careers magazine called "The Spirit of Volunteering" had a sentence which read:
"Many organizations provide opportunities for those in the spirit."

This phrase sounds like something right out of the New Testament, but as we all know, the writer is simply saying that many organizations provide opportunities for those in the right frame of mind. With this definition we can better understand a verse like

1 Corinthians 7:17: "But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit (mind).

In other words, he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in mind, mind-set, attitude, thinking, or in purpose, which are all synonymous. We are told in Philippians 2:2 to have the same mind as Christ. Here are some other examples. Try substituting one of the given definitions where it says "spirit" and you will get a clearer meaning of the verse.

Numbers 5:14: "Or if a man is overcome by a spirit of jealousy."

1 Corinthians 2:12: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God."

Soul - To a Greek philosopher spirit and soul are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew however, they are not. Neither in Hebrew nor Greek does Soul mean something that is separable from the body. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words states:

"The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms "body" and "soul," which are really Greek (philosophy) and Latin in origin."

Let's take a look at some definitions:

Soul (Heb. nepes) - 1. living being, self, life, person. 2. The inner person, seat of emotions and passions (VED & The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (BDB)).

Soul (Gk. psuche) - 1.own self, the natural life of the body. 2. The seat of feelings, desires, affections, aversions (VED & Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (TGEL)).

In both languages the definitions are almost identical. When a person or animal receives the breath of life (spirit) he becomes a living soul (a living being). Example:

Genesis 2:7: "The LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life (ruah), and so man became a living soul (nepes)."

Here are some other examples of the usage of the word "psuche:"

Acts 15:24: "Since we have heard that some of our members who went out without mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind (psuche)."

Matthew 10:39: "Whoever finds his life (psuche) will lose it, and whoever loses his life (psuche) for my sake will find it."

These are excellent examples. Genesis is self-explanatory. Acts 15:24 uses the definition of "the seat of your emotions." When your peace of mind is disturbed it really means that you are emotionally upset. Matthew uses the definition of "life" for psuche. This is what "soul" means to a Jew. It is never used to imply that it is something separable from the body. Even the definition of "the seat of your emotions" does not come close. Your emotions cannot be separated from you. When you die, your emotions die with you. These are the definitions that one must keep in mind when reading the Bible in order to understand the meanings of the verses as the writer intended.

Let's review Sheol too!
Sheol - The ancient concept of the abode of the dead (the netherworld, in Hebrew, Sheol) supposed no activity or lofty emotion among the deceased (New American Bible Dict.). It is the final resting-place of all men. Sheol is parallel to Hebrew words for pit, hell, corruption, decay, and destruction (Vine's Expository Dict.). It is the final resting-place of all men until the return of Christ. There is no reason, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol. It is the sleep of the dead.

"For there will be no work, nor reason, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:10).

Hades - is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol.3, pg.7). It corresponds to Sheol in the Old Testament and New Testament (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament ).

I hope this helps, as you keep getting confused by reading the scriptures through western eyes.

Paul

[B. W.]

Even a child could figure this out. The tree of life supplies immortality. The fruit of the other trees (not including the tree of good and evil) only feed the body. Adam needed the tree of life to “live forever” as the scripture tells us in Gen 3:22! This is why God removed Adam and guarded the tree with the cherubim.

It's not that hard to figure out B.W. Read it.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Notice the words here B.W. If someone might do some thing that means they have not done it yet! Are you getting this yet?

If I tell you not to rob a bank or the police might shoot you. This does not mean you have already been shot. Now do you understand?

This is why he is guarding the tree of Life. Because Adam has not yet eaten and obtained immortality. So I am correct! “Without the tree of life, man dies”! Adam and his offspring needed the tree of life, but he did not get it and they died! Just like God told him it would happen. Paul

The Tree of life — Pierac you stated, “without the tree of life, man dies!”

Let us look further into this matter: If humanities first parents needed to eat off the Tree of Life to maintain sustenance in order to maintain life that would make Adam and Eve dependent upon eating from the Tree of Life to stay alive and since God stopped them, they died, and thus proves they were not created as eternal beings. For this to be an accurate line of logic, then through Adam and Eve's mortal state, each would have died if they never partook from the Tree of Life even if they never had sinned. This is in essence what you are saying. God's breath of life was death — not life and everything depended on eating fruit from the Tree of Life.

This defies the logic of scripture as this would mean that humanity was under the power of death the instant Adam became a living soul. Therefore, it would be by mortalness that death entered the world and not by sin because humanities first parents needed to eat from the Tree of Life to sustain life thus death was already in the world unless stopped by eating from the Tree of Life. It would mean that when God blew into Adam the breath of life — it was not life but death. However the bible declares, what God does endures forever, so when he blew the breath of life into Adam — it endues forever — not dies.

Since Adam and Eve were fashioned in the image and likeness of God — then would God die because his own image and likeness is not eternal? This would mean that death would have to have been already in the world at work in both Adam and Eve's mortal nature unless they ate from the Tree of Life.

Lets' follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion:

1-Pre-fallen Man cannot have possibly been designed to live eternally
2-Because Man is Mortal and needs to eat from the Tree of Life to live eternally
3-Mankind was designed to die and not live unless he eats
4-Therefore through mortalness death was already in the world

If death was in the world because of Adam's state of pre-fallen mortalitness then how could this scripture be true: “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day,” Genesis 1:31 — ESV

God saw his creation as very good which indicates it was Very Good and since it was Very Good — how can death be a part of pre-fallen mortal man and created within pre-fallen mortal man if all was Very Good? As a matter of bible fact, it was not until Genesis 2:17 that death was even mentioned at all and that was in response to sin/rebellion and not part of man's original eternal design. If believers will endure forever in their united spirit, soul, new bodies at the time of the last trumpet and beyond. Then man was designed by God to live eternally albeit on his terms — not ours.

If God can make the lion and lamb not devour each other in the new earth and cause them not to eat each other in the Noah's ark, please spare us a diatribe of dribble about death existing in the world of Adam because animals eat each other. No where does it say this in the Genesis as happening and is based upon observations from a fallen world conjectured unto a world created Very Good by God in the beginning.

Why would God tell Adam he would die because of disobedience unless he designed Adam as an eternal being designed to take care of God's own precious things forever? Adam could eat from the Tree of Life freely as from any other tree before the fall. It is possible that he could have and if so, as God reveals in Genesis 3:22, that just one fruit would mean immortality for those partaking of it. If Adam did eat before the fall - he became what?

It is also probable that Adam did not partake of the Tree of Life because he was made and fashioned in God's eternal image and likeness, that creation was Very Good, that he was destined to live as long as God, and that there was no state of death for mortal beings like him at that time. In other words, there was no need to partake because as Ecclesiastes 3: 14 states that what God does regarding what verse 3:11 says endures forever.

Now, as your doctrines so eloquently states from its interpretation of Genesis 3:22-24 that “without the tree of life, man dies!,” this would mean that death could not have possibly entered the world through sin but rather through God who designed man to die unless man ate from the tree of life.

Therefore according to your doctrine Romans 6:23 should read: “For the wages of Mortalness is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord;” and Romans 5:12, “Therefore, just as Mortalness came into the world through one man, and death through Mortalness, and so death spread to all men because all humans are mortal…”

However if humanity was design by God to live eternally because what God does truly endures forever because He placed eternity in the heart of every human being, then what God says in Genesis 2:17 makes sense: “…but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall DIE!!- surely Die!"

Death would have entered the world through sin and not by death already being there in Adam's mortal frame! Just as it is written: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord,” Romans 6:23; and in Romans 5:12, “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…”

If it was by “without the tree of life, man dies!” as you claim then the logic tree shows death enters not by sin/rebellion but rather through mortalness as mortality needs to eat to live. Which by the way is a man center works based approach to earn and achieve ones own salvation devoid of all faith in God's grace.

Before sin entered the world, there was no mortal death because SIN ENTERED THE WORLD through one man's disobedience not because death was already in Adam's pre-fallen state. If what you say is true, you must place death as already being in Adam's pre-fallen state since, “without the tree of life, man dies! and The tree of life supplies immortality” then death was already in the world and could not have not entered in - in the day Adam sinned. The only way mortal death could possibly enter in - in that day of sin's rebellion would be for a person to be designed to live eternally.

If Adam was not designed to live in an eternal state this would mean Adam had no eternal beginning. Therefore it would mean that Adam was designed to die thus God's creation was not Very Good, the image/likeness of God made in not eternal, God's breath not eternal, and that death was in Adam's pre-fallen state. So much so, he needed to eat of the Tree of Life. How could death enter by sin if death was already in Adam's design? He had to eat of the tree of Life to live — does he not? If Adam was deigned as already dying then sin entering in and causing death is not true because Adam was not fashioned to live forever to begin with.

Genesis 2:22-24 is in reference to Adam and Eve taking of the Tree of Life and living forever in their mortal state of Sin. It has nothing to do with Adam's state before the fall — only after. Nothing more — nothing less.

Only one conclusion: God places eternity in the heart of humanity where the soul/spirit of man/woman resides and thus we endure forever. The first death consists of mortal dying as the only means to punish an eternal being created in the image and likeness of God [breathed into by the very the very breath of God] and from this a more final death awaits later in the age to come. However, before one dies mortally, God offers a third venue - his offer of salvation through Jesus Christ, a washing away of sin, attainment of new skins provided by God, which is the only the means to avoid the pit of hell now and the second death later on.

Elihu had it right:

Job 33:29-33, "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. 31 Pay attention, O Job, listen to me; be silent, and I will speak. 32 If you have any words, answer me; speak, for I desire to justify you. 33 If not, listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom."

Genesis 2:17 makes sense: “…but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall DIE!!- surely Die!" [or translated - DYING you shall Die! Or read as …day you eat of it - DEATH!!! You surely will Die!!]

Next in regards to Pierac's Lake of fire comment being a size of a pond let me answer thusly:

Job 38:1-6, “Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: 2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements--surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone…”

How big is the universe, Pierac? In the new heavens and earth how big will the universe be? Therefore compared to the size of the universe — how big is a pond to God?

Job 38:16-33, "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? 18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this…33, “Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?”

Pierac, who are you to debate a pond's size midst the background of the vastness of the universe? A Pond that size would be bigger than a lake, or larger than the largest harbor on this earth. Your discussion about the size of the eternal lake of fire is about as relevant as debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when compared to what size a pond in mathematical portion of the size of universe is. Your definition of a pond has no meaning. You are walking on dangerous ground mocking God…
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Note: Unless otherwise cited all bible quotes are from the ESV

[B. W.]

Let us haggle some more on Genesis 3:22-24:

Now, as your doctrines so eloquently states from its interpretation of Genesis 3:22-24 that “without the tree of life, man dies! and The tree of life supplies immortality,” this would mean that death could not have possibly entered the world through sin but rather through God who designed man to die unless man ate from the tree of life.

Your doctrine cannot presuppose that man, even remotely before the fall of mankind, was fashioned to live forever. Not under any presupposition can your doctrine suggest any hint that God designed man as an eternal being because of your interpretation of Genesis 3:22-24 which you summed up as - “without the tree of life, man dies! and The tree of life supplies immortality,”

To even suggest that Adam and Eve before the fall were granted long-long life spans and did not require partaking of the tree of life right away falls flat because then they would still have died, proving that through mortalness death entered the world. Even if they did not fall and did partake of the tree of life - then they would become immortal would they not?

You cannot claim that mankind was not meant to live eternally by claiming the need to eat of the tree of life to become immortal. Was mankind meant to become immortal or not? At which time did this occur? If not in the intent of the design mankind was fashioned in, then when?

2 Timothy 1:9-10, “Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel…”

How did death enter the world? As your doctrine suggest — 'not taking and eating from the tree of life?' Or was it due to sin's rebellion entering the world?

Romans 5:12, “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…”

If death came about because of sin — then how could man have not been fashioned by God to be an eternal being? Mankind was designed to be an eternal being because the only immortal God created Adam in his [God's own] immortal image and likeness, blew his [God's own] breath of immortal life into man, and placed his [God's own] gift of life — eternity - within the heart of all humanity, because what God does endures forever. So that people fear, learn to reverently respect, marvel — God for doing this.

Your doctrine ultimately leads to the denial that death entered the world through one man's sin but rather it must absolutely assert that death came into the world due to mortalness alone — not sin because - “without the tree of life, man dies! and The tree of life supplies immortality,”

This denies what God said in Genesis 2:17, “for in the day that you eat of it [tree of knowledge of Good and evil] you shall surely die."

' In the day you eat of it' implies that death entered through Adam disobedience — sin - just as the Apostle Paul wrote in his epistles. This indicates that both mortal death and final death was not truly known to humanity's first parents. But God had a plan to restore a people back unto himself to fulfill his eternal purpose. After all, God test his creations — refines it.

Genesis 2:22-24 is in reference to Adam and Eve taking of the Tree of Life and living forever in their mortal state of Sin. It has nothing to do with Adam's state before the fall — only after. Nothing more — nothing less: God's test continues to this day…

God test the heart human beings to determine if a persons eternal home will be with him forever, or banished from him forever in Hell now, then later in the eternal lake of fire, where their torment arises forever — [ NOTE: it is their own torment — not God torturing them — their own wickedness bringing them into a state of never ending ruin]

Psalms 11:4-7, “The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man. 5 The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. 6 Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. 7 For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.”

Provebs17:3, “The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts.”

Psalms 7:9-12, “Oh, let the evil of the wicked come to an end, and may you establish the righteous-- you who test the minds and hearts, O righteous God! 10 My shield is with God, who saves the upright in heart. 11 God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day. 12 If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword; he has bent and readied his bow;”

Jeremiah 17:10, "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Matthew 25:41, 46, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. "

How long does eternal punishment last? How could it last eternally in the second death if humanity was not designed as eternal beings from the very beginning?

In Closing: Regarding the usage of Immortal used in the book of Timothy

1 Timothy 6:16, [context is about Jesus Christ],( vs 14Jesus Christ)…who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.”

2 Timothy 1:16-17, “But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”

Only God has no beginning or end and thus is truly immortal however these scripture speak of Jesus as God manifest in the flesh — which, Pierac, you deny as being remotely possible. If God alone is immortal why did he share part of it as eternal life?

2 Timothy 1:10, “and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel…”

For Adam and Eve to die — suffer the death penalty for sin's disobedience — would mean that their own mortal death was unknown to them. After all were they not partakers of God's immortal image and likeness and shared his immortal breath? They both understood they would not die and thus rebellion entered the scene.

Easton's Bible Dictionary states -- Immortality: Perpetuity of existence. The doctrine of immortality is taught in the Old Testament. It is plainly implied in the writings of Moses (Gen_5:22, Gen_5:24; Gen_25:8; Gen_37:35; Gen_47:9; Gen_49:29, compare Heb_11:13-16; Exo_3:6, compare Mat_22:23). It is more clearly and fully taught in the later books (Isa_14:9; Psa_17:15; Psa_49:15; Psa_73:24). It was thus a doctrine obviously well known to the Jews.
With the full revelation of the gospel this doctrine was “brought to light” (2Ti_1:10; 1 Cor. 15; 2Co_5:1-6; 1Th_4:13-18).

Romans 2:5-8, “But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.”

Matthew 25:41,46, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. "

How long does eternal punishment last? How could it last eternally in the second death if humanity was not designed as eternal beings from the beginning?

Pierac, for you doctrine to be true — death must have entered the world through mortalness and not through sin as the bible clearly teaches. You cannot say otherwise in any other form and remain true to your own doctrine.

Since it was God's eternal purpose to have a people that have been tried and tested and found worthy on God's terms, not theirs, to live with him eternally forever taking care of the precious holy things belonging to God then God did indeed place eternity in the heart of human beings everywhere. It has become now a matter of where you or I want to spend this eternity: With God in eternal life or in eternal living doom because one rejects him who is true?

Psalms 11:5, “The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.”

Hmmm — note it says God has a soul — what image and likeness was our first parent created in? Is God's Soul immortal? No wonder what God does endures forever regarding placing eternity within the heart of every mortal human being.

This flesh will die — the eternal essence of men and women will be judge by God at the time of mortal death and will be either sent to the pit, sheol [also revealed as the grave], alive, waiting there till the last trumpet sounds or reside with the Lord forever being with him now and forever when death becomes no more because life becomes eternal and death no more.

Job 8:19-22, “Behold, this is the joy of his way, and out of the soil others will spring. 20 "Behold, God will not reject a blameless man, nor take the hand of evildoers…22 Those who hate you will be clothed with shame, and the tent of the wicked will be no more."

Daniel 12:2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Hebrews 12:25, “See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.”

Warning others as well as making disciples of all nations is moot if universal salvation is a guarantee — why such warnings from heaven if eternal doom is not a reality?

Note: Unless otherwise cited all bible quotes are from the ESV
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[Pierac]

B.W. wrote:

Lets' follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion:

1-Pre-fallen Man cannot have possibly been designed to live eternally
2-Because Man is Mortal and needs to eat from the Tree of Life to live eternally
3-Mankind was designed to die and not live unless he eats
4-Therefore through mortalness death was already in the world

No B.W. these are your logical conclusions, not mine.

If Adam was created immortal then why was there a tree of life? And why did God have to guard it after the fall? (Hint-there is a spiritual message for you here!)

Another Hint (these are shadows and types of things to come “spiritual things”)

B.W. wrote:

Your doctrine cannot presuppose that man, even remotely before the fall of mankind, was fashioned to live forever. Not under any presupposition can your doctrine suggest any hint that God designed man as an eternal being because of your interpretation of Genesis 3:22-24 which you summed up as — “without the tree of life, man dies! and The tree of life supplies immortality,”

NASB Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Now tell me why is the tree of life now in heaven? And those who overcome get to eat of it? (Hint- This is not literal)

Need more help?

Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

Joh 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Again I will say, without the tree of life, man dies! And the tree of life supplies immortality! (hint-This is spiritual, not literal) as you do not have to really eat Jesus.

Are you beginning to see, the spiritual yet? Do you know what the tree of life is?

B.W.wrote:

Next in regards to Pierac's Lake of fire comment being a size of a pond let me answer thusly:

I simply pointed out the Greek word John used in that verse and showed the Strong's definition. I did not choose to put limne in that verse. John did so take it up with him.
Pierac wrote:

Strongs G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.

Probably from G3040? What is G3040? Let's look?

Strongs G3040

λιμήν
limḗn; gen. liménos, masc. noun. A haven, harbor, port

This is weird don't you think? Some kind of pond or harbor near the shore? A haven?

See, here it is, take it up with John, if you don't like the word “pond” that he used. Would you be happier if he said “ocean” ?


B.W. wrote:

In Closing: Regarding the usage of Immortal used in the book of Timothy

1 Timothy 6:16, [context is about Jesus Christ],( vs 14Jesus Christ)…who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.”

2 Timothy 1:16-17, “But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”

Only God has no beginning or end and thus is truly immortal however these scripture speak of Jesus as God manifest in the flesh — which, Pierac, you deny as being remotely possible. If God alone is immortal why did he share part of it as eternal life?

2 Timothy 1:10, “and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel…”

NASB 1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

This verse in context tells you who this unapproachable light is. God! Many people saw Jesus, yet we know from scripture No one has seen God! And verse 13 tells us God gives life to all things! Including his Son Jesus! Jesus was raised to immortality by His God and Father!

ESV Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

ESV Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

No one else possesses immortality as only Jesus has been raised from the dead by God who gives life to all, It is a gift we will receive at our resurrection at Christ's return. As the Father is the source of all.

[B. W.]

Let us haggle some more on Genesis 3:22-24:

Now, as your doctrines so eloquently states from its interpretation of Genesis 3:22-24 that “without the tree of life, man dies, the tree of life supplies immortality, and He [Adam]was corruptible flesh,” this would mean that death could not have possibly entered the world through sin but rather through God who designed man to die because he made man corruptible unless man ate from the tree of life.

Let us examine your doctrines statement: “Adam was not made immortal! He was corruptible flesh!”

Genesis 1:26 states: "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Now lets apply your doctrines logic here:

Point One - Adam was not made immortal

1-God made man in God's image and likeness
2-Adam was not made immortal
3-He [Adam] was in corruptible flesh
4-Therefore — God is not immortal and is corruptible [spiritual flesh — to coin the phrase]

Point Two Adam was corruptible flesh

1-God made man corruptible — made in corruptible flesh — death was in Adam before the fall
2-Creation was not perfect as death was already at work in Adam
3-God made creation flawed — corruptible since man was made corruptible
4-Therefore Genesis 1:31 is false — Creation was not 'Very Good'

Point Two Continued to its inevitable conclusion:

1-Adam made in corruptible flesh
2-Had to eat from the tree of life to live forever
3-Proving that Death was before the fall and within the pre-fallen design of man
4-Therefore: through Mortalness death entered the world.

Does you logic construct of your doctrine line up with what the bible teaches?

Would it not instead make God not immortal?

1-God cannot be immortal because his image and likeness — reflection was in man
2-God is corruptible because man was fashioned in the image to reflect God's Spirit — which as we can now determine according Pierac's doctrine that since Adam was of corruptible flesh [and meant to die] so, then, we can determine that God can die too as that is in the 'image and likeness' reflection…
3-What does the Bible say about God being from everlasting to everlasting?

Would this, in essences, make the state of 'being mortal flesh' the cause of death instead of sin?

1-Adam sinned [See - Rom 5]
2-Death entered the world as God said [Gen2:17 as the penalty for sin]
3-Therefore it was because of sin — not mortal flesh that death entered the world.

Therefore: The God of Pierac's doctrine is not the God whom the Bible reveals

Conclusion Pierac's Doctrine is false doctrine as it violates scripture

Also....

Pierac — please stop using bible passages that refer to humanities fallen, rebellious, corruptible fleshy state after the fall of man as a proof text for the state of Adam before the fall.

Lastly — Genesis 3:22-24 is in reference to Adam and Eve taking of the Tree of Life and living forever in their mortal state of Sin. This way fallen man could defeat God — becoming God (Gen 3:5) — by stopping him from performing his word — Genesis 2:17. God had to thwart this and did so.You see, the tree of life has nothing to do with Adam's state before the fall — only after. Nothing more — nothing less — so easy to understand a child can understand it but from what I read of your writings — I understand that you are no child of God.

If it is as you say that God made man in corruptible human flesh so that man has to eat from the tree of life to live eternally. This would mean that death was already at work in Adam the moment Adam was created; therefore, through corruptible human flesh death had to enter the world based solely on the fact Adam had to eat from the tree of life to live eternally and this partaking was reserved for later date and time.

Either sin caused death to enter the world as God so states as well as the bible expounds or it can only be through God's pre-wiring death into man's mortal corruptible flesh so that it is through mortal corruptible flesh that death entered the world because man was fashioned to die as he was mortal corruptible flesh. Pierac, Your whole doctrine hinges on this. It either will stand or fall.

So basically, Pierac, from your doctrines you are ultimately stating that it is the Tree of Life — its fruit is what eternally saves humanity and not Jesus Christ himself who eternally saves to the uttermost!

Does or does not Jesus eternally saves or is it the tree of life that eternally saves?

Bible Quotes from ESV unless marked
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[B. W.]

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Let us haggle some more on Plato

Plato's Thoughts On Immortality

Death is defined as "the separation of the soul from the body"; but is not the end of the soul. Plato believes in metempsychosis, the transmigration of souls from one living thing to another, and in reincarnation, the rebirth of the soul in new bodies. The Phaedrus offers proof of the soul's immortality, proving the existence of gods from self-generating motion. We are told, "All soul is immortal; for what is always in motion is immortal." A question is raised with this view: how do we know that the soul is "always in motion?" Plato says that it is the nature of the soul to initiate its own changes, to be self-moving, rather than merely moved. On this view, something that is self-moving "can neither be destroyed nor come into being." Plato believes that only a soul of a philosophical lover of knowledge and virtue is worthy of traveling beyond the process of rebirth to ultimate fulfillment. [Quote from my Philosophy Class Professor — Source unknown]

Pierac's doctrine hinges on the presupposition that Orthodox Christianity was Platonicisized and teaches Plato more than the bible. Does Orthodox Christianity teach Plato's idea of the Immortality of the Soul?

So Let us objectively Compare the two:

Plato's the Immortality of the Soul:

1-Plato believed metempsychosis, the transmigration of the soul from living thing to another
2-Plato believed in reincarnation — rebirth of souls in new bodies
3-Plato believed that the Soul is self generating — having no beginning or no end — always in motion and always changing.
4-Plato believed that only the soul of a philosophical lover of knowledge and virtue is worthy of traveling beyond the process of rebirth to ultimate fulfillment.

Orthodox Christianity

1-Orthodox Christianity does not teach the transmigration of the soul from one living thing to another
2-Orthodox Christianity does not teach or espouse in reincarnation — rebirth of souls in new bodies - it does not teach Hinduism
3-Orthodox Christianity states — The soul is not Immortal as it has it's beginning first when God breathed into Adam and at human Birth as Malachi 2:15 reveals — The Soul became eternal as a gift to humanity due too Genesis 1:26-27. The term 'soul's immortality' when used in Christian writings means the above — not Plato.
4- Orthodox Christianity states — states - that only those that believe in Jesus Christ, as Christ so taught, will enter heaven — class, education, intelligences matters not as God is not a respecter of Person regarding who can be save. Those that reject Christ will be eternally rejected by God in hell's containment and later in the lake of fire at the resurrection of the dead for everlasting punishment/recompense/living in their own Torment. Those that in believe Jesus Christ, as Christ so taught will enter heaven after death, to rest with Christ till the resurrection of the dead when each will receive their new bodies for the new heavens and earth — forever.

Now Note that :

The Doctrine of Universal Salvation on the other had has more in common with Plato because only those soul's who are a philosophical lover of knowledge and virtue can avoid temporal punishment and then those being cleansed by fire [hint Plato's cave] will become a philosophical lover of knowledge and virtue and then all souls become worthy of traveling beyond the process of rebirth to ultimate fulfillment..

Pierac you want to deny you teach Plato? We have testimony in ample evidence of this very thing on this very thread!

Also note that Plato was a philosophical lover of knowledge and sought knowledge from other cultures and civilizations and peoples of his day and time.

The Hebrew word for 'soul — nephesh' appeared in Genesis 2:7 and was written thousands of years before Plato — just as Justin Martyr so pointed out. Therefore you can piece together how Plato formed his philosophy on the soul by borrowing and twisting concepts form other cultures, civilizations, and peoples of his day and time.

In the words of Paul Harvey — “Now you know the rest of the story.”
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[Pierac]

B.W. wrote:

Let us haggle some more on Genesis 3:22-24:

Now, as your doctrines so eloquently states from its interpretation of Genesis 3:22-24 that “without the tree of life, man dies, the tree of life supplies immortality, and He [Adam]was corruptible flesh,” this would mean that death could not have possibly entered the world through sin but rather through God who designed man to die because he made man corruptible unless man ate from the tree of life.

Let us examine your doctrines statement: “Adam was not made immortal! He was corruptible flesh!”

Genesis 1:26 states: "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Now lets apply your doctrines logic here:

Point One - Adam was not made immortal

1-God made man in God's image and likeness
2-Adam was not made immortal
3-He [Adam] was in corruptible flesh
4-Therefore — God is not immortal and is corruptible [spiritual flesh — to coin the phrase]

Point Two Adam was corruptible flesh

1-God made man corruptible — made in corruptible flesh — death was in Adam before the fall
2-Creation was not perfect as death was already at work in Adam
3-God made creation flawed — corruptible since man was made corruptible
4-Therefore Genesis 1:31 is false — Creation was not 'Very Good'

Point Two Continued to its inevitable conclusion:

1-Adam made in corruptible flesh
2-Had to eat from the tree of life to live forever
3-Proving that Death was before the fall and within the pre-fallen design of man
4-Therefore: through Mortalness death entered the world.

Does you logic construct of your doctrine line up with what the bible teaches?

Once again this is your Logic not mine. Allow me to expose the problem with your logic.

You say:

:Would it not instead make God not immortal?

1-God cannot be immortal because his image and likeness — reflection was in man
2-God is corruptible because man was fashioned in the image to reflect God's Spirit — which as we can now determine according Pierac's doctrine that since Adam was of corruptible flesh [and meant to die] so, then, we can determine that God can die too as that is in the 'image and likeness' reflection…
3-What does the Bible say about God being from everlasting to everlasting?

Using your logic one could say. Would it not instead make God a sinner?

1- God cannot be sinless because his image and likeness- reflection was in man
2- God is a sinner because man was fashioned in the image to reflect God's Spirit- Which we know Adam sinned so, then we can determine that God can sin too as that is the 'image and likeness' reflection…
3- What does the Bible say about God being Holy and perfect?

Seems your logic fails to work here too! Just because Adam was made in the image of God does not make him immortal. Man is made in God's image not the other way around! God does not have to be a sinner just because Adam could sin and was in God image.

Therefore: The Logic of B.W.'s doctrine is not the God whom the Bible reveals

Pierac — please stop using bible passages that refer to humanities fallen, rebellious, corruptible fleshy state after the fall of man as a proof text for the state of Adam before the fall.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus paid the price for sin so why, if flesh is no problem with out sin, will we be raised in a Spiritual body?

I will tell you why…
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Death came about because of sin, not corruptible flesh. Adam's flesh was not cursed but the ground. Man was made corruptible from the day the dust was formed.

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope.

That's right B.W. NOT WILLINGLY

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Before Adam and Eve ever even sinned! This was all part of God's plan B.W. Adam was created to fall from the beginning! This fleshly life is nothing more than a training ground for the children of God. You are not here to have only the knowledge about Good and Evil, you are here to experience it.


Listen to what Paul is telling you here.
NASB 1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood (Earthly) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable (Earthly) inherit the imperishable (Spiritual).

I hope this helps,
Paul

[B. W.]

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Romans 5:12, “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…”

The bible is clear on this — it is by sin that death entered the world. Yet, Pierac, you claim the opposite and summed up your doctrine in these words, “without the tree of life, man dies, the tree of life supplies immortality, and He [Adam]was corruptible flesh,”

What you have stated is more in line with Plato than with Orthodox Christianity

Plato believed in a good immortal soul trapped inside an evil mortal body i.e. 'maimed by its association with the body' Republic X (611). Plato viewed the body, corruptible flesh which can corrupt the soul's pure goodness. Hence, through a series of transmigrations — the soul purifies the flesh and leaves the cave after becoming a lover of philosophical pure knowledge only understood in the light of reason (or for you — spiritual knowledge).

You claim that, 'without the tree of life, man dies, the tree of life supplies immortality, and He [Adam]was corruptible flesh,' leads one to acknowledge God's pre-wiring of death into man in order to make mortal corruptible flesh. Therefore the body is evil — like Plato said, 'maimed by its association with the body.' Only through a series of purifications by fire or 'spiritual, not literal, transmigrations' the 'Soul (i.e. creature/flesh as how you define the soul)' — the soul/body of man reaches a state of purity.

However, it is your doctrine of Universalism that blends the soul and body together by use of word definitions uniting these together as one — a living being — just a living body that happens to have a seat of intelligence, emotions, and will attached to it. When you read soul — you take it to mean an elevated part of the body; like a central control room or a 'bios' of a computer. God breathed into man and man became nothing more than a living body — a machine if you do not mind the expression, powered by God's juice, battery, energy, i.e. breath of life, which God takes back, reneges on, after death and then He patiently waits till a later date and time to charge, the dead again to life, at some future fiery purifying time.

However, God created man from the dust of the earth, the very earth He called 'Very Good' when looking over his creation. So for this 'Very Good' substance called Earth which God made man out of must not of been in reality 'very good' after all because man was made from this very earth into 'mortal corruptible flesh!.' Therefore, what the doctrine of Universalism ultimately teaches is that man was designed to die because God made man into corruptible mortal flesh from the very earth God Himself called 'Very Good!'

You cannot claim that, Romans 5:12 is true and then say man was made in, 'corruptible flesh and thus without the tree of life, man dies, because the tree of life supplies immortality. This would mean that through mortal corruptible flesh is how death entered the world because man needed to eat from the tree of life to maintain life everlasting with God.”

Romans 5:12,“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…”

Either sin caused death to enter the world as God so states as well as the bible expounds or it can only be through God's pre-wiring death into man making man mortal corruptible flesh from a 'Very Good Earth' so that it is through mortal corruptible flesh that death entered the world because man was fashioned to die as he was mortal corruptible flesh. Pierac, Your whole doctrine of Universalism hinges on this. It either will stand or fall you cannot state one thing as right concerning Romans 5:12, and then turn around in Genesis 3:22-23 and say another.

One last thing about quoting Rabbinic and traditional Jewish sources as the final arbitrator of biblical truth is that they denied Christ and have left a empirical track record of this such as changing the Shema's Echad to Yachid, and change the wording of Malachi 2:10 to read we, us instead of you/yours breaking the entire contextual flow of the book of Malachi referring to the 'you's.'

I am a big supporter of the nation of Israel and the Jewish people and understand that what Paul wrote in Romans 11 as true. So do not accuse me of anti-Semitism because I pointed out the Jewish Shepherd's biasness against Jesus Christ used within traditional Jewish and Rabbinic sources. When using such resources -use wisdom's salt.

All men and women have become corrupted by sin and therefore there is no such thing as a pure language. All language, including, Hebrew is weak with plenty of flaws. These modern sources may cite that their ancient ancestors did not believe in an immediate after life or that anyone immediately after death goes alive - is turned into hell, but a closer reading of Numbers 16:30-33 reveals otherwise.

In fact, it was the philosophers that taught that after death one vanishes like dust, mist, into the wind as that was the prevailing attitude of the ancient Greek world. Their Greek influence spilled over into the Rabbinic Judaism is matter of historical fact which pre-dates Christ and the Church. Have the Annihilationist and Universalist ponder this fact? They borrowed and refined philosophic traditions more than they accuse Christians regarding Plato!

They themselves borrowed and refined Epicurus and the Stoics teachings that the soul is a particular type of body spreading all the way through the actual body of flesh-and-blood making an organism animate and at time of death its soul/body is dispersed like mist: atoms scattering into the wind to nothingness or earning purification to bliss. The same thinking held by the majority in Plato's day as well as after! I think both Annihilationist in Universalist do not even consider that their doctrines came from the Hellenistic and other philosophic world views at all.

As for my use of logic — it is Universalism and Annihilationism that makes God a sinner by making man from Very Good Earth into a mortal fleshly corruptible being pre-wired to die.

Orthodox Christianity does no such thing. We honor God and how he made us as a reflection of his image and likeness - not a reflection of death. For those that do not think there is life after death, or that God would never send poor fallen sinful into an eternal hell read Korah's testimony:

Numbers 16:30-33, “But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD." 31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. 32 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods.33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.”

Deuteronomy 32:22, “For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.”

References on Plato used above:

First Link On Plato Enter here

Second Link On Plato Enter here

Bible quotes from ESV unless otherwise marked
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[catherine]

Here's a thought on this subject. Maybe our bodies prior to Adam and Eve's sin, were still corruptible in the same way as animals and it was only by eating of the tree of life that their physical bodies were able to be rejuvenated or whatever the process. The nature of the physical universe and all life is that it eventually dies. Paul speaks of us being given spirit bodies (Jesus said flesh and blood cannot inherit Kingdom etc) when we are resurrected. These bodies will not be limited to the laws of physics ie gravity etc but will be different in some way (Jesus was able to appear through walls). I think God knew we wouldn't pass the test of obedience and so we were not given these spiritual bodies straight away. The tree of life definately has some real importance but at the end of the day, I'm not going to worry too much about the whys and wherefores. I'll count myself lucky to get a spirit body.

[B. W.]

Here's a thought on this subject. Maybe our bodies prior to Adam and Eve's sin, were still corruptible in the same way as animals and it was only by eating of the tree of life that their physical bodies were able to be rejuvenated or whatever the process. The nature of the physical universe and all life is that it eventually dies. Paul speaks of us being given spirit bodies (Jesus said flesh and blood cannot inherit Kingdom etc) when we are resurrected. These bodies will not be limited to the laws of physics ie gravity etc but will be different in some way (Jesus was able to appear through walls). I think God knew we wouldn't pass the test of obedience and so we were not given these spiritual bodies straight away. The tree of life definately has some real importance but at the end of the day, I'm not going to worry too much about the whys and wherefores. I'll count myself lucky to get a spirit body.

Romans 5:12,“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…”

Either sin caused death to enter the world as God so states as well as the bible expounds or it can only be through God's pre-wiring death into man making man mortal corruptible flesh from a 'Very Good Earth' so that it is through mortal corruptible flesh that death entered the world because man was fashioned to die as he was mortal corruptible flesh. Cathrine the whole doctrine of Universalism hinges on this. It either will stand or fall you cannot state one thing as right concerning Romans 5:12, and then turn around in Genesis 3:22-23 and say another.

God cursed the earth when? before or after the fall of man? Please do not insert bible verses that are meant for the fallen condition of man into Adams pre- fallen state of Being. When God created everything and said it was Very Good - was it or was it not? Note: Animals did not eat each other in Noah's ark nor will they do so on the new earth which is a reflection of a return to Eden.

Either sin caused death to enter the world as God so states as well as the bible expounds or it can only be through God's pre-wiring death into man making man mortal corruptible flesh from a 'Very Good Earth'
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[catherine]

Why would God have the tree of life guarded by Angels if it doesn't imply that by eating from it you will continue to live indefinately? If you start to die when you sin, there would be no need to guard the tree surely??? Who knows, I might be going down a blind alley. Anyway, the Bible is full of themes that you could debate like this for the next 50 years. I could probably narrow down the things that I am really sure about - e.g God is love, Jesus came to the Earth, we will be resurrected. the most important of all these is to Love God and to love your neighbour as yourself - everything else is extra icing on the cake surely....

[Byblos]

Why would God have the tree of life guarded by Angels if it doesn't imply that by eating from it you will continue to live indefinately? If you start to die when you sin, there would be no need to guard the tree surely???

But Adam and Eve didn't know that .

Who knows, I might be going down a blind alley. Anyway, the Bible is full of themes that you could debate like this for the next 50 years. I could probably narrow down the things that I am really sure about - e.g God is love, Jesus came to the Earth, we will be resurrected. the most important of all these is to Love God and to love your neighbour as yourself - everything else is extra icing on the cake surely....

I like the way you think Catherine , the simpler the better, the way Christ intended it, right?

[frankbaginski]

catherine ,

The tree of life is guarded by cherubims, why not a simple angel? Because the tree is guarded so Satan does not have access to it. Satan is a cherubim so a cherubim is needed to guard it. We of the flesh can be blinded to it so we would not even see it. In fact I think we are. I think Eden is still where its been since the beginning.

(Rev 22:2 KJV+) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So the fruit of the trees would be on a lunar cycle. The leaves may be to forget the past? I do not know.