quit while I'm ahead.
![Wink :ewink:](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
catherine wrote:Hi B.W, I agree with you. That is how I understand those scriptures. I know though, that I may be wrong, but what I am sure of is that we have been offered a way to conquer sin and death through Jesus.
Agreed.catherine wrote:I've just been reading the previous posts and was very interested in the different understandings about 'death' and eternal 'non existence' as opposed to eternal torment. I like this scripture: Jer7:31 'They (apostate Judeans) have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come up into my heart.' IF it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale. My studies of the sciptures show me clearly that just as we did not exist before we were conceived, when we die we cease to exist again. Death is the opposite of life, that is why it was such a terrible punishment and because God is love (1JOhn 4:8) he will not torture those of His Creation who did not love Him. Jesus said love your enemies. God will show His Love to His enemies by taking away their life for ever, or rather he will put them out of their misery because as Jen said earlier, when they are resurrected and judged and see family members going off to be with Jesus and Paradise and they have blown it, they will truly gnash their teeth. The Biblical references to eternal torment and the lake of fire etc etc, are to show that this 2nd death is eternal, for ever and ever.
Not quite: You ideas do not line up with the bible…Katabole wrote:Catherine wrote
With the examples of scripture I've included here, I wanted to show that we actually did exist in the beginning with God. Yes, God created evil but it only ever developed in one entity, Lucifer. He's figuratively called the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28...
This is getting old — you are misreading bible to support your opinion at the expense of denying all other scriptures which are contrary to your point of view. People do this all the time. When the bible contradicts your beliefs will you be humble enough to believe the bible and not what your man made doctrines teach?catherine wrote:I've just been reading the previous posts and was very interested in the different understandings about 'death' and eternal 'non existence' as opposed to eternal torment. I like this scripture: Jer7:31 'They (apostate Judeans) have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come up into my heart.' IF it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale. My studies of the sciptures show me clearly that just as we did not exist before we were conceived, when we die we cease to exist again. Death is the opposite of life, that is why it was such a terrible punishment and because God is love (1JOhn 4:8) he will not torture those of His Creation who did not love Him. Jesus said love your enemies. God will show His Love to His enemies by taking away their life for ever, or rather he will put them out of their misery because as Jen said earlier, when they are resurrected and judged and see family members going off to be with Jesus and Paradise and they have blown it, they will truly gnash their teeth. The Biblical references to eternal torment and the lake of fire etc etc, are to show that this 2nd death is eternal, for ever and ever.
I apologize personally to you but please understand that it gets rather old debating that the Fires of Gehenna are confined to a trash dump no longer used as such, that since Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist, as well as Noah's world destroyed in the flood used as proof text to prove an Annihilationist point of view - In full disregard of what many bible verses amply point out is like beating a dead horse. Please grasp the implications what the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and Universalism has brought into the church: a denial of God's character and nature.catherine wrote:HI B.W, thank you for your reply, although I must say your attitude somewhat offends me. I think I know how Jen was feeling. I will try not to be disrespectful to you, although it may prove hard. I will need to re read your post and go through all your points. I am more than willing to accept I may be in error. That's the thing with human reasoning, it can be dodgy just like any other part of us, but having said that, that I can only use the brains I've got. There are many sciptures that would appear to support 'both' of these opposing views and as the Bible does not or is meant not to be contradictory, it may take some time in sifting through them and being sure about them. By the way, when you say:
'This is getting old — you are misreading bible to support your opinion at the expense of denying all other scriptures which are contrary to your point of view. People do this all the time. When the bible contradicts your beliefs will you be humble enough to believe the bible and not what your man made doctrines teach?'
that really peeves me greatly. I could say the same of you but I won't. It's that sort of unkind attitude that makes worse the divisions that occur between Christians. That may sound flippant, as I know there are doctrines that are so important that they are not under negotiation, e.g believing Christ hadn't risen (that was an early one that crept into the 1st Century Church) and the one about sinning greatly so as to receive more grace and forgiveness - wow that is so dodgy. So I understand that there has to be a balance in these matters of disagreeing, but please don't write me off just yet as an apostate. Enough of my 'telling you off'. I'm sure you lose patience if you are constantly going over the same old ground, but bear with me while I look up your reply. I will come back to you in a day or two and will support my position with scriptures.