controversial scriptures

[B. W.]

Hi B.W, I think this topic has three related points to be considered in order to get any understanding about this: what is death and hell? what is a soul? and does God maintain evil people and their suffering in a fiery place for ever? ….You think Eternal Non Existence is nothing to fear. I beg to differ, true if when I die I never woke up again, then I wouldn't know (it's hardly bliss if you don't know). Everyone is going to be 'woken up' at the resurrection and Judgment and when they realize what they have lost and see their loved ones safe and loved their sorrow will be so terrible I shudder to even think about it. Their punishment is going to be eternal: they will never be brought back to life or given another chance. Matt 10:28 we know that Hell is the grave, and Jesus is warning of losing your chance of life again. I hope this clarifies my position and I await your feedback.....Catherine

Hi Catherine, I already covered these points amply. I can copy and past again as well as review the use of the Hebrew word translated shades. I can prove that Soul Sleep, Annihilationism derived from Plato's Immortality of the Soul as well as other ancient Greek philosophers. I can review Ezekiel 32 again as well as every single scripture that speaks of life in the hereafter. The bible is so plain on the matter that it takes a re-structure of word meanings, and bending scripture to support the notion that one will not believe in a God who dares to send one into eternal punishment. God is not the happy torturer. The bible says it is a person's —Their- own torments — that what a person sows — they will reap. God's punishment consists of a person's own doings. But you will not see this so….

Let's try another approach:

You support a pro-life position. Where did this come from? You and I were made in God's image and likeness of being made intelligent and alive. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yet, how can you hold a pro-life position concerning abortion and not believe that God also has a pro-life position way beyond the ability that our finite minds can fully grasp? How then can God exterminate life, his gift of life that makes each of us fearfully and wonderfully made into a state of absolute extinction?

God has the sovereign right to make mortal life cease and then usher one into a state of spiritual life to just judgment beyond the grave because he made us, according to his own will, a spiritual eternal being [Ecc 3:11-16]. Thus is God truly pro-life. God will not abort this gift of life — spiritual life beyond the grave. That is contrary to his mercy and great love. Abortion defies love, mercy, and disproves responsibility for maintaining and nurturing life. God is a God of the living and not of the dead [Matthew 12:27].

Bible teaches from Jesus' own words that the Evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy (render useless) [John 10:10]. It is the evil one who desires people to be blasted off into non-existence, as this would disprove God being who he says he: A God of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfect, without sin, without fault, a God of love, A God all knowing, A God all powerfully able to work through all circumstance, scenarios, and things, to reveal and make his glory known. Such wisdom as this our finite minds cannot fully grasp.

God is capable of extinguishing all life, mortal and spiritual, into a state of non-being but to do so would prove God not all powerful. In fact it would make him defy his own standards of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfection; holiness, etc. Causing him to defy his own gift of life he gives freely as he so wills.

Man and women would love nothing better than the state of non-existence as punishment and so would the devil. The evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy. In perfect correlation - annihilation, universalism, and soul sleep doctrines move towards the same goals in complete defiance of all who God is.

Yet, many annihilationist claim an anti-abortion position, recognizing the value of human life but in turn denying the same about God in whose image and likeness we were fashioned. Making God out as the happy abortionist blasting people off into a state of non-being — reneging on the very gift of life he gives [Romans 11:29].

How can those holding the Annihilationist view be pro-life? Would it not be best if some people were never born and exterminated early? How about annihilating an entire country's populace on the grounds that it will help reduce the excess world population thus improve the quality of life for those remaining? The elderly parents — they take to many recourses away — why honor the elderly? Add to this warped mix of reasoning, Universal Salvation, and these twisted ideas can become a justifiable reality.

The Annihilationist, Soul Sleep, and Universalist point of view is an anti-life position no matter how many bible verses are taken out of context and biblical words are re-defined to proof text its validity. It justifies mercy killing but by whose standard of mercy should be used to justify the killing of whom? Such doctrines reason: “These that die — well poof they are gone into oblivion soon enough no more suffering.” But to whom should this apply? Or for the Universalist can also claim: who cares — all will make it so mercy killing would be quite all right!

Yet,for any Annihilationist to claim a pro-life stance in regards to abortion and the unborn is in itself a contradiction. Those unborn — blasted into the oblivion of non-being is an act of mercy —would it not be? End their fear early because when awaken at the last judgment to be put back into oblivion of no-pain-no suffering-nothingness they never known anything at all — how absolutely merciful! Or think of it another way: one can rid the world of the excess population so the righteous can live free and enjoy all the worlds resources unfettered! Add to the mix the Universalist creed and you get a justifiable - why not!

I'll admit this abortion argument is a bit extreme but it serves the example of pointing out the logical conclusions where Soul Sleep, Annihilationism, and Universalisms creeds ultimately lead too: the one whom the bible speaks of as killing, robbing, and destroying — the evil one.

God respects the gift of life he gives to each human being no matter how each abuse his gift. He will require an accounting of the past each has lived and holds them to it. God is not mocked, what a person sows they also will reap the bible declares. This is mercy profound - He does not make one non-exist! He is a God of the living...

Though it is in God's very power to exterminate mortal life and even make all life, mortal and spiritual, non-exist, he demonstrates instead that he is a God of the living, a God who will render each according to his/her deeds in an eternity either with him or in a place without him. God honors the very gift of life he gives proving what about God's character and very nature?

What would not be fair is not to warn of abortions wrongs, not to warn of sins sting, not to shout out that there is another way to truly live through Christ's blood free from sin's hurt. It would not be fair not to warn of eternal judgment that waits in the hereafter. Annihilationism and Universalism in reality declares and teaches to ignore these and look forward to extinction - not life and therefore these doctrines are not from God but clearly from the evil one.
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[catherine]

Hi B.W
Thank you for your swift reply. There is no need to cut and paste the previous articles. I have read them. You compare abortion with 'soul annihalation' through most of your reply. Quite frankly I am stunned and find it full of a (and if you'll forgive me, in your own words):'warped mix of reasoning' and abhorrent to me. You are firmly convinced of 'consciousness' after death and I accept that certain scriptures give that impression. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I will not post anything more on this subject as you know my position.

[BavarianWheels]

People are intelligent enough to understand the metaphor of cutting off limbs Jesus used:

I guess what you're trying to tell me is that I'm so stupid as to not understand literal vs. metaphor...nice.
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Not at all - in fact it was Mr. P that implied that about me. In no way was I implying you.

Sorry you took my comment the wrong way.

Re-read Mr. P's toward me again and see how Mr. P's discussion about literal interpretations were directed at me...

I would like not to be attacked that way again...
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Noted.
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[B. W.]

Hi B.W Thank you for your swift reply. There is no need to cut and paste the previous articles. I have read them. You compare abortion with 'soul annihalation' through most of your reply. Quite frankly I am stunned and find it full of a (and if you'll forgive me, in your own words):'warped mix of reasoning' and abhorrent to me. You are firmly convinced of 'consciousness' after death and I accept that certain scriptures give that impression. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I will not post anything more on this subject as you know my position.

Is it really? Well look again at what is really abhorrent. Catherine remember you wrote this:

“and I have found many sites that seem to hold the same view which reasonably and clearly presents this parable to mean this: the Richman represents the Jews and Lazarus the other Gentile nations. I won't go into too many details but I can show you some links if you wanted to check this out thoroughly. Trying to condense it down, Jesus was showing the spiritual gulf between the Pharisees and how they will lose favor or their privileged position. The tables will be reversed if you like and the Gentiles will be the ones to gain this favor.”

I stated this:

“How can those holding the Annihilationist view be pro-life? Would it not be best [according to this view] if some people were never born and exterminated early? How about annihilating an entire country's populace on the grounds that it will help reduce the excess world population thus improve the quality of life for those remaining?… Add to this warped mix of reasoning, Universal Salvation, and these twisted ideas can become a justifiable reality.”

You claim that you believe that the Rich man represents the Jewish People and Lazarus represents the Gentiles in Luke 16:22-23. Hmmm, The Rich Man represents the Jews awaiting extermination in the lake of fire — do you support Neo-Nazi ideas - I hope not- or is the source you cited speak of promoting a Neo-Nazi god that annihilates?

Now note what I stated about the Annihilationist doctrine: “How can those holding the Annihilationist view be pro-life? Would it not be best [according to this view] if some people were never born and exterminated early? How about annihilating an entire country's populace on the grounds that it will help reduce the excess world population thus improve the quality of life for those remaining?… Add to this warped mix of reasoning, Universal Salvation, and these twisted ideas can become a justifiable reality.”

What does your interpretation suggest? That is why your interpretation of Luke 16:22-23 is in error. Read Romans chapter 10 and 11 soon. Your interpretation of Luke 16 story of the rich man and Lazarus is quite offensive and contrary to other parts of the scripture concerning the Jewish people.

The Luke 16 account illustrates consciousness after death as does all the other scriptures you claim that do not. I amply shown these to you do I need to do so again?

Ezekiel 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."

---Pharaoh is in the pit as well as others and they see---

Ezekiel 32:2, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword." ESV-

---Those that go into the pit hear!---

Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" RSV

Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS

---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement is consciousness and they also speak...

Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS

---A congregation of the shades? How can this be if only one person is buried in their own graves individually?----

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS

Numbers 16:29-33, "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30"But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.” NASB

---Yes you from this example and Psalms 55:15 people do go into Sheol alive---

Proverbs 15:24, "The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath."

Ecclesiastes 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

Jesus warned of Hell as eternal! We must too walk as He and Warn!

Matthew 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Matthew 25:41,46, "...Then I'll say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 3:29, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin…”

---There is conscious existence in hell for the lost, if not, then it would not be hell.---

2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”

Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

All bible quotes note cited are from the ESV
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[catherine]

Hi B.W

take a chill pill. If I'm wrong then maybe God will show me, but I aint no neo Nazi! I have TOLD YOU CLEARLY that the parable Jesus was giving was NOT LITERAL but showing their spiritual state (which in actual fact will not remain so forever ie. all Israel will be saved). How many times do i need to say it's not a literal fire!!! You really do twist things and misunderstand simple explanations. The fact you believe what you believe does not make me view you as any less a Christian (well maybe up until this last post). I will not be commenting any further with you as I am obviously wasting my time. I would have taken the courtesy of sending this as a private message, but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

[BavarianWheels]

but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

Not to mention that's pretty harsh coming from a regular forum member...and this is from a moderator?
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[Byblos]

...and this is from a moderator?

Why, did you see B.W. anywhere using his moderator position to advance his point in this thread? Evidently you need to be careful as well where you lay blame. It is customary that when a moderator is engaged in discussion in a particular thread, he or she relinquishes his/her moderator duties to another (more neutral one). I haven't seen anything from B.W. to suggest otherwise.

Byblos (the moderator).

[BavarianWheels]

...and this is from a moderator?

Why, did you see B.W. anywhere using his moderator position to advance his point in this thread? Evidently you need to be careful as well where you lay blame. It is customary that when a moderator is engaged in discussion in a particular thread, he or she relinquishes his/her moderator duties to another (more neutral one). I haven't seen anything from B.W. to suggest otherwise.

Byblos (the moderator).

No...I see a moderator letting the heat of the discussion allow him to use name-calling to get his point across. Having done this, it only shows his inability to control his emotions and inability to keep the discussion moving as a discussion and not a slinging of words to hurt the other.

A moderator does not relinquish his duties engaging in a discussion...in fact his/her words can be interpreted as the thoughts/beliefs of the
owner(s) of this site.

~BavarianWheels (a nobody)

You claim that you believe that the Rich man represents the Jewish People and Lazarus represents the Gentiles in Luke 16:22-23. Hmmm, The Rich Man represents the Jews awaiting extermination in the lake of fire — are you a Neo-Nazi or is the source you cited speak of promoting a Neo-Nazi god that annihilates?

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[B. W.]

Hi B.W,,,take a chill pill. If I'm wrong then maybe God will show me, but I aint no neo Nazi! I have TOLD YOU CLEARLY that the parable Jesus was giving was NOT LITERAL but showing their spiritual state (which in actual fact will not remain so forever ie. all Israel will be saved). How many times do i need to say it's not a literal fire!!! You really do twist things and misunderstand simple explanations. The fact you believe what you believe does not make me view you as any less a Christian (well maybe up until this last post). I will not be commenting any further with you as I am obviously wasting my time. I would have taken the courtesy of sending this as a private message, but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

I rephrased my comment in an edit: Your doctrine on Luke 16:22-23 also offends the Jewish people -- Let's move on...

You cite a perfect example of what I have been saying regarding how people twist the word of God by relying on man's opinion alone and not what the word of God really says. They do so by declaring — IT is Not Literal! Jesus did not mean this because of this or that reason because some so and so said it it was so.

Despite the abundant list of scriptures that verify that after death a person is spiritually alive as a shade — you still hold the annihilationist position solely upon private interpretations. Fire can be literal or symbolic — the Orthodox Christian postions understand this — so do I. My example on abortion shocks you but the truth it contains should convict you that you are in error.

Let's continue with another point you raised in your prior post:

Hi B.W, I think this topic has three related points to be considered in order to get any understanding about this: what is death and hell? what is a soul? and does God maintain evil people and their suffering in a fiery place for ever? I will try to be brief and to cover the points you have raised as I go along. I haven't referred to all your points but hope my overall explanation covers them. Your first three paragraphs indicate you had not understood what I had said, or maybe I had not explained myself properly: The fact that you are 'dead' or no longer in existence, does not mean that's the end of you, or you are forgotten by God: Job 14:13 "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol (The Grave), That you would keep me secret, until your wrath is past, That you would APPOINT ME A SET TIME, AND REMEMBER ME!''. So 2 Pet 2:9 is in agreement with Job's sentiments I would say! The scriptures that support my views on death being the opposite of life ie unconsciousness, no longer existing are:

Gen.3:19 - we are going back to our pre created condition….

Romans 5:12, “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…”

The bible is clear on this — it is by sin that death entered the world. Yet you seem to be claiming that God created death within man. If that is so, then death did not come from sin, as the bible teaches, but rather form God.

As for Genesis 3:19 — as I stated before, the mortal physical body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God who made it. Upon retuning one is judge and from this one either returns up to the Lord as he so wills or down into the pit — that holding center — sheol, Hell, the pit, Ecc3:11-22.

God can extinguish mortal life and thus turn one over for eternal judgment that begins immediately after death and then forever on and on after the final sentencing when the body is rejoined with the spiritual part of man and sent away.

We are fearfully and wonderfully made in God image and likeness. Is this image and likeness consists of death or life? It is because of God's great profound unfathomable mercy that he does not annihilate into non-being.

Annihilationism has it roots firmly entrenched in the philosophy of Atomist / materialist traditions like Epicurus. For example, Wikipedia stated that, “Epicurus…believed that death was not to be feared. When a man dies, he does not feel the pain of death because he no longer is and he therefore feels nothing. Therefore, as Epicurus famously said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.”

You wrote this:

You think Eternal Non Existence is nothing to fear. I beg to differ, true if when I die I never woke up again, then I wouldn't know (it's hardly bliss if you don't know). Everyone is going to be 'woken up' at the resurrection and Judgment and when they realize what they have lost and see their loved ones safe and loved their sorrow will be so terrible I shudder to even think about it. Their punishment is going to be eternal: they will never be brought back to life or given another chance. Matt 10:28 we know that Hell is the grave, and Jesus is warning of losing your chance of life again. I hope this clarifies my position…

Just think of it — any fear and horror of seeing what one missed will just vanish away into nothingness! As Epicurus said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.”

Despite such claims of fear and terror seeing that one will cease to exist — in the end for the annihilationist doctrine — “All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain.” What is there to fear? You simply become nothing — so what?

Why should you shudder about this? They will not feel a thing and yet these whom 'you shudder to think about' will have gotten away with sin and shame by living a full good life! So therefore, if annihilationism were true, then God would be a cosmic abortionist — would he not? God would also be incapable of keeping his word by reneging on the gift of life he awesomely and wonderfully made. Mercy would lose all meaning. Justice defamed. How can God remains true to his own self- his own nature - his own character?
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[BavarianWheels]

but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

Not to mention that's pretty harsh coming from a regular forum member...and this is from a moderator?

Apparently I have something to apologize for since I received a warning via PM from a moderator.

I publicly apologize for questioning a moderator's choice of words.
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[B. W.]

but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

Not to mention that's pretty harsh coming from a regular forum member...and this is from a moderator?

Apparently I have something to apologize for since I received a warning via PM from a moderator.

I publicly apologize for questioning a moderator's choice of words.
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I re-phrased my comment...
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[BavarianWheels]

but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

Not to mention that's pretty harsh coming from a regular forum member...and this is from a moderator?

Apparently I have something to apologize for since I received a warning via PM from a moderator.

I publicly apologize for questioning a moderator's choice of words.
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I re-phrased my comment...
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Rephrased...why?

If you find the need to rephrase your comment...I wonder why I get a warning?
Let's see if the moderator will explain his actions against me.
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[Canuckster1127]

but felt I had to refute your offensive comment about being a neo nazi.

Not to mention that's pretty harsh coming from a regular forum member...and this is from a moderator?

Apparently I have something to apologize for since I received a warning via PM from a moderator.

I publicly apologize for questioning a moderator's choice of words.
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I re-phrased my comment...
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Rephrased...why?

If you find the need to rephrase your comment...I wonder why I get a warning?
Let's see if the moderator will explain his actions against me.
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Since you wish to question me publically on the point I will answer you publically.

If you have a complaint with regard to moderating or a specific post, please use the report post button and other moderators will deal with the issue if needed.

You were warned for the means used for your complaint by me, not for the content of it .

Now, please, let's move on and let it rest and if you have another concern you are welcome to bring it to mine or any other moderators attention and we'll attempt to deal with the issue promptly and fairly.

Thank you,

Bart

[B. W.]

+
Please understand that I publicly apologize for any hint that Catherine holds neo Nazi views.

Also please understand that certain doctrines have lead to the Holocaust that the Jewish people suffered during the 1930's and 1940's.

When I hear of some doctrine stating that Luke 16:22-23 is to be only interpreted spiritually by meaning that the Rich man in Hell are the Jews [Leaders or People] awaiting the lake of fire or something else... the hair on the back of my neck rises. I hope it would cause the same reaction in you who read this thread.

The Jewish people are still God's people by covenant and have suffered tremendously from people misusing the bible to support bad doctrine and bad teaching. Let us not make the same mistake here. If any doctrine, or purported teacher, uses Luke 16:22-23 to support, knowingly or unknowingly, any form of promotion of any form of prejudice against the Jewish people — We all should make it known as brashly as we can. Such doctrines should be called into question and abandoned by those who hold them as evidence that the doctrine they hold is in error as it supported the Holocaust - least we forget due to the passage of time.

I understand that there are people who do not think such interpretations of Luke 16:22-23 are wrong because they have and hold no ill will towards the Jewish people. All I ask of you is to understand why I made my comments on this matter because this very doctrine and its forms has historically lead to the slaughter of millions.

So I beg you to re-examine your teachers doctrine on Luke 16:22-23 and see the historical ramifications this has wrought. I can't remember who said this but it went something like this: He who does not heed the lessons from the past are doomed to repeat them.
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[catherine]

I would like to make it absolutely clear that I in no way intended any hint or reference to anything that could be construed as neo nazi or racist even. I actually feel sick to think anyone COULD possibly read my earlier posts in this way. I CLEARLY stated the SYMBOLIC language used by Jesus. He was condemning the scribes and pharisees of His day, (it is more them that the Richman represents, rather than the Jewish people as a nation). I did quote the scripture where Jesus said that the Kingdon would be taken from them and given to another people (ie the Kingdom was then opened up to the Gentiles, though not excluding Jews who believe and in actual fact , this situation will not remain always the case, ie. 'all Israel will be saved'). If any one reads my earlier postings, I hope I have explained my position in a clear, thoughtful way. I stress again, I do not view God as an abortionist, as I think was also implied, and I know that we are all equal to God. I hope this clears up any confusion any one may have had and thank you to all those, who have read my posts and engaged in healthy debate, without 'falling out' with me or offending me.